New Tyros demos including mega voices and sweet, check them out!
http://svpworld.com/tyrosreview.htm#sounds

Regards
Simon



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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
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Simon,
Very cool....the finger slides and pick sounds....outstanding. I haven't been this excited about getting a new board, for my last 4 boards.
Thanks for the link.
Terry

Yes its pretty impressive, needless to say though I really cannot get excited about the KN7000....

Simon




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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Whew!
Those Mega voices are wonderful. I might have to convince my self to at least TRY this thing,even though I have a NO tolerance policy for "speakerless" boards. Maybe I'll use it in the studio if it's as good as the demo suggests. That guitar strum is terrific.
OK - Donny ..... see ya for breakfast !

I'm also impressed with the quality of these demos. But I wonder if a keyboardist can sound THIS realistic, with just a bunch of keys under his fingers... An important part of the overall effect comes from the instrument technique and not just from the static sample sound. Aren't these demos produced with midi instruments using the keyboard as a sound module?...

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 09-20-2002).]

Sounds awesome!

But are we talking about only 10 of mege voices? Not much, huh?

The megavoices are intended to give this keyboard instrument an "acoustic" edge, that is to add the sparkle of a life performance by emulating the fundamental acoustic and rhythm instruments, the guitar and bass. The Sweet! voices give solo's the edge in realism, the Live! voices add presence and dynamics (e.g. the Live! Drum kits and strings, pianos and Brass) whilst the Cool! voices add warmth and character, e.g. the Jazz guitars and electric piano.

Certainly performing live with the megavoices is probably out of the question, and I dont think that was Yamaha's intention. They are added for creating authentic backing tracks, styles and accompaniment and with the right programming and playing techniques, they give the user more creativity and potential. No matter how good a player you are, its frustrating to be held back by cheesy sounds. On the contrary, if you cant play very well, dont expect to get the best out of these new sounds.

I agree that 10 megavoices doesnt sound much, but then a guitarist doesnt own 10 guitars and a bass player doesnt usually have several basses to play. No doubt in the future we will see more of these "megavoices" appearing in new models, I expect yamaha will begin to introduce them into their psr range with time for enhancing the styles. remember the tyros has a whopping 96MB of voice wave memory, thats more than any other keyboard I know of. Most of that is consumed by these voices, so they do require considerable resources.
As always, the demos are slick and will show off what can be done with the right skills.. as to achieving the same yourself, only time will tell! But it will be fun trying!!!!

Simon


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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Incredible!

I think some of you guys are missing the point. Those 10 Mega voices were used in many (most? all?) of the 300 styles, and they can be used in any of your custom styles, if you have the wherewithall to take advantage of them. I'll probably never be skilled enough to play those guitar demos, Mega voices or no Mega voices, but I can play those styles now! Thanks for posting the demos Simon.

Later,

Midnite

There's a program, Rhythm 'n Chords that works with Cakewalk and Sonar. With it, you can emulate guitar strums and picking with a midi instrument like a keyboard. It's a fantastic program. With it, you get a large rhythm library. So, yes, one can create custom styles with these mega voices if they have Rhythm n Chords - or a midi guitar.

Beakybird

From the Tyros manual and what I've read in other places, I get the impression that you cannot select or use the MegaVoices at all, even in creating your own custom styles. You can immitate a MegaVoice though. If I'm right then a MegaVoice is just a stack of existing individual sounds on the Tyros seperated by velocity zones. Example: an acoustic guitar MegaVoice could have the following individual voices in it: acoustic guitar (possibly seperate voices for high and low tones), acoustic guitar pluck, ac. gtr harmonic/overtone, slide noise, etc. You can select and play those individual sounds yourself, sequence with them, and create custom styles with them by assigning each sound to a midi channel and using lots of midi channels... say five or six to get a psuedo-MegaVoice guitar. And instead of using six notes of polyphony to make a six-string acoustic guitar you might use far more. Yamaha can use the real MegaVoices to get all of those sounds with just one midi channel and probably has a custom sequencer/style creator program and/or a specialized controller setup for preventing overlapping sounds, thereby freeing up more free midi channels/memory/polyphony for other sounds when the MegaVoices are used in performance. This would have the clever side effect of making you rely on Yamaha for more styles that take full advantage of the MegaVoices. Or I've totally missed the boat here and sank to the bottom of the lake...

HI Simon.

Tks for the dependable post.

Brasilian regards,
Chico

No you can play a megavoice, but you must realise that a megavoice IS a combination of sound elements, each triggered by either velocity or octave range. If you attempt to play a megavoice on the keyboard, you will find that you achieve different elements of the voice according to how hard you hit the keys, and also in which octave you play. To achieve the best effect from these voices, you need to fine tune the phrases you record using a sequencer program, in order that the velocity of individual notes will trigger the required "element" in the voice. So, for example if you record at constant velocity of say 100 (example), you might end up on playback with a few chords of lightly strummed steel string guitar. Now, if you increase the velocity of the first notes in each chord to say 110 (example), at the beginning now of each strum in the recorded phrase you will hear a harder strum sound. Then you might like to add a few extra notes at velocity 120 at the end of the chord to produce a finger release sound from the strings...
Achieving the effect of a real guitar strumming will require a lot of practice and no doubt analysis of both a real guitar performance and some of yamaha's megavoice phrases in their styles and songs. One idea would be to first record the best guitar strumming rhythmn as chords on the keyboard using a standard guitar voice. Then, choose a megavoice guitar instead, and tweak the velocities of the recording to the megavoice, such that harder notes in the recording trigger the hard strum elements, and soft ones trigger the soft elements. This is of course a very broad and simplified explanation, but megavoices fetches a whole new concept in playing technique on the keyboard.
As it was said though earlier, yamaha's main intention is for you to enjoy the sound of these new voices with their already preprogrammed styles. The voices are there for those who have the courage to program musical phrases for them!

Regards
Simon



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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Simon: I like your explanation and think it is similar to my own, but I question whether you are able to select and play a megavoice from the Tyros keyboard. Page 80 of the Tyros owners manual specifically says that you cannot do this from the Tyros, nor are the megavoices meant to be used at all by the user due to the near-impossibility of using them in live performance. From what I've read by George Kaye, I gathered that the individual "elements" of a megavoice are available as individual voices that are selectable from the Tyros, but not the composite megavoices themselves. Can you tell me where you read that the megavoices are playable from the Tyros keyboard? Is the Tyros manual wrong or have I misread something?

As I haven't played a Tyros yet, I can't be sure but here is what I think. If you edit one of the "megavoiced" styles, then choosing one of the tracks featuring a megavoice will give you the megavoice at the keyboard. Now you could then store this into one of the registration memories.... and recall in performance mode. Maybe it will work? It's quite possible that if the megavoice is in some obscure bank that it may not be accessible from the main voice list, and that a sequence of midi sysex or bank/program change values sent to the keyboard either from a sequencer or from a file on the keyboard would be needed to access the megavoices. According to the Data list page 38, the data saved to a registration memory or OTS in the style is control change, bank MSB, bank LSB and Program change. Therefore as long as its possible to first choose the voice by sending these signals to the keyboard, it should be possible to store them into a registration memory and then recall them.

Simon



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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Sorry to ruin the party but ...
altough Tyros and/or Genesys are indded an improvement, they are NOT realworld sounding at all. Synth(etic) feeling all over.

My personal fata morgana of Gigastudio-type quality sounds combined with sophisticated auto-acompaniment styles still remains;

I fear there is no alternative than to use harddisk streaming and NOT limited chip-based sounds.

listen to "A little Chopin" at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html

This is a streaming sampled piano.
Imagine a Tyros build with this level of quality...

Aahh imagine....

elle,
Very nice piece, but if your point was that a Tyros or Genesys piano doesn't even come close to the sound you're getting, I disagree completely.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-26-2002).]

Could you also explain why?

Elle,
I have to agree with trtjazz... your streamed piece was excellent quality, but as a former sound engineer I can tell that that was NOT recorded straight off the piano to whatever recording medium was used. It sounds much like it was recorded in a sound studio (or mid-size room) with several strategically placed mics, over-dubbed. mixed and a little effect added - natural or otherwise !

Not to say that that detracts from it's quality in any way, but that it makes it difficult to directly compare to the quality of the 'electronic' versions now on the Tyros.
Basically, apples and grapes dude !!

Regards,
Steve

[This message has been edited by S0C9 (edited 09-26-2002).]

elle,
In listening to the piano in your piece to my ears, though excellent I thought it sounded a bit on the airish side or perhaps too much presence would be a better choice of words, hence it sounded a bit thin to me. where I think on the Tyros and Gensys demos both the pianos sound somewhat richer and fuller to me with a more balanced overall tone.
Terry

P.S. Hey Steve, nice to see you here.

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-26-2002).]

I do not disagree that fully based sampling systems can produce fantastic results, I use them and also rack mounted samplers and with enough effort, anything can just about be replicated to extraordinary levels of realism. However this is not the point of an arranger keyboard! People who buy arranger keyboards want to switch on, press a button and play the thing, not sit down at a computer loading samples and fiddling around for hours. Arrangers provide immediate access to inner creativity, they inspire with instant backings and now providing ever more realistic voices. Of course there are systems available that can produce even better sounds, but we are talking a portable keyboard which you can take anywhere, switch on and play it straight away!

Simon


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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Simon,
I agree with you and is one of the reasons I opt for recording to an AW4416 Yamaha h/d recorder rather than the Sonar 2.0 that has cobwebs on it in my computer.

What I found for me was, with the AW, I press record and go and get alot more music done. With Sonar, I would spend an hour first getting it all ready, then ten minutes recording and 3 days tweeking and editing, just because I could.

I know I am behind the curve with this way of thinking, but it sure works better for me and the creative process.
Terry

Frank,
Respect your opinion...but

"you can make better music than anything up to and including the PSR2000"

First it depends on what you mean by better. Second I think that is real debateable.

I've certainly heard my fair share as has anyone else music that was made on million dollar equipment setups that absolutely sucked. Conversely, I've heard some great music come out of very inexpensive setups.
Terry

I personally play a variety of keyboards live depending on the situation, but I've been told by people who have heard me and/or played with me for a long time that I always sound like "me" no matter what I played. Of course I care about the quality of the sound as well as it's playability but equally I care about the environment I'll be in and what'll work best in terms of available stage room, transportation, will require the least on-site setup/takedown, and be the most reliable. And it has to sound great. Tyros, 9000Pro, Gigasampler... I'll take all three thanks.

Frank,

can you post some of your songs created with your system for us to hear?

Samples in arranger rom-memory (32-64-128 megabytes) are no match for hard disk streaming samples (multiple gigabytes). That's just a plain fact.

The piano piece I mentioned was 'thrown' togehter by a good pianist, just using the Post Bosendorfer 290 Gigasamples(http://www.postaudiomedia.com/producthtml/bosendorfer.html, $199)

Like Frank I'm seeking to combine the best of sounds (= disk-streaming, certainly for acustic instruments) with (software) arrangers.

There is still a way to go, however.
For instance: so far there are no satisfactory 'streaming' GM sets which can be combined with (software) arrangers.
I do appreciate the great amount of tweaking done by arranger engineers. However, the sample technology used (rom-sounds) is not the best, simply because the "no-loop", "nach note sampled 8 to 16 times" (velocity layers), requires gigabytes.

Frank and Elle,
I think you are missing Simons (and The Pro's) very valuable point - arranger keyboards are turn-on, pick a style and go - either at home OR live.

While I for one will not dispute the quality of 'pure' sampling and the ease of use (with a "little work up front") in the studio environment, I can't really see you picking up that computer (plus card, cables, board, mouse, speakers, etc), putting it in an SKB case and showing up at the gig ready to play.

Again I think it's unfair to discuss/compare apples and oranges.

Regards,
Steve

Steve and all,
I agree Steve it's apples and oranges, but further it's two totally different kinds of musicians we're talking about also desktop vs playing musician. If we follow the former trend....heck we won't need instruments at all, no endless hours of practice and technical expertise, then music will be made by programmers (no offense Steve) not musicians at all.
Terry

Hi all,

As we all know, there's 2 kinds of arranger users. I suppose Frank and I belong to the ones that don't do life performances and are more into seeking the ultimate in "auto-accompaniment sound" as such. Life performers (both at home or onstage) foremost need stability and 'instant gratification'. Two different approaches, usages and 'quests' altogether.

However...and this exactly is my point ...the systems of both these arranger user-types show a clear tendency to merge;

My humble guess is that the next wave in arrangers will offer some form of HD streaming samples, simply because this constitues the next wave in "acoustic reality'.

This is what Frank and I are trying to frickle out of our combined systems today.

Obviously the "instant gratificatos" will always need hardware controllers, but that's what the arrangers are already becoming :
button pushing controllers for an ever more open internal streaming softsynth & sampler.
That's also what softwynth affectionados are using : harward controlers to avoid a mouse clicking nervous breakdown.

All what's needed is combining/interfacing two markets into one product: software arrangers with software streaming samplers.

The Wintel hardware needed for a software only 'instant' arranger is available already;

What's lacking is an interest from the small software sampler vendor market to look into the small arranger market and maybe differentiate their product line from a 'studio/film composer only' focus into also developing an arranger oriented module/interface.

Or maybe the - even smaller - software arranger companies (see Frank's suggestions) should talk to softsampler vendors like Tascam/Gigastudio to take the current 'tweakerish' sample arranging to the 'instant level'

Ahhh, we all have our dreams.

Frank & Elle,
I have no doubt, the boards are slowly moving the way you would like to see them, in the name of progress.

I suppose my point in the final analysis FOR ME is....sometimes more and more is just too much. Tweeking, u/l'n d/ln', sampling, resampling. bigger better faster, more more more, which leads us to believe to make good music, we need more more more. I guess just a bit of future shock and progress overlaod. What ever happened to just sitting down and making some music?
Terry

I couldn't agree more,.. but then again
Aren't we human or what:-)

I couldn't agree more,.. but then again
Aren't we human or what:-)