Some here may disagree, but I just had a thought about something. I was listening to demos of the new T2 (again one of the best sounding keyboards I've heard--based on sounds alone).

I also was looking at the original T1, and something stood out to me that I always thought made a keyboard look like a possible toy. Why on the Tyros has Yamaha painted on the bottom portion under the keys the pictures of what all the keys represent for the percussion kits????? I don't know if they do this on the new T2, but I think that makes a keyboard look cheap. You don't find that on Motif's, Fantoms, and Tritons.

You don't find that because buying a Triton Motif or Fantom (one generally) already has good knowledge on how to operated a keyboard, and those icons are not needed. I think the same goes for a (PRO) arranger like the Tyros. The Tyros isn't typically the (first) keyboard for someone. Maybe their first pro arranger.

Do they really need to keep painting those cheezy icons below the keys?

Just my thought.

Also very jealous of all you T2 owners. I really want one myself, but I got way too many other toys for Christmas. To ask for a T2 or any other keyboard would result in the loss of my manhood


Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-05-2006).]

....Give me a Black Kb anyday like we used to have, I hate these new colors, and silly icons, & pictures.

Dnj, you hit the nail on the head my friend. I'm 100% percent with you. Bring back the (black) bodied keyboards!--and drop all those silly looking icons, and so forth.

Take a look at the new Korg Triton TR. It's a beefed up Triton LE with the same body design, but they changed the color from silver to black! Man it just looks so much better that way

Ever since the release of the Korg Trinity, the silver body has just been WAY overdone! Everything is silver now.

Squeak

The drum icons should be removed.But quiet frankly i am glad the tyros2 remains silver. with its cut out corners it is the smartest looking keyboard around...better looking than g70 and pa1x. I prefer silver to black

Amen to the black keyboard.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

Hi Squeak but I'd like to disagree.

Excuse me if I am wrong, but I think that Yamaha has designed the Tyros 2 not only for the pros but also for the home musicians. This possibly justifies the drum icons.

In my opinion those icons make the keyboard more user friendly.

Regards,
George

i am guessing that if one likes silver then u like other stuff in silver too like tv's, dvd players, mini hifis, cameras, cellphones etc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by squeak_D:
Do they really need to keep painting those cheezy icons below the keys?

Also very jealous of all you T2 owners. I really want one myself... To ask for a T2 or any other keyboard would result in the loss of my manhood

Hi Squeak,

I just have to agree with you... I was out to visit George Kaye last week and took a test drive on the T2 and was so distracted by those little symbols under the keys that I could hardly concentrate on playing.

I had the same problem on my PSR2100, so I just covered all of those little percussy thingies with a strip of duct tape. The tape was a perfect match for the sleek silver finish of the 2100, however my playing did not seem to improve.

Either way it looked so good that I also covered up the Voice and Style letters. WOW! It was starting to look real PRO board now, so I taped over the rest of the symbols and letters.

First the bad news.
When I tried the turn the darn thing on I could not remember where the ON button was and of course I threw out the owners manual long ago... who wants to read that stuff.

Now the good news!
Through pushing buttons and trial and error I finally got it turned on. I was afraid to turn it off, so now I just move the sofa and unplug and replug it in from the wall socket.

Oh yeah, one more thing... I taped over the Yamaha logo and now people keep asking me "Is that a Casio?"

That losing your manhood to get a T2 sounds real serious to me, but look at the brighter side... it might launch a whole new singing career for you.

keyofg

P.S. For those who have or prefer a black keyboard I suppose you could substitute black electrical tape for the duct tape. Now that's PRO

Don't change colors again... When I got my Pa1X Pro, I bought an apex in silver to match it and my DGX-500 piano. If they keyboards change colors again, I'd have to get a black Apex to match...

keyofg, Now that's funny! Maybe even black spray paint.
DonM

Squeak,

I have the T1 and I never even noticed the little drum pictures. I'll have to take a second look to see if they are on mine.

Tom

Regardless, I still think it's a toyish look to a keyboard that's obviously (pro).

Seriously the damn thing costs over three grand. I can't remember the last (pro) keyboard I owned require the drum icons. Of course you don't judge a book by it's cover, but we still do it anyways. Yes the Tyros 2 is without a doubt one kick ass arranger, but Yamaha doesn't help the pro image of this board by painting the "kiddie" drum icons under the keys.

I can't remember the last time I heard someone playing a Yamaha Motif, Roland Fantom, or Triton complaining because they "just can't find the drum sounds without the picture".

One poster said it being a "home keyboard". I don't agree. I could spend $8,000 on Korgs top synth, and it NEVER leave my home. Does that make it a home keyboard? A pro arranger is just that--supposed to be designed for the professional.

Squeak

Say what you want about Casio, their new WK3200 and 3700 can't be beat for the price. Even the old MZ-2000 dances circles around the PSR-3000 in several areas.

I have both camps.. A silver set up...CasioMZ2000 and a Roland DisCover5 on my silver Apex stand..with my silver Compaq laptop..Also my Silver mic[58 copy]..

My black setup....Roland G1000 on my black Apex stand, with my black CTX laptop, and black AT mic..

keyofg .. ...

squeak ... I don't think anyone called it a 'home keyboard', but rather said it was designed not just for 'pros' but 'home musicians' as well ...

I have a question ... What is the PROBLEM with the drum icons ????
I have a technics kn6000 and the drum symbols are just above the keybed ... I find this very useful when I am sequencing a song and want a certain percussion sound...
squeak, without the icons, where would I go to find the sound I am looking for? ...
Also, believe it or not, I was playing as an 'add on' with a larger group one night, and during certain tunes I used the kb for added pecussion ... those icons helped a lot ...

t.

Fran ... you could play for the Raiders both home and away !!!

t.

In more ways then one!!!!

I guess I'm a genuine antique!

Only two colors for equipment, Black and Chrome, white/ivory keys or trim okay, white shirts/ blk pants for the players.

If your gonna get paid the same as the guys busing tables you got to dress like'em.

Seemed to be the way it worked in the good ol days. Never a care of what to wear, or does the the band look good. Under lights black and chrome becomes magic to a audience.

Loved it when levi's came out in black, add 5 short sleeve square tail white shirts 5 for $7.50 from Monkey Wards and your ready to go to work. In the dim lighting no one seemed to noticed you are in genes, and if they did you matched everyone else and they thought you were just wild musicians. The high class joints (the ones that charge more and pays a couple dollars extra) you had to wear black slacks and a clip on bow tie.

Hey the icons for drums dosn't bother me I can't see'em for all the colored follow me flashing lights on the TY2..he he

Cheers guys......pose

Hi Squeak,
Nobody said exactly that. I see that you desperately defend your point of view.

But once again, the T2 target customer is not only the pro but also the semi-pros, songwriters, serious hobbyists and home musicians. Practically everyone who likes playing keyboards.

Yamaha arrangers are very popular because they are easy to operate and user friendly. And, like I said, the drum icons are part of the user friendliness.

My impression is that impression that all yamaha arrangers could easily be used by home players. I came to this conclusion after watching the demo videos of T2, T1, PSR3000, PSR2100 and DGX505. Then I compared these videos to those of Motif ES, Motif Rack and S90ES. The keyboards and the rack from the second group seem to have much more in-depth features and I tend to think they are designed mainly for the heavy pros.

Regards,
George

Maybe it's just me then. I was a synth junkie before I got involved with arrangers, and none of my former synths had these nor did I ever feel the need to use them.

I've never had the need for "icons" to show me where specific percussion sounds were on the keys. You just learn the basic layout after a while I guess. Now the layout is almost universal on so many keyboards with the drum kits.

I (and other keyboard friends) I've talked to also felt it made the Pro arrangers look less (pro) in appearance because of the little drum icons.

I just think it looks cheezy to me for a professional keyboard. If Korg, Yamaha, and Roland added the icons to the Triton, Motif, and Fantom you bet your hind end that people would voice their dislike about it.

Squeak

At least they didn't label it PSRTyros2

That is the problem with top-end arrangers.
They are not made just for pro musicians.
They are also made for the home and novice user.

Thus visually tutering messages on the keyboard about basic functions of a keyboard is needed for the market that is not fully in to keyboard use and custums i.e(the standard drum mappings on a keyboard).

Workstations, are marketed to the pro musicians who do not like to be associated with anything that may look very basic.


That is why the pros who use just the traditional workstations would always look down on arrangers even the top-end ones.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 01-06-2006).]

DISAGREE:

I actually like the silver. You have to remember a lot of what we performers do is impress. Whenever anyone takes a look at my Ty2, they go, "wow, it looks like a spaceship!" (I'm not kidding btw).

In addition, my powermac is silver, my behringer mixer is silver, and half my equipment is silver, so it all matches!

With regards to the icons, I never even noticed them. I have no idea if they're on my Ty2, but I assume they are if they were on the 1. To tell you the truth, if I forget where a certain percussion is, I don't look at the icons, I just figure it out by hitting all the keys within the probable range...

I would never have bought the Ty for home use. I have to stay on the cutting edge in the business I'm in, and to tell you the truth, the Ketron, Korg and Roland brass, trumpets and saxes, were far better than the Ty1. With the 2, it has closed the gap, and I feel I'm on much better footing.

Chony

What's the difference between showing percussion symbols on an arranger keyboard case and showing Sine, Sawtooth, Square wave, LFO symbols, etc. on a Synth case?

Boy, we are passionate (and blind) when it comes to defending our arrangers. Of course Squeak_D is correct in his observations. The only real question is whether or not it bothers you. The difference, IMO, is that with a (acknowledged) "Pro" keyboard, the impression is that of a KEYBOARD with a few buttons added for convenience; with the Tyros (and Casios, etc.) it's more like a LOT of buttons with a keyboard thrown in for convenience. But let's face it, it only bothers us (those of us that it DOES bother) because of our concern for what SOMEONE ELSE (especially other musicians) might think, not because all those lights and buttons are intrinsicly bad.....we're afraid that the appearance of our instrument will define our level of professionalism, but in the end, only our lousy playing and singing is going to do that. or not.

chas

*****

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

My M1 was a beauty

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-06-2006).]

.....but how many of us have had to keep tapping away at different notes one by one to find the particular percussion sound we were looking for on occassions! I do a fair bit of style & file programming and sure, I know where the main elements of the kit live. But be honest, do you use (say) castanets or temple blocks often enough to know which key they are under FIRST TIME, EVERY TIME? And every other percussion sound on the instrument as well?

Whilst I don't want a keyboard to look like a kids toy or a Christmas tree, I personally think that sensible use of graphics such as Yamaha's drum icons can be very helpful (and no, I don't own a Yamaha) in getting the job done quicker and easier.

I also think that well designed front panel layouts using different shapes, sizes, grouping and (subtle) colours for front panel buttons can lead to an easier to operate instrument. Easier to operate = more time for playing, and less chance of foul ups.

However, there seems to be a problem here in that many "serious" musicians find anything other than plain black casings, no labelling, terrible ergonomics, unfathomable operating systems and general lack of user-friendliness has some strange kind of macho appeal....... ;-)

Regards - and a Happy New Year to musos everywhere - Mike

Darn you Squeak, now you've got me going!

In the interest of looking more PRO I took the little C-D-E-F-G-H-I and J stickers off of my keys and now I can't play a thing.

I had to call Yamaha to find which keys to put them back on. By the way, Yamaha said there was no H, I or J. I guess they should know, so I just left them off... never played them anyhow.

The point of this is that you are right! The keyboard plays just the same and it sure looks better without those pesky and unnecessary little H, I and J icons. Actually, I think it sounds better without them. I know I certainly now feel and look more PRO, seated at the keys.

keyofg

P.S. By the way, I did the stickers in black this time. WOW, what a difference! ;-)

Ok, I see where you're getting at, pointing out that having names/functions printed on the KB helps you. But let me tell you: if you can't play your keyboard without reading the text below the buttons every time, you're simply not playing often enough. You should be able to play your board in the dark.

Posted by Burkels:
---------------------------------------------Ok, I see where you're getting at, pointing out that having names/functions printed on the KB helps you. But let me tell you: if you can't play your keyboard without reading the text below the buttons every time, you're simply not playing often enough. You should be able to play your board in the dark.
---------------------------------------------

AMEN TO THAT!!!!! EXACTLY my point Yes----, if you find that you still need to look at icons, and text, and without them you find yourself lost, you have not spent enough time on your board.

My Casio WK-3500 may not have huge features, but after having it for well over a year I can run that board with my eyes closed.

Squeak

******

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

I've read this thread several times, trying to keep an open mind, which in my case may be somewhat difficult.

OK, after perusing the posts, the bottom line is most entertainers using keyboards cover the front of the board, and all the nasty looking wires, with some sort of banner that advertises the performer. Consequently, no one can even see the keyboard, let alone the color. Additionally, no one in the audience can see the tiny icons that are etched under the keys, icons that are essential to those creating styles from scratch.

Let's be realistic about this. No gives a damned what color your keyboard is--period. Your audiences want to be entertained, and if you cannot do this you should take up professional golf, basket weaving or some other form of creating recreational income. The audiences don't have a clue what you are doing, many think you are either a DJ or Karaoke guy, and they're quite happy when they hear the songs they enjoyed listening to when they were 16 to 25 years of age.

A few years ago, I had the privilage of attending a Harry Belefonte concert at the Joseph Myerhoff Symphony Hall in Baltimore, one that was absolutely fascinating. He had a keyboard player that was surrounded by four keyboards. Every one of them was different, all were different colors, ranging from bright red to silver, and some had wild custom color paterns that resembled tiger stipes. The bottom line is this guy was an incredible performer, playing two boards at the same time, switching back and forth to the other boards that had been set up with various voices, and he provided more entertainment that anyone could imagine. Do you think that anyone in the audience of several thousand really had any thoughts about the color of his keyboard? Do you think for one minute that they wondered whether or not he had onboard speakers? Do you think anyone in that audience cared if it had 61 keys, 76 keys or 88 keys? HELL NO!

At the end of the night I could hear people talking about how wonderful the performance was, and especially how incredible it was to see the person playing four keyboards at the same time. It was an incredible, very entertaining evening, and I for one learned a lot about audiences--they just want to be entertained. If you can entertain them, they could care less about the color of your keyboard, the number of keys or anything else that someone may perceive as a professional keyboard. I sincerely believe that a professional keyboard is only as good as the performer using it.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Hi,
wonder if the silver color of the keyboards is so that a keyboard can blend in with the home decor.

Look at the current crop of TV's, DVD players, etc SILVER. A lot of the arranger keyboards are used in the home, so I suppose it makes sense to try & blend them in with the rest of the electronics.
Just a thought.
best wishes
Rikki

Very well said, Gary.

Of cource, that fancy looking keyboard with tiger stripes attracted the eyes and the audience had even more pleasure.

Just a thought.

George

Oh! How I agree with Gary.. Seldom have I seen such a trivial topic create so much sound and fury. Lighten up folks. No-one sees the things but you. Unless that is, you take the audience on a conducted tour..

*****

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

Come on people....we don't need drum icons ...period!

The same basic drum layout on the keys has been the same since day one...

Learn the basic drums...it isn't brain surgery..

My method is so simple..
On my left hand,,my ring finger plays the bass drum..same hand , fore finger plays the snare drum...
On my right hand..my fore finger plays the closed high hat cymbal and my ring finger plays the open high hat cymbal....leaving my right hand pinkie to play my crash cymbal..

It is just second nature...I don't even think about it..

*****

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

Thank you Fran! In all seriousness if you play your board enough, you'll have no need for the icons. Someone posted they help in recording styles (as reference).

People who use the non/arranger workstations also record drum tracks, and I don't hear them complaining that they can't get anything done because they don't hvae the drum icons.

For me I really don't give a rats behind what other people think of the board I'm playing (if I'm playing out). However, if I'm paying over $3,000 for a (pro) keyboard..., I want it to look like a pro keyboard.

I know people are going to say that well people who play at home buy these boards and need the icons. I don't think that applies because just as many people buy Motifs, Fantoms, and Tritons, and these boards never leave their homes.

To me it's just takes away from what I think should be a (professional) appearance on a board that is clearly priced (above) the average professional keyboard.

That's why I haven't purchased the PSR-3000. I like the sound, and features, but I'm not paying $1,500 for a keyboard built like a $200 Casio. (I'll probaby get some heat for that remark, but hey that's how I feel about it). Now if there was a module version of it, then it would be different.

Squeak

****

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

Ianmcnll,
I have no doubt and agree with you 100% in that the PSR-3000 sounds good, and has great features. That's I will not dispute. However, the PSR-3000 has basically the same build quality as the PSR-2000/2100. On top of that Yamaha is still using the most crappy pitchbend and modulation wheels I've ever used on a keyboard in my life. I can't believe they would put something of such poor quality on a keyboard selling for $1,500.

My playing style relies greatly on the pitch and mod wheels, and I need a good quality pair. Also I do not like the key action of the PSR's. I don't like the smaller keys, and I don't like how short the "throw" is on them before you bottom out.

If I bought the PSR-3000, I would be midi'd up to my board with 76 keys and way better quality wheels. Again however I'm not spending $1,500 on a keyboard that would require me to midi it up to another just for a decent set of keys and wheels.

A while back I bought a PSR-2000 from a forum member (I knew I wouldn't like the keys and wheels, but I still have my board with 76 keys). It wasn't a problem for me to midi that board because the seller sold it for a REALLY good price.

For $1,500 I expect a board to have at the minimal decent keys and mod wheels, and the construction to be of better quality.

Look at the Korg PA-50 and Triton Le. Lower models, but hey look at their prices too. Only $1,000 for those units.

I did however consider the PSR-1,500, but after talking to others, I found the general opinion of this board was that it was basically a PSR-2000/2100 with a different body. One thing I'd want is the mega voices, mainly the guitars and mega bass. Damn do those mega voices sound good.

Anywho when the PSR-3000 comes down in price I'll probably pick one up. Then it (to me) would be worth it considering the build quality.

Squeak

You win Squeak!

Exactly the same reason I've resisted the temptation to buy a PSR3000 Squeak. Every pitch wheel on every PSR I had or tried in the past was flimsy and on my 740 it broke ( twice ). I didn't have my 530 or either of my 2000's long enough for the pitch wheels to break, but I am quite sure it's likely that if I did have them a while, they would have broken. OTOH, I've had and played the hell out of my Motif ES for well over 2 years now, and the pitch / mod wheels feel as solid as the day I bought it.

I agree 100 % with you too Gary. If you can't play or entertain worth a lick, it isn't going to matter much at all what equipment you bring to perform with. OTOH, Fran and Squeak are spot on. Personally, I couldn't care less whether the drum symbols are on the keys or not, but if I actually needed to look at them to play "drums" ( or anything else ), then I simply haven't practiced enough. I use different slightly different fingering than Fran does, but basically use the same hands to play the same drum instruments.

AJ

****

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-30-2006).]

Posted by Ianmcnll:
---------------------------------------------
People who use the pitch/mod wheels incorrectly are bound to experience problems.
---------------------------------------------

You've GOT to be joking! It's not inexperience of a (seasoned) player that breaks the wheels. It's when big multi-billion dollar company like Yamaha takes short cuts and uses (paper clips) for return springs is when the wheels break.

Have you ever put your hands on the wheels of a Yamaha Motif? That is what a pitchbend wheel should feel like. It's the absolute crappy construction of those wheels that actually "limit" what one can do.

My playing techniques are not in any way hard or abusive on the wheels. If I used the pitchbend wheels the same way I do on my Casio WK on a Yamaha PSR, then yeah they'd break. Get my drift? My CASIO (my $380.00 Casio) beats the Yammie's HANDS DOWN!

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-07-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-07-2006).]

My dear man,you must not get upset.

I made no implication you used the wheels improperly.My statements were merely from my own long term experience with pitch wheels of varying quality.
A firm but delicate touch makes a big difference,no matter how the wheel is constructed.It is easy to make the PSR-3000 respond properly once the limitations of the wheel are understood.
Again,I applaud the 3k for being a real bargain in a field of competitors that can't come near it's "bang for the buck".
Read upon it Squeak...read what Keyboard magazine said about it...read what is being said on the internet...but,please don't get upset.
We are only discussing,not arguing,my friend.

The pitchbend wheel on the 3k and below work well for regular (simple) bends. However, there are other techniques that other players (and those of us who are guitar players as well for example) have learned to use the pitchbend wheels (alone) to achieve a more realistic guitar effect.

This can ONLY be done on a keyboard with GOOD wheels. Every board I've worked onthat had good quality wheels was capable of doing this. My Casio WK does it no problem, my old MZ-2000 did it with no problem, my old Yamaha EX-7 did a great job at this along with a few others. However, because of the low quality of the PSR's wheels, it can't be done. Believe me I tried on many occasions to do this. It just can't be done. The spring mechanism within the wheel prevents this.

I've seen many keyboard players play the wheels the same way I do for guitar and sax voices. It's not an uncommon technique at all. Good wheels and joysticks can handle it, but the PSR's wheels can't keep up.

I've read the reviews and so forth, sure the 3000 got good reviews for the features and sound quality, but regardless of how well the review is written, the (fact) remains that the PSR's wheels are of very low quality, and cannot perform as those found on many other boards (including inexpensive Casio's).

Plus your statement was:
---------------------------------------------
People who use the pitch/mod wheels incorrectly are bound to experience problems.
---------------------------------------------
How else is one to read that? You basically said the wheels break because of peoples incorrect use.

That's not the case at all. It doesn't take a seasoned pro with 30 or more years to see that Yammie really went cheap in this area. Take a look at the pitch and mod wheel on the Tyros. They're good quality because they come from their synth line. It wouldn't kill Yamaha or break their budgets to put those wheels on the PSR-3000.

Squeak

I won't get upset, just strongly disagree. If you like your 3k, that's fine with me. A lot of folks don't care for my favorite instruments, and that's fine too. It's whatever works for the player, and the 3k just isn't it for me. I play my keys and my wheels hard. That's just the way it is.

It's a "feel" thing and it's my individual touch, and ya know what... it seems to serve me pretty well, for my particular style of play. I'm a synthesist at heart, and have been playing them for decades, so I have a pretty fair grasp and utilizing most or all of the tricks, aftertouch, knobs, ribbon controllers, wheels, etc.

I want something that springs back or has some feel to it. I don't like a soft touch, and while I'm sure that there are others who do, I'm pretty certain that doesn't make me any less experienced a player than anyone who does.

For someone to suggest that someone else is playing incorrectly or with inexperience if they are not using keys and accessories ( pitch wheel in this instance ) with a similar attack or approach vs playing a violin.... kinda gives me the impression that you might be a Yamaha salesperson or that you may not be a very experienced player.

Perhaps I might think of that attack IF I were attempting to emulate a violin using multisamples, but if for instance, I want to play something like the "Lucky Man" solo, I think maybe I'll continue to use my keys the way I have been, since it seems to have been working fairly well for me for a lot of years. Thanks for the attempt at a synth lesson though..

On another note, DNJ and I have discussed this one before, although I like the silver beasts, I don't care either way. I had a love hate relationship with my M1. It looked fine, and the keys felt great, but the eprom gave me fits. I had to have the internal memory reloaded a couple of times. When it was working right though, it was a joy to play. I recently tried out the software M1, and it works like a charm. No bugs and no Eprom issues, and it sounds exactly like the original as I remember it. The only downside is having to use the USB dongle thing, but for this collection, I'll live with it.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-07-2006).]

I do not wish to imply that people are inexperienced if they don't use the wheels on the 3k correctly(or,better still,within their limits),and I truly don't wish to offend the egos of people who have all the chops and tricks down cold.
To prevent that from happening,let me state that if I (notice carefully the word"I") use a controller beyond what it has been designed for,and it breaks or gives problems,then obviously it is because I failed to adapt to it's limits.
Adapting to limitations in musical instruments,and continuing to make acceptable (or better) music has in my opinion,always been the signature of a true professional.All instruments have limits,and to go beyond them and expect great results,does not make sense.
The pitch wheels are made for bending pitch(hence the name)and used properly ,will give no problems.That is not an assumption...that is a fact.If they don't do the job for the player who needs (or expects) more,it makes sense to use another instrument(or controller).
If the wheels don't feel strong,why tempt fate by using them beyond what they were meant to do.I understand very well,the technique you described,and have managed it quite well on the 3k,albeit with practice and patience for the wheel's limits.
The "Lucky Man" solo was predominately a portamento (actually a "glide"effect, A "Real" Modular Moog has exponential glide...though the Mini has linear),but the portamento on the 3k and others will work fine,while not being totally accurate.Again,it means working within limitations.
I don't sell Yamahas,I demonstrate them (and Rolands,and Korgs...) and have done so for 30 years ,although my choice in the last few years has leaned towards Yamaha(we all have our favorites) because I feel they are ahead of the rest in many areas,if not all.If that changes,I'll use something else.
This forum has always had people with strong opinions,and that's what has made it all the more interesting and even intriguing .I have my own,and as you can tell,they aren't easily changed,but I am no different than others who do the same.
Thank you for your understanding and open mindedness...and your strong opinions.

Hmm, you don't sell them.. you demonstrate them... I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like sales to me. Your use of the word "correctly" when defining use of the pitch wheel smacks of it. But... as you said.. strong opinions... so.... I won't try to change your mind.. you certainly won't change mine.


AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-08-2006).]

I said nothing about salesperson. You must have put on the wrong glasses...or made an assumption.
Please do not put words in my mouth...it is rude.

Oh ok. I get it now. You're opinion is ok... mine is rude. You talk just like a salesperson, tell me that you're not one, then go on to state that you've demonstrated " Yamahas, Rolands" etc for 30 years ( I don't need any glasses to see that.. you wrote it ).

You're assumption ( clearly stated twice already at least ) is that I don't play correctly because I don't accept or play within the limitations of something that I feel is built like a piece of junk. That isn't a bit rude ?

It's pretty easy to insult one another from behind a computer kb, but this isn't getting us anywhere.... so you win Ian. I'm outta this thread.

AJ

AJ

Thanks AJ...I knew you'd understand.
As it is said here on Cape Breton Island(the most beautiful place in the world),
"Brìgh gach cluiche gu dheireadh".
(The essence of a game is at its end.)
Ian

Ian,
All I got to say is--learn to use a board within it's limitations all you want, but there is a VERY FINE line between using a board within it's limitations and it flat out NOT being able to do something.

Sugarcoat it all you want, the FACT still remains that Yamaha's contruction of those wheels if of VERY poor quality. One SHOULD NOT have to feel the need to play ever so gently because of the fear that it will break. It should be STURDY and WELL CONSTRUCTED so that it doe NOT get in the way or hinder ones playing ability.

Well Peace Out!

Squeak

Thanks Squeak,

Like most musicians who make their living with their keyboards,I have to look at cost versus profit.Other members in this forum that use the 3k for working will probably relate to this aspect.

Buying an expensive keyboard like a Tyros cuts in on my profit,and really does no more than a PSR-3000 for my type of work. I understand the technique you use for certain expressive playing,and with a lot of practice,I was able to get it close enough to live with it.

Sure,I would prefer more robust wheels like the Tyros,but the word"practical" comes into effect pretty quickly when it comes time to pay the bills.So I do the only thing possible with the given limitations of the instrument.....I adapt as best I can.

In Cape Breton,we have a saying in Gaelic "Is uaisle am breid na toll. (A patch is better than a hole).

Yamaha pays me like my other employers...by what I produce in as far as putting the instrument through it's paces and making it look as easy and non-intimidating to a potential user as possible...I am never allowed to discuss price. Same goes for Roland,Korg or if I'm employed by the owner of the local music store.When working in a store,I sometimes play all three brands which can be quite a learning experience in it's own right with all the different controllers etc.

Hopefully Yamaha will respond to complaints (yes,I complain too....rather stubbornly and very loudly, as you probably would guess) and the 3k replacement (due out in late June in Canada)will have better wheels and an aftertouch keyboard.Now,that would be a real "patch".

All the best to you,

Ian

I'm deffinitely with SQUEAK on this one. The pitch and mod wheels are extrememly limiting on the 3000. You simply do not have the control and flexibility with them that you have on the Tyros. (Before you quick-fire back, please listen to some of my guitar recordings on this site.)

Regarding cost/profit. I find that although the Tyros has increased my cost, it has by far more, incrased my profit. So has the $5000 (or more) I spend per year on advertising...

The more $ you spend, the more $ you'll make!

Chony

Hi Chony,
I hope no one feels I am defending the wheels on the 3k...I'm not.
I'm saying,if it must be used than you must be flexible enough to adapt.
I have two 3k's...one is a very necessary backup if you play often and have steady gigs....downtime with a keyboard is very costly...and you could lose potential gigs as well.....although the 3k is the very model of reliability(for a cheaply made instrument?)
I could never afford two Tyros or a Tyros and a 3k(backup).And,I just don't feel the Tyros is worth the extra money...I had one from Yamaha on my sample account for several months before I made the decision to get the 3ks.It was very nice,but very overpriced.
I don't spend anything on advertising...never did...I couldn't possibly find more time...I'm very busy with demo and restaurant and studio gigs.I find gigging itself as a great form of advertising and one job very often begets another.
I also find it more profitable to be a little hard to get...at least it works for me.
Ian

Ian,
my hat off to you!
You held your calm while some were coming down on you during this thread. Ok, I'm not a native english speking person, but I couldn't find anything here that was meant as criticism to anyone here. I read your post as 'generally speaking' sort of. A true gentleman, Ian!

Roy-Andrè
www.royandre.no

changed my mind

[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 01-08-2006).]

Roy,
Well to be honest I don't see how anyone could't be offended by his statement. His word choice was poor. That statement in general said that "people who can't get the pitchbend effect we're wanting and breaking wheels" is a result of them not using them correctly. Again poor word choice. I always take into account that one thing can be typed one way and the poster meaning something else. AJ (is a very well rounded individual and I've talked to him on numerous occassions inside and outside of the synthzone. He took it the same way....

Things have lightened up a bit here which is great considering all the hostility there was over the past few months. I'm glad that Nigel made the Yamaha Arranger section, because I along with quite a few others I've talked to strongly feel the general arranger section was very "biased" towards Yamaha arrangers, and when someone said anything negative about them it got ugly.

I said something negative about the poor construction quality of Yamaha's arrangers, and a member posts:

---------------------------------------------
People who use the pitch/mod wheels incorrectly are bound to experience problems.
---------------------------------------------

Butter it up and serve it with tea if you like, it still is a negative remark that is too "generalized".

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2006).]

OK OK we KNOW that the build standard of the 3k and its close relatives raises issues that some of us can live with and some of use can't.

Vive la difference as they say.

Back to the plot.

The drum symbols can be useful. I agree they detract from the "professional" image but I don't see how you can give that information in any easier fashion, once you have made the decision that the information should be provided. Maybe the symbol strip could be made removable?

And I vote for black as the best colour. I have always felt that this gave a keyboard some "gravitas".

Posted by MacAllcock:
--------------------------------------------
The drum symbols can be useful. I agree they detract from the "professional" image but I don't see how you can give that information in any easier fashion, once you have made the decision that the information should be provided. Maybe the symbol strip could be made removable?
---------------------------------------------

That would be a nice option to remove the icons. Actually your post just got me to thinking. Even if the icons weren't under the keys the "manual" will give you that information. All the manuals I've used (even synths) have a "data" list for the drum kits and their key assignments. Even the PSR's have it.

Squeak

Hi Squeak,
I can't understand why you have so much trouble with what you called a "negative "statement by someone...it's not like you've never used them yourself...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I said something negative about the poor construction quality of Yamaha's arrangers," ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a sensitive man....wait a little while...you will soon feel better...life is too short to waste time on the trivial.

This icon thing is really rather amusing....I guess the keyboard wouldn't be "professional" enough if it were actually made so that it was easier to use...
It's much easier to go digging for the manual? .....come on....you must be joking?....or maybe not......
Ian

macallcock,
I agree on your choice for the color black, for keyboards....or a lovely rich woodgrain...very traditional.
Ian again

Boy, you're quite the rude gent yourself Ian. You make an offensive comment, then try to justify your ignorance, basically saying "get over it".

Last time I checked I thought there was an understanding here to keep such negative remarks "out" of posts in respect for our fellow forum members.

No I'm not an overly sensitive person. I just prefer to keep "snide" remarks out of posts here on the Zone. I try my best to not offend others because I know how words can get twisted.

(Me personally) I feel that some members here need to understand there is more to the keyboard world than Yamaha, and just because someone points out (factual) statements about Yamaha they should be able to do so without negative remarks.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2006).]

Squeak,
My respects. Over your post you repeat the same negative words about yamaha keyboards. You started with the Tyros, then came the PSR3000 and I am sure that soon you will proceed with the DGX.

I notice all the things you talk about in my (non-pro) keyboard. It has the same crappy pitch-bend wheel, pleasant silver color and (helpful) drum icons. I can point out many weaknesses about my keyboard. I was lead to buy it after reading many positive reviews and there was no-one to point out its shortcomings.

On the other hand, I feel happy that I own it. I started composing music again and my music was appreciated by the synthzone members.

I appreciate your thoughts on PSR3000. However,I am sure that the weaknesses you pointed out wouldn't stop me from buying one if I could afford it.

And yes, you are right that Yamaha is not everything. Unfortunately, They sell only yamahas here so I can't comment on other brands.

Regards,
George

Squak,

Please don't misquote me and put words in my mouth.
I did not say"get over it"
I did not say you were "overly sensitive".
That is not being fair.
...........................................
"( and just because someone points out (factual) statements about Yamaha they should be able to do so without negative remarks."
............................................
And please follow those rules yourself.You are just as guilty of what you accuse in others.
This is becoming very tedious and a bit boring.
Icon no longer see the point of commenting anymore.It is just a case of utter blackness...or woodgrain.
Bye for now,
Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-08-2006).]

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-08-2006).]

Ian and Squeak...two good guys getting caught up in a squabble....Cool it, we don't want anymore strife , because of PSR..

Thanks Fran...we aren't squabbling...are we?
I appreciate your concern and want you (and Squeak) to know,there certainly are no hard feelings.
We Cape Bretoners love a good exchange of ideas...no matter how wide ranging they are.
Thanks again for your interest.
Ian

I have no hard feelings. We just have different opinions that's all

Squeak

Nah! It ain't worth it!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Ah...go ahead

I hear you. (And the following is not an 'attack' just in case anyone would like to think so!) When I advertise, I give myself a brand-name. And people pay for that.

You probably do have double the ammount of gigs that I do, however, I probably charge two - four times more than you do! The *cheapest* I will leave my house for is $450 - and that's on discount, favor, etc, etc. I regularly charge double that. If they can't afford it, I just refer them to one of my friends...

Some people might look at this as throwing away money -- but its the opposite: Its maintaining a standard, which people come to expect and respect. And in the end, it pays.

And everyone's happy.

Hi Chony,
This might be a little off topic but here goes...
I guess in a way,I'm lucky to live in an area where there is little competition as far as arranger players go.Lots of piano players,and keyboardists,but arranger players are scarce.There is only one other guy who does the same type of gig(instrumental-arranger) and he is as busy as I. Fortunately we are friends...I programmed his 9000pro for him and gave him a lot of my custom styles which are optimized for restaurant/dinner music venues.He's a fine player,and worked in Nashville as Glen Campbell's piano player for several years.Our styles of playing are different enough to let people choose a theme for a particular evening...and we often alternate gigs because of this.
Cape Breton Island has a relatively low cost of living, so I charge accordingly,keeping my fee low enough so as not to price myself out of work.My friend and I agreed on fees we'd both charge, so we effectively don't compete with one another.I'm not concerned with making a lot of money...just enough...I'm content and love doing what I do.
Occasionally, I'll do a gig for free at a nursing home,or for a friend...just my way of being grateful for being fortunate for having the gift of music.
I charge by the hour, with a minimum of 2 hours for a gig...that way the employer knows ahead of time,what extra time will cost.
One standard I do work to maintain, is the quality of the presentation of the music,so I practice often and learn new tunes,use a high end keyboard and sound system ,and maintain an effective dress code. I also believe that having a reputation of always being on time and always giving people a little more than they expect, goes a long way in getting gigs.
When presented with a job where the fee is negotiable, or hasn't been discussed,I usually ask the employer "What do you think is fair?" It usually ends up being more than what I would have asked in the first place.
I totally agree with you about "maintaining a standard".
Ian