Ianmcnll,
I have no doubt and agree with you 100% in that the PSR-3000 sounds good, and has great features. That's I will not dispute. However, the PSR-3000 has basically the same build quality as the PSR-2000/2100. On top of that Yamaha is still using the most crappy pitchbend and modulation wheels I've ever used on a keyboard in my life. I can't believe they would put something of such poor quality on a keyboard selling for $1,500.

My playing style relies greatly on the pitch and mod wheels, and I need a good quality pair. Also I do not like the key action of the PSR's. I don't like the smaller keys, and I don't like how short the "throw" is on them before you bottom out.

If I bought the PSR-3000, I would be midi'd up to my board with 76 keys and way better quality wheels. Again however I'm not spending $1,500 on a keyboard that would require me to midi it up to another just for a decent set of keys and wheels.

A while back I bought a PSR-2000 from a forum member (I knew I wouldn't like the keys and wheels, but I still have my board with 76 keys). It wasn't a problem for me to midi that board because the seller sold it for a REALLY good price.

For $1,500 I expect a board to have at the minimal decent keys and mod wheels, and the construction to be of better quality.

Look at the Korg PA-50 and Triton Le. Lower models, but hey look at their prices too. Only $1,000 for those units.

I did however consider the PSR-1,500, but after talking to others, I found the general opinion of this board was that it was basically a PSR-2000/2100 with a different body. One thing I'd want is the mega voices, mainly the guitars and mega bass. Damn do those mega voices sound good.

Anywho when the PSR-3000 comes down in price I'll probably pick one up. Then it (to me) would be worth it considering the build quality.

Squeak

You win Squeak!

Exactly the same reason I've resisted the temptation to buy a PSR3000 Squeak. Every pitch wheel on every PSR I had or tried in the past was flimsy and on my 740 it broke ( twice ). I didn't have my 530 or either of my 2000's long enough for the pitch wheels to break, but I am quite sure it's likely that if I did have them a while, they would have broken. OTOH, I've had and played the hell out of my Motif ES for well over 2 years now, and the pitch / mod wheels feel as solid as the day I bought it.

I agree 100 % with you too Gary. If you can't play or entertain worth a lick, it isn't going to matter much at all what equipment you bring to perform with. OTOH, Fran and Squeak are spot on. Personally, I couldn't care less whether the drum symbols are on the keys or not, but if I actually needed to look at them to play "drums" ( or anything else ), then I simply haven't practiced enough. I use different slightly different fingering than Fran does, but basically use the same hands to play the same drum instruments.

AJ

****

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

Posted by Ianmcnll:
---------------------------------------------
People who use the pitch/mod wheels incorrectly are bound to experience problems.
---------------------------------------------

You've GOT to be joking! It's not inexperience of a (seasoned) player that breaks the wheels. It's when big multi-billion dollar company like Yamaha takes short cuts and uses (paper clips) for return springs is when the wheels break.

Have you ever put your hands on the wheels of a Yamaha Motif? That is what a pitchbend wheel should feel like. It's the absolute crappy construction of those wheels that actually "limit" what one can do.

My playing techniques are not in any way hard or abusive on the wheels. If I used the pitchbend wheels the same way I do on my Casio WK on a Yamaha PSR, then yeah they'd break. Get my drift? My CASIO (my $380.00 Casio) beats the Yammie's HANDS DOWN!

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-07-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-07-2006).]

My dear man,you must not get upset.

I made no implication you used the wheels improperly.My statements were merely from my own long term experience with pitch wheels of varying quality.
A firm but delicate touch makes a big difference,no matter how the wheel is constructed.It is easy to make the PSR-3000 respond properly once the limitations of the wheel are understood.
Again,I applaud the 3k for being a real bargain in a field of competitors that can't come near it's "bang for the buck".
Read upon it Squeak...read what Keyboard magazine said about it...read what is being said on the internet...but,please don't get upset.
We are only discussing,not arguing,my friend.

The pitchbend wheel on the 3k and below work well for regular (simple) bends. However, there are other techniques that other players (and those of us who are guitar players as well for example) have learned to use the pitchbend wheels (alone) to achieve a more realistic guitar effect.

This can ONLY be done on a keyboard with GOOD wheels. Every board I've worked onthat had good quality wheels was capable of doing this. My Casio WK does it no problem, my old MZ-2000 did it with no problem, my old Yamaha EX-7 did a great job at this along with a few others. However, because of the low quality of the PSR's wheels, it can't be done. Believe me I tried on many occasions to do this. It just can't be done. The spring mechanism within the wheel prevents this.

I've seen many keyboard players play the wheels the same way I do for guitar and sax voices. It's not an uncommon technique at all. Good wheels and joysticks can handle it, but the PSR's wheels can't keep up.

I've read the reviews and so forth, sure the 3000 got good reviews for the features and sound quality, but regardless of how well the review is written, the (fact) remains that the PSR's wheels are of very low quality, and cannot perform as those found on many other boards (including inexpensive Casio's).

Plus your statement was:
---------------------------------------------
People who use the pitch/mod wheels incorrectly are bound to experience problems.
---------------------------------------------
How else is one to read that? You basically said the wheels break because of peoples incorrect use.

That's not the case at all. It doesn't take a seasoned pro with 30 or more years to see that Yammie really went cheap in this area. Take a look at the pitch and mod wheel on the Tyros. They're good quality because they come from their synth line. It wouldn't kill Yamaha or break their budgets to put those wheels on the PSR-3000.

Squeak

I won't get upset, just strongly disagree. If you like your 3k, that's fine with me. A lot of folks don't care for my favorite instruments, and that's fine too. It's whatever works for the player, and the 3k just isn't it for me. I play my keys and my wheels hard. That's just the way it is.

It's a "feel" thing and it's my individual touch, and ya know what... it seems to serve me pretty well, for my particular style of play. I'm a synthesist at heart, and have been playing them for decades, so I have a pretty fair grasp and utilizing most or all of the tricks, aftertouch, knobs, ribbon controllers, wheels, etc.

I want something that springs back or has some feel to it. I don't like a soft touch, and while I'm sure that there are others who do, I'm pretty certain that doesn't make me any less experienced a player than anyone who does.

For someone to suggest that someone else is playing incorrectly or with inexperience if they are not using keys and accessories ( pitch wheel in this instance ) with a similar attack or approach vs playing a violin.... kinda gives me the impression that you might be a Yamaha salesperson or that you may not be a very experienced player.

Perhaps I might think of that attack IF I were attempting to emulate a violin using multisamples, but if for instance, I want to play something like the "Lucky Man" solo, I think maybe I'll continue to use my keys the way I have been, since it seems to have been working fairly well for me for a lot of years. Thanks for the attempt at a synth lesson though..

On another note, DNJ and I have discussed this one before, although I like the silver beasts, I don't care either way. I had a love hate relationship with my M1. It looked fine, and the keys felt great, but the eprom gave me fits. I had to have the internal memory reloaded a couple of times. When it was working right though, it was a joy to play. I recently tried out the software M1, and it works like a charm. No bugs and no Eprom issues, and it sounds exactly like the original as I remember it. The only downside is having to use the USB dongle thing, but for this collection, I'll live with it.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-07-2006).]

I do not wish to imply that people are inexperienced if they don't use the wheels on the 3k correctly(or,better still,within their limits),and I truly don't wish to offend the egos of people who have all the chops and tricks down cold.
To prevent that from happening,let me state that if I (notice carefully the word"I") use a controller beyond what it has been designed for,and it breaks or gives problems,then obviously it is because I failed to adapt to it's limits.
Adapting to limitations in musical instruments,and continuing to make acceptable (or better) music has in my opinion,always been the signature of a true professional.All instruments have limits,and to go beyond them and expect great results,does not make sense.
The pitch wheels are made for bending pitch(hence the name)and used properly ,will give no problems.That is not an assumption...that is a fact.If they don't do the job for the player who needs (or expects) more,it makes sense to use another instrument(or controller).
If the wheels don't feel strong,why tempt fate by using them beyond what they were meant to do.I understand very well,the technique you described,and have managed it quite well on the 3k,albeit with practice and patience for the wheel's limits.
The "Lucky Man" solo was predominately a portamento (actually a "glide"effect, A "Real" Modular Moog has exponential glide...though the Mini has linear),but the portamento on the 3k and others will work fine,while not being totally accurate.Again,it means working within limitations.
I don't sell Yamahas,I demonstrate them (and Rolands,and Korgs...) and have done so for 30 years ,although my choice in the last few years has leaned towards Yamaha(we all have our favorites) because I feel they are ahead of the rest in many areas,if not all.If that changes,I'll use something else.
This forum has always had people with strong opinions,and that's what has made it all the more interesting and even intriguing .I have my own,and as you can tell,they aren't easily changed,but I am no different than others who do the same.
Thank you for your understanding and open mindedness...and your strong opinions.

Hmm, you don't sell them.. you demonstrate them... I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like sales to me. Your use of the word "correctly" when defining use of the pitch wheel smacks of it. But... as you said.. strong opinions... so.... I won't try to change your mind.. you certainly won't change mine.


AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-08-2006).]