Hi to all of you.
I'm joining for the first time this forum with a question that maybe does not puzzle just me. The subject is, as usual, the search of the ideal keyboard. My personal viewpoint is that it should have great, inspiring styles, beautiful sounds and a mass storage system (internal loudspeakers are a welcome optional). My actual setup is composed of a Roland G 800, plus a Yamaha SY 99, an Ensoniq ASR 10m and an Akai S2800, leftovers of a time where I was concentrated more on sounds than music. Unfortunately, the very fact of being accustomed to the sound of samplers and synthesyzers makes me less indulgent towards the instruments sampled in arranger keyboards. Someone could reply that Yamaha PSRs have good soounds, and this is true, but in my opinion they are sadly lacking in the styles area. The main reason I have chosen my Roland G 800 is that with most preset styles my fingers start moving automatically within a few seconds, while Yamaha styles -in comparison- sound less inspiring, less natural, more academic. For the same reason I did'nt trade my G 800 for a G 1000 because I still prefer the G 800 styles (G 800 styles imported in a G 1000 sound worse, due to a lesser dinamic range of the 1000). Solton keyboards have great all-around styles and generally are preferred by professionals because they are ideal for making people dance the night away...but the sounds are not at the same level (I had an MS-50 in the past and I would never have dreamt of sampling its internal sounds). Roland VA 7 could have been an interesting option, but aside from the interface problems already mentioned by many of you, I am afraid that in the end it will reveal itself like a transition instrument, with many youth defects that in the future will be corrected by Roland itself. So, in my quest for a perfect soundset for my evenings with my friends I will probably end up keeping my faithful G 800 and buying a portable synth- module like the Roland XV 3080, hoping to discover that they have sampled that famous Stan Getz sax inside.
Unless, of course, someone comes out with a better advice...
Thank you to you all.



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You stated:
(G 800 styles imported in a G 1000 sound worse, due to a lesser dinamic range of the 1000).

I don't believe that at all. If anything it is because the G1000 has so many MORE sounds that you need to re-assign the tones in the style to match the old set up. You are simply used to the older sound table, or maybe you DO actually prefer it, but the dynamic range is not reduced. Maybe you had a different velocity setting on the keyboard, or the tone you listed to reacted differently to your ears. The fact remains: The G1000 is an UPgrade all the way. I, myself find a few of the older sound bank tones more pleasing than the newer ones too, but it's taste, nothing else. Giove the 1000 another shot before you waste alot of money on a new sound module. You'll love the new storage and control of the G1000, not to mention the improved effects.

Just wait for the Ketron SD1 . After playing this new keyboard perhaps your opinion will change ! 309 styles, 48 megs dedicated to sound Rom. Syncipate samples to midi or arranger sequence. Just sit back and wait .
Dan O @ guitar center
oneils4@home.com Dreams come true ....Dreamer

HIP,HIP, HOORAY,, Uncle Dave defends my favorite keyboard and he is correct. I can't understand why anyone that liked the G800 does not love the G1000, there are so many improvements on the G1000 and software upgradable, not to mention the legitament 16 track sequencer and header post edit. Even the insert effects alone is worth the upgrade to the 1000..Zip and SCSI to boot...Come on!! it's a no brainer..

I also owned and enjoyed a Roland G800 long time ago when I first knew of arranger keyboards. I have to agree with Uncle Dave and Fran that G1000 is way much better than G800 except with minor flaws of button changes owing to cost-cutting from Roland, and the noisy ZIP drive. I specifically like the disk link feature of G1000 that gives you almost instantaneously access of hundreds of your favorite styles in the Zip disk. I have not found the problem of sound dynamics reduction with ported G800 styles on G1000. The G1000 also has some very usable accoustic styles that the G800 does not have. Solton SD-1 is nice, but it is a creature of another league - almost three times as much as the G1000 now.

Paul Ip
from Texas

I'll try to be kind!! To prefer the G800 sounds over the G1000 amazes me!!! I am very reluctant to voice opinions on this forum, comparing one KB against the other etc.. BUT!! Lets be real!!I've owned most of the ROLAND stuff (RA90,RA95,G600 etc.) and have always been a Roland fan. But that was yesterday. Today's offerings (Yamaha 9000pro, Solton X1&SD1,I'm sure the PA80 will be impressive) have left Roland behind, FOR NOW!! I'm sure they have something in the wings, but not now, and the VA7 was not the answer. So, if your in the market for an arranger KB Roland is not on the shopping list. To think there is nothing on the market as good as the G800?Well!!! I don't know what to say. GOOD LUCK

I was more or less in the same situation as you are , 1,5 year ago, if I understand your message well. I actually do not expect that what you are looking for will be there soon.
Here is why;
You are in fact looking for a replacement for your G 800 and other equipment, to achieve MAJOR INPROVEMENTS on soundquality, with all the possibillities of todays arrangers and storage possibilities.

Allthough I agree with dave and fran that the G 1000 is a major improvement overall against the G 800, it is not a major improvement on sound.Sure there are some better sounds and more sounds, but it's nowhere near the quality(dynamic expression) of todays top synthesizers and sampled sounds.
Ofcourse this is a personal opinion and taste, so others might think different.

My experience;
Anyway when I was looking for a major upgrade I could not find any, and the G 1000 wasn't worth the upgrade for what it could do more, which basicly has to do with the way I use my G 800. If I had to gig I definately would have upgraded to a G 1000.
(f.i. loading styles thru a floppy won't work pleasant while playing etc...)
Then came the X1, psr9000 ....
Anyway I decided to buy a Kurzweil K 2600S, which absolutely is a MAJOR improvement with sounds, I don't even think there is an equivalent today.
But we are talking a lot of money as well, so it better should be good.
And it is not an arranger keyboard!
After a year of using the K 2600S here is a downer!
The sounds of the K 2600S are so good, that you can hardly combinate the different tracks with f.i. a G 800 or other arrangers.
( I had an X1 and a psr9000 at home for try out as well.)
It's like having a good band with a bad sounding drummer , a bad sounding violist, a bad sax player.
The sounds of the arrangers are just to "thin".
You think there's something wrong with the mix.

If you are a singer, entertainer, the arranger keyboards will do perfectly fine.
If you compose instrumental music, there are better options.

And ofcourse a professional can edit the sounds to make them more as what they are, but I like to play straightforward instead of editing and correcting sounds, in other words ready and go...

I don't know how the XV5080/3080 sounds are.
I never had a chance to try these.
I think Clif Anderson on this BBS owns one.)

I will have a psr9000 pro shortly for try out. ( I can borrow one from the local store)
but I don't expect it to be good enough..

Overall I think the arrangers are perfect for one man band's, but are a compromise.
(I guess they would be too expensive and un-saleable and not transportable if they were perfect.)

Others might think different, these are my own experiences only...

Fred




[This message has been edited by freddynl (edited 02-23-2001).]

Well,
You might as well here from me too! I agree with Uncle Dave, Fran and others.
I was the first dealer in the US to get the G800's and after two weeks of a nightmare experience with broken aftertouch sensors in the pitch bend/mod wheel lever, I finally gave up and would never buy an 800 again to sell in my store. While experimenting with the 800 before I returned all of them I also disliked the sequencer which was a direct to disk sequencer if I remember correctly. Then came the G1000 and I loved it with the exception of taking a long time to really get to know how to use it. When the video owners manual arrived it became a lot easier to navigate. Having the zip drive and the internal sequencer and having real aftertouch in the keyboard made me really like this keyboard. I too think that the VA products could have used more dedicated buttons and a few more of the G series features, but Roland went a different direction with these keyboards. To the home musician this keyboard is doing really well, but to the pro who needs to take it out every night there is by some accounts too much navigation neccessary to do things quickly.
If you like Roland keyboards and you want one that can do most anything consider the KF90. It has 88 hammer weight PA-4 Action, built in speakers, vocal harmonizer for singing, styles and programable styles, 16 track sequencer, works with all older styles, big screen with touch functions (sometimes good, sometimes bad) and great sounds! About $3500.00 in the US. I doubt if many people even know about this product because it's not available through the MI dealers, only CK dealers.
I think the new Solton SD-1 will become a favorite amongst a lot of our readers here. I've had the SD-1 for evaluation in my store for over a month now and my customers love it. I am also liking the 9000 pro so much more than the psr9000, even though there are not much differences. I really like the feel and the number of keys on the 9000 pro(76) and I think it looks great. The X1 is still going strong here with Roland and GEM taking a back seat right now. I've hesitated ordering the WK8se as I was not able to hear the new piano sounds in the models at NAMM. They were supposed to be loaded into their demo models but as I found out, they were not. The fact that these new piano sounds are really the only difference between the new and the old, I've decided to wait awhile before ordering any. Generalmusic products don't sell as well in my store as the X1 and I know a lot of this is because of my enthusiasm for the Solton product. I still get more "wow's" when I play the X1 in my store than other arranger keyboards.
I'm still hoping the Korg PA-80 comes out eventually. There's been so little talk from our friends in Europe who have been able to purchase this keyboard for several months now.

First of all, I want to thank you for replying to my question and giving me constructive advice (well, at least most of you...sorry, JCKeeys).
It is funny, however, how some of you reacted to my statement that I like G800 internal styles more than those found in G1000, which was only a part of my question.
Now, for the sake of discussion, let us assume that I am deaf and I don't know, but I still like G800 internal styles and I don't think there is a huge difference in more modern keyboards; after all, a bossa nova is always a bossa nova, right? Aside from Solton's sampled patterns, it seems to me that the more significant advances in style programming have been:
a- drawing more and more styles from actual songs and so, instead of having a preset called "Bossa 1" you will find another called "Ipabossa", and you will love it, because it was programmed by Tom Jobim himself!
b- a return towards simplicity, i.e. the so called "acoustic" styles, based on just a guitar or a piano backing your right hand.
Now, have you realized how you can change the flavour of a style simply changing a drum kit? When I am at home, I do it all the time, simply routing the corresponding midi channel of my arranger to a sampler or a synth module, and it WORKS! For some styles, like Dance, Fusion or Funk even changing a simple SNARE makes a hell of a difference! Freddynl is perfectly right when he says that arrangers are a compromise, but if he does not like the quality of his rhytm section, he can give them a whole new set of instruments, simply plugging in a midi cable and assigning the right channels (in the worst cases he will have to assign the right notes too, but at least Roland modules are already programmed according to the GM standard).
And the same thing applies for your right hand; those famous "cool" and "live" sounds found in Yamaha PSRs keyboards are drawn from modules like the EX5 and the Korg PA-80 will probably sound like a Triton or a Trinity, only scaled down.
So, the final sense of my question was: given that arranger keyboards are always a compromise, why drooling over phantomatic keyboards like Wersi or wasting a lot a money over the yet-to-come model, instead of keeping a still decent keyboard and implementing its sounds with a synth module?
I realize that this is an arranger keyboard forum, but music is music, after all.

That's a good point.....IF you don't play out alot. Those of us that are always on the go need a tight, fast setup and midi modules are just more stuff to lug around. It may be quite some time before anyone is fully satisfied with a keyboard arranger, but there's always hope!
Personally, I'm sick of waiting for a better deal to come along. I'm playing what I have for a while longer and concentrating on the music - NOT the instrument. All I REALLY need is a mic cable and a drum machine - the rest is all gravy!

Dreamer! Did not mean to be hard on you! At times a response can seem that way but is not intended to be. To Uncle Dave's point there are those out there playing every night and need plug and play equipment. For those who enjoy the comfort of one's home or studio than certainly your thought process will work quit well! I agree a Bosa Nova Is a Bosa Nova now and forever!!

so.....you're saying:
"Blame it on the Bossa Nova" ???????
(Forgive me Miss Edie! )

Hi all,

It's funny nobody mentions the Roland E600 as a good arranger. The styles are really great just like the stereo-sampled piano sounds (that's roland). I can't find many Roland E600 users to share my thoughts about it.
The E600 has a touchscreen, a lot of digital effects, and vocal harmony function. But because of that the Roland E600 is not really in the picture
It's strange that even on the roland site there is not much support for the Roland E600... i hope some Roland E600 users will reply on this message.

Greeting,
Kim

Kim, I had a E-600 for a while,at the same time I had a G1000 and a VA-7... The E lacked an EV-5 pedal input making it not as useable for me. The harmonizer and mic input with effects was useful, even better than trying to use a mic into the Variphrase for vocals[poor signal] on the VA. The lack of a Hard drive or Zip on the E is another reason I could not use it[ floppies are a poor choice on the job].. Overall the only one of the 3 that made sense for me is the G1000, better flexibility[ with buttons. pedals and sliders] and a zip system that allowed switching from sequence play to live play much easier..True there is no mic input. but given the better quality of my outboard set up, I am ahead of the game. The G1000 also feels much better and the extra range [76 keys] suits me. The new sounds on the VA are nicer[Scats ,guitar] but not worth the performance sacrifices. TheE has some nice sounds but not enough variations and choices..The VA style morph is great and simple, but more detail can be done with the G, although more complicated.. Overall I did like the E-600, but rate it last of this group just behind the VA-7..Fran

MY MY How Times Change

I wonder in 4 or 5 yrs I can bring back a post like this about the T2

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-08-2005).]

I still own my K2600S which still easily
competes with todays arrangers on most sounds The K is now more then six years old.

The only change since then is that I am gigging a lot these days but not with an arranger

Thanks for bringin'up

Technics did make some fine units I loved my KN5000...........I bet many people miss their line of KB's........maybe they'll make a comback in another form soon.........?

The MZ2000 borrowed much of it's design and features from the KN5000. It was quite the board with a lot of useful features and a great onboard sound editor to boot, which was light years ahead of any other arranger I've used and probably better than the Motif ES without using add on software ( Korg's PA80 editor lets you go deeper but is so unintuitive ) .

Notwithstanding it's brand name and its' lack of a vocal harmonizer, I think what killed it was that lacked in that one specific area that is absolutely essential in an arranger.. the styles. There were a few good ones, but most were just plain uninspiring.

AJ

Apart from the cost and such of a new arranger, I don't know that I'd be all that much happier than I still am with my aging Korg i30. I know it can do more than I'll ever ask of it, but the beauty of it is that, over time, you get so familiar with it you can just about fly it with your eyes shut, which is a huge asset when playing live.