I have implemented significant updates and enhancements to the software only to warrant the name change to FLR2005. In summary the changes include:

forte Ensemble update to version 1.5.78
Live - Styler update to version 8.0.21
Cakewalk Project5 to version 2
Cakewalk Sonar to version 4
Kontakt to version 2 includes many new voices or instruments
Added 32 GB Quantum Leap Colossus which includes 14GB GM Bank.

I have not fully tested this new system since most of the software only arrived yesterday. It seems this system will be ideal for studio and club work. It takes about 15 seconds to load the massive instruments for the accompaniment. Kontakt and Colossus are GM compatible. Also, I will continue to use Kontakt for my Melody or Lead vocies. However for other live performances I will continue to use LiveSynth Pro and soundfonts which load instantly for the accompaniment.

I will complete the testing in a week or so and let you know what I find. The initial test run indicates a very reliable system.....and it sounds awesome.

The FLR2005 Arranger System is expensive and is not for the faint of heart when it comes to installation. You should try it. You are worth it!!!

I am excited.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-27-2005).]

Thanks for the update, Frank. I have ordered Kontakt2 as well. It sounds like it has some arranger features built in via its scripting module. Wow, 14 GB GM bank?!

Hi Frank,

I'm really, really interested in what you think of it after you've had a chance to play around with Colossus, and would very much appreciate a "review" of it.

Thanks,
Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

What IS it? I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Well, software but WHAT software? Sounds interesting but uh, a link?

I'm interested to see how you like The new version of Project 5 Frank. I tried the earlier version and thought it was a cool app, but I just felt more comfortable working in Orion and FL Studio.

My system is similar in a lot of ways, yet many of my apps are different. I use XLutop Chainer as my plugin host along with SFZ+ for soundfonts. I use OMB instead of Live Styler for auto accomp, although I've been using Jamstix's arfranger function more for drums lately. I've also revisited Jammer Pro 5 and can see a lot of good in it for me. Now that I understand it better,, I think it's a huge step up from version 4. I use several virtual analogs, and I often use Hypersonic for GM. I do use Kontakt and Sonar 4 though.

That's the beauty of it too I think. You can choose among several apps and different paths to customize your own system for the way it works best for you.

Sounds like a very nice system Frank. Enjoy..

AJ

Thanks for all your responses. Yes, I will let you know how well this all works in a week or so.

On another matter Bluezplayer, I would like your views with respect to Live - Styler vs OMB. I don't know what it is the new versions of LS fail on my music computer and find myself having to go back to older versions. LS version 8.0.21 is giving me some trouble after the installation of all my new software. I might beable to find the problem after some more analysis. We'll see.

Thank you

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-27-2005).]

Frank, kudos on your new FLR system, and I look
forward to your analysis.

BTW, are you still using the Audigy card for
soundfonts, or just software like LiveSynth?
And, are Kontakt2 and Colossus also XG compatible?

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 04-27-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 04-27-2005).]

Frank,
Is Live - Styler update to version 8.0.21, available to the masses, or is this the beta version?
Starkeeper

OMB and Live-Styler is software that turns a computer into a software arranger. It requires a MIDI keyboard for input into the computer. The "sounds" or "voices" can be generated from the computer as well. An external speaker system would be connected to the soundcards output.
To generate the voices you could use soundfonts and/or vst (software) instruments or an external module.
As Frank said, this is not for the faint of heart or dummies (like me). I thought I was fairly computer/software literate, but I find setting up to be challenging. . Rikkisbears, Frank, and Bluezplayer are software experts, IMO.
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 04-27-2005).]

Oh, Oh, Oh......I think I manufactured another major accident. That's what I get for not asking all the right questions.

It turns out that Kontakt 2 and the Colossus Player (Kompakt) still are unable to send or recieve program change numbers. The saving grace is that I can setup multi-instruments for each style and call them up along with the style and play. It is an extra step but takes no more time other then upfront to setup all these multis. Well I made a mess in my own nest. It is not a waste in that I have a high quality GM Wavetable together with very good GM Drums.

So in summary here's what I need to do to make this work (marginal return on my investment):

Convert all the styles to GM
Setup Multis for all the styles
Ensure all instrument changes within each style element is on a separate channel (fills, variations, intros, endings, etc.).

This is a little much for a marginal old man who may only realize a marginal return on his investment!!!

Maybe someone else could investigate this, but the above is my understanding based on a phone conversation with East West Tech Support. Oh, My....

Looking in my Kontakt 2 manual Page 44 and I quote:
'Finally, an Instrument Bank is special type of instrument that can be used with a Multi-Instrument. It is essentially a "container" for multiple instruments, where each Instrument can be selected via Midi Program changes. You drag instruments into the Program Change slots from the browser or the rack.'

Who knows I might be lucky afterall with this GM stuff???

not meaning to "teach a granny how to suck eggs" but are you guys using GM1, or the newer GM2 default sounds? In GM2 there a heaps more sounds in deeper banks other than the standard 127, required by GM...just wondering

peace, out

Hi Frank,
it does mention something about program changes on the site, so hopefully everything will be ok.

You never know, maybe one of these days they'll use xg drum mapping like the reason gm font you put me on to. Then the drum compatibility woes would be over ( haahaa)
http://www.reasonbanks.com/pvitamin_map2.html

Enjoy your new software.

p.s. I'm having a bit of fun playing round with Vienna and drum mapping. I'm trying put together a drum font that sounds similar to my Clavinova's XG drums, making my styles a bit more interchangeable between the 2 soundsources ( fonts & Clav's xg).

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, its good to see you are still busy at making all this software stuff work for you.....perfectly. Yes, I think it will work out for me with regard to the GM compatibility issue. The NI Kompakt Player which comes with Colossus may not beable to receive program change messages as the East West Tech indicated but I can always use Kontakt for this. Nonetheless, conversion of the Yamaha Styles to GM from XG remains alot of boring work....but I will do it once and then its done.

Colossus is a 14 GB GM Bank (not GM2). You really do not need more than the regular GM provided the voices are of high quality. In cases where I need a specific voice like Pedal Steel I would just change it out for some of the synth voices which I never use. As side in my initial post the styles do sound very good using this GM Bank. I just need to get the program change happening and then I am away to the races.

Rikki, it occurs to me suddenly I should have asked you also why you prefer OMB over Live - Styler. I still have not solved the conflicts with it after the installation of all this new software. Nonetheless this is all very exciting. I will get it all to work sooner or later.

Hey Frank

Sounds interesting. You've peaked my curiosity. Any chance of some online mp3 demo's of your new system?

Best
Scott Langholff http://www.ScottLMusic.com

Rikki, its good to see you are still busy at making all this software stuff work for you.....perfectly. Yes, I think it will work out for me with regard to the GM compatibility issue. The NI Kompakt Player which comes with Colossus may not beable to receive program change messages as the East West Tech indicated but I can always use Kontakt for this. Nonetheless, conversion of the Yamaha Styles to GM from XG remains alot of boring work....but I will do it once and then its done.

Colossus is a 14 GB GM Bank (not GM2). You really do not need more than the regular GM provided the voices are of high quality. In cases where I need a specific voice like Pedal Steel I would just change out an exiting synth voice which I never use with it. As I said in my initial post the styles do sound very good using this GM Bank. I just need to get the program change happening and then I am away to the races.

Rikki, it occurs to me suddenly I should have asked you also why you prefer OMB over Live - Styler. I still have not solved the conflicts with it after the installation of all this new software. Nonetheless this is all very exciting. I will get it all to work sooner or later.



[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 04-27-2005).]

Hi Frank,
mainly because OMB is an all in one package.
Realtime Arranger
Style Editor
Sequencer
Arranger etc

I basically flick from one function to the other. If a styles not working , I check out why in the stylemaker page fix it and test it.
Arranger page, I can type in a chord progression and put in the style parts ( from up to 10 different styles) handy for auditioning styles for songs without worrying about hitting wrong notes or chords. In short I can concentrate on what it actually sounds like. ( Also use Busker Software for this)
Also realized I can scan sheet music and use it with omb in realtime ie it scrolls as you play styles . Haven't had much time to spend on that, but it intersts me, as I read, I can't play by ear.

Livestyler sort of "looks" more proffessional than omb. I did try it originally about a year ago, but te version I had , couldn't play piano arpeggio's correctly ie I had some piano styles from my 9000pro and it just didn't play them right wheras OMB did. I had other sorts of styles playing okay, but not the ones I wanted. By that stage I got so involved with OMB, I never went back to Live Styler. Suppose I should give it another go oneday, especially since we're up to vers 8.

best wishes
Rikki

Well I worked on my FLR2005 Arranger System for about 20 hours and it sounds fantastic but tragically.....it doesn't work!!!

Kontakt does very very very very poorly when it comes to recognizing and implementing program change numbers. You would need to load the 14GB GM Wavetable 16 times (once for each channel) for it to work. Well even with DFD the best computer would not beable to handle this. Oh well!!!

NI, acknowledges the problem and plan to have a fix for it by Q3, i.e., Kontakt v2.1.

So in the mean time I will use the new version of Kontakt. It has many excellent features & high quality (scripting, effects, sound engine, etc.). From my Colossus Library I can immediately make use of excellent acoustic virtual instruments and amazing drumkits. I will convert my styles to the GM Standard while I wait for all this to be fixed. If it doesn't get fixed there is the Halion route I can take. It does well with Program Changes and can convert Kontakt Libraries to its format. I would rather not go to Steinberg - dongles are idiot things to use for protection - terrible.

I have high hopes that everything will work before the year is up.

hi frank,on your previous system,you was saying that the sound quality on your system was superior by using the more up to date software compared to what you hear on a top of the range arranger,a few others have followed gone down the same road,ie, vquestor,rikki,this may sound like a daft question but,if you was to upload a song would it sound the same on our keyboards as on your system or would our keyboard not play as good due to the limits of our keyboards be of a lower standard,mike

mike, when I say the sound is superior to any hardware based system I mean the instruments sound more realistic, there is less noise, there is less distortion and so on. Some of this comes about from higher quality effects and samples. Samples do not use looping. They have more samples per instruments and per velocity. As an example, pianos have every key sampled at 7 up and 7 down velocities plus release samples. This is why the Piano is 2.5 GB as compared to a couple of MBs in a hardware based module or keyboard.

So the whole thing just sounds more realistic......but its not perfect. Modelling a B3 Organ (NI B4) or a Saxophone would yield better results. Same could be said for guitars or other acoustic instruments. On some of the libraries I use the samples include keyswitching, e.g., changing from a smooth sax to a growling sax by depressing a key in a lower octave of your keyboard....but modelling is still better.

For the sound to sound similar to my system you would need to use my software and sample libraries. Plus you would need professional quality sound cards, e.g., RME, Echo, VSL, etc. The same applies to your audio equipment (speakers, mixer, amps, etc.).

One thing I would like to make clear is that the hardware based solutions are good enough quality for live performances and have a better control surfaces. For studio, club work, etc. a system such as mine makes more sense....you notice the quality.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-04-2005).]

Hi,
I've only partially gone down the same road as Frank. My computer setup isn't on a par with Frank's, mines only a laptop with 512mb's of memory.
Originally I was only interested in running OMB software with a hardware soundsource
( my Clavinova clp170 ) but as time went on, I became more & more interested in using software based sounds.
Reason for giving up the hardware arrangers was that I realized most of the styles I use were converted styles . Most of them needed a certain amount of tweaking. So for me it's no great hassle, I'd have to tweak the styles for whatever soundsource I decided to use, be it a brand new arranger keyboard, my clavinova or the soundfonts.
My focus is to put together a software based arranger for as little money as possible but still have reasonably good sounds using soundfonts. Certainly not on a par with Frank's system, but hopefully it should sound ok with relatively little money spent ( except for my computer and clavinova which I use as a controller).
best wishes
Rikki

thanks frank and rikki for your responses,it seems more so now, that there are good alternatives with the upto date software ,rather than change keyboards every year or two,just to have a few upgrades and possibly lose some functions,but it does look like some of the manufacturers,liontracks, and wersi and 1 or 2 others are going down a similar route as you,it would be nice to hear how these new keyboard systems compare with yours once they become established ,mike

One thing I would like to make clear is that the hardware based solutions are good enough quality for live performances and have a better control surfaces. For studio, club work, etc. a system such as mine makes more sense....you notice the quality.

Dear Frank;

I am extrapolating form your comments above. Are you saying that by using these VST plus ins,and sampler data (giga, kontact etc) in live performance that the improved sound quality would be watsed in live-use vs. in studio use?

Is the sound quality degraded that much in live performances that one ( Players & audience) would not be able to tell the difference between hardware & software sounds banks?

I can definitely hear the differnce between them on MP3.


Regards;
BN

BN, musicians would notice the difference in all/most circumstances. Audiences do not pay enough attention to notice the improvement in sound. It is a trade-off to spend the money for improvements that most would not notice. Plus the control surface is not as good.

Will I ever go back to a hardware based solution - not likely!!! Just playing a jazz piece by myself in my studio is such a pleasure. The system sounds so good. There is nothing like an almost real Piano, Bass and Jazz Brush Kit. The rest of the world can pass me by and I would not notice.

For me it is worth it.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-06-2005).]

Hi Frank,
you definately know that it won't work?? ie that it won't recognize program changes in multitimbral mode.
Is it a case of not recognizing them at all, or does it have a problem recognizing too many at one time ie the system gets flooded with too much data and it can't cope??

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
Kontakt does very very very very poorly when it comes to recognizing and implementing program change numbers.

Rikki, I am not certain on what the issue is but apparently NI knows about it and plan a fix for it. The way it works now is that you have to load the GM bank for each of the 16 channels. This takes way to much memory and takes to long. You should only need to load the wavetable once and set midi to Omni and use the proper instruments on each channel.

I guess I am a little surprised that a high calibre company like NI manages to get this wrong. LiveSynthPro was written by one person in their spare time - and got it right. Now Kontakt 2 is an extraordinarily complex piece of software. Once they get it working it will be very powerful indeed. So I have have high hopes but need to wait a long time.

Hi Frank,
how thoroughly dissapointing for you. Tis a bit hard to beleive that you'd have to load the full gm bank for each of the midi channels.
Normally ( if you weren't using it with arranger software) would you only load the instruments required for a particular piece of music. Not a terribly satisfactory method in this day & age.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, you are absolutely correct. For a midi file you could load in advance all the appropriate instruments in the appropriate channels and you could play the file. However, if there are program changes further down the midi file on the same channel you would be out of luck....dogs barking instead of humans whistling.... You can, of course, do the same with styles,i.e., preload the instruments and play. Yes, there are alternatives and I will find a way but first I will likely just load up a Drum Kit Bank and a Bass Bank and use LiveSynth Pro for the rest. In other cases where I am really fussy I will preload all the instruments and save it as a scene in forte and call it up with a program change number. The trouble with this is that it takes longer to load.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-07-2005).]

Frank,
What is the problem with Vsampler, is it
still too buggy or is the fidelity not
up to par with Kontakt or Halion?

Vquestor, you are right VSampler is not ready for prime time. It never seems to be rid of bugs. It lacks in overall quality of the sound engine and effects ---- very noticable. In addition it adheres strictly to GM ..... but does a better job of it than Kontakt at the moment. Kontakt v2 will evolve into a spectaclar sampler over the next six months. I just jumped in a bit to soon. With the script feature you can do anything midi can do and more. You can program in harmonics, legato and more.

Oh, I kind of like this modelled sax:
http://www.ueberschall.com/

Press Products
Press Liquid Instrument Sax
Press One of the Play buttons


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-07-2005).]

Hi Frank,
I personally don't use dozens & dozens of different styles, I have a collection of favourites, and for those I went to quite a bit of trouble editing them , insofar as making sure I didn't have program changes, volume changes etc happening within the various style parts (unless absolutely neessary.)

Fortunately OMB has global settings for volume, program changes etc as well as being able to put these settings into individual tracks. Allowed me to easily identify in the stylemaker section of the program, where the program changes existed.

I then made sure all the intruments were uniform throughout the style ie piano's were just say on midi channel 13, guitar on channel 14 , strings on 15 etc I was the able to delete any superflous program changes embedded in the tracks and just use the global program change for each of the midi channels. Can be a fair bit of work, depending on the style. A lot of mine are commercial styles, and some converted styles and they needed a bit more work than psr styles. To me it was worth it though, should I ever change sound sources again.

May not help in your situation ,though.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, I can see you are very particular when it comes to styles. As you said, once the job is done you can jump to any GM sound source and play. Very flexible!!!

Yes you can. You must bring up all the instruments that you want in as a bank (ie: .nkb), and then you can call up any of the instruments in that bank from your keyboard.

(I just bought my copy of Kontakt 2 on Wednesday and just tried out that option today.)

Chony

BTW, what kind of computer are you using? I'm using a 1.33ghz G4 powerbook, and am having problems with it. Every time I hit my CPU limit my computer goes balistic until I click on something in the Kontakt screen.

Also, don't forget to upgrade to 2.01. There's a major improvement on the convovlution effect. I was unable to use my Steinberg D Grand (included in the Kontakt package) without significant latency (35ms), until I loaded this update.

I'm considering buying the Bosendorfer 290 grand. Do you have any experience with it? And how about Drumkit from Hell (dfh)?

Enjoy the program! I'm happy to know that there's somone on this forum to share information with on this program!

Sorry I just noticed that you worked it out without me.

Do you find that working off a computer is reliable for Live performances? In my three or four days with Kontakt I have had too many problems to rely on it solely. And I haven't been using 32GB of sound either! Even when I'm just on the Steinberg Grand (makes no difference if I use the full or lite version), I run into CPU problems (granted that I use up to 62 notes at a time). So I just can't understand how you're planning to trigger everything - up to 10 instruments it would seem - from your laptop.

When I bought my laptop half a year ago, it was the most powerful computer on the market, so I really hope that this problem is something I can solve. I don't want to have to wait for the G5.

Also, please give me the phone number to NI. I notice that you've been in contact with them, and I really must work out why I'm having unreasonable problems with my CPU. And once we're at it, how about the phone number to east west? I couldn't find it on their website.

Do you use an audio interface? Or do you just use the built in output from your computer?

I know I've asked a lot of questions in the last two posts, I'd appreciate if you get the chance to answer some of them!

Thanks a lot!

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 05-08-2005).]

chony, my hope is that you stay with it. It takes some effort to get each particular system up and running. Once you have done so you will find it very very very very reliable. I have no failures on my system for over a year. Keep in mind I use my music computer only for music.....and nothing else. This helps...I think.

Kontakt 2 still has some issues. Once we get the v2.1 in Q3 things will likely work a whole lot better. I will use Kontakt 2 as I did Kontakt 1.5, i.e., for my lead voices. I load 8 to 10 voices on separate channels and call up different instruments from my keyboard by just changing channels. My jazz setup might look like:

Channel l Organ
2 Flute
3 Trumpet
4 Sax
5 Strings
6 Piano
7 Vibes
8 Jazz Guitar

For the Auto Accompaniment I use LiveSynth Pro & modified sYnerGi GS wavetable.

My Computer is homemade standard PC:

3.02 GHz, 2GB RAM, 2 80GB 7200rpm HDs
2 sound cards Audigy 2ZS Platium (midi in/out) & Steinbergs VSL2020 (audio)
Windows XP

There are some members on the Kontakt forum experiencing similar problems as you have. I too occasionaly get hits where the CPU usage is up close to 100% but things settle down and I can play. I will use Kontakt 2 for live performances.....but it is not quite ready for prime time.....a little risky. I am not worried I just swing over to Kontakt 1.5 if things don't work out.

Here is NI's phone number but you may only get a voice mail box (not a live human):
323-467-2693.
East West Soundsonline: 310-271-6969

I find at this point they are not to willing to talk to customers. They don't have all the answers nailed down. Over time they will get it right. They have a whole lot of important rich customers....Hollywood.

I think one of the problems of CPU usage is their reverb (convolution). This can bring down even the most powerful PC/MAC. Try turning off the reverb. I use Cakewalk's Sonitus effects. They are not nearly as good but don't bring down your computer. Sonitus effects are a whole lot higher quality then what you will find in keyboards...even better than the best...Yamaha.

If you are using a laptop you need to use ASIO drivers to keep the latency down. An external soundcard and HD would be very helpful. You should keep all your samples/instruments on the external HD (8mb Cache & 7200rpm). You should beable to keep your latency to 2.9ms.....10ms or less is preferred. As I said ASIO drivers should help in this regard: http://www.asio4all.com/

Oh, it just occurred to me that another place where things can go badly wrong and that is with their Quick Database. Kontakt needs to set this up initially and most hosts don't wait around long enough and causes the whole thing to crash. Try running Kontakt as a standalone until it has the Quick Database setup (Files/Folders/Drives for the samples and instruments). I would just as soon they give up on this feature. I can find my instruments and samples on my own...quickly. GigaStudio had problems with this as well. I don't know whether Kontakt has a problem with this but when I started out it shut down my host pretty often.

I hope this helps. Just don't give up. You will be reward with magnificent sound. As an example of a perfect Jazz Combo:

Scarbee/Colossus Bass
Bardstown/Steinway D Piano
Bardstown Jazz Guitar
Colossus Drum kits

The Drum Kit From Hell are considered the among the best but they may not be GM compatible. I would give the kits in Colossus a try first. The Bardstown Bosendorfer 290 is just great...I use it all the time. The Steinway D which comes with Colossus is also excellent and I would stay with it for starters.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-09-2005).]

Thanks Frank,

I have no idea how you carry around a desktop computer to your performances. That's out of the question for me!

I'm hoping that Kontakt will manage to get their things in order soon. Any word on a possible release time for 2.1?

It makes it easier to understand that Kontakt works for you if you only use it for lead! So what program or format do you use for your styles etc?

I think I'm going to take your advice on an external harddrive though. My laptop only runs at 5400rpm! I've never had issues with it yet using Cubase and Logic, but I guess Kontakt understandbly puts a lot more stress on it.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to increase the processor speed of my computer by connecting it to another computer - say a Mac Mini, and using the CPU of both combined...

Thanks again, Chony.

chony, for my auto accompaniment (styles) I use LiveSynth Pro (not available anymore), Live - Styler (plays yamaha styles) and sYnerGi GS (modified 128 mb soundfont wavetable). There are other synths that are GM compatible and can load soundfont wavetables. If you want to get up and running quickly I would use sYnerGi GS given that it uses XG compatible drums. Any of the instruments you don't like you can delete and add those you like better.

It is not hard carting around my music PC. My Roland A37 controller keyboard and my PC weighs only little more than an arranger keyboard. Everything is marked and easy to connect. You can, of course, do all this with a laptop today. When I built my music PC a few years ago the laptops were not up to it plus the external soundcards and HDs were also not up to it. If I were to rebuild my system solely for live performances I would like go with the small liquid cooled PCs: http://sys.us.shuttle.com/ http://www.truespec.com/computersystems/daudio/shuttle/index.shtml

My second choice would be a laptop.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-08-2005).]

Chony, here are a couple of forums you wish to use for NI Kontakt (if you haven't already):
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/site/forum_us/forumdisplay.php?f=33 http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

Most of these members are professionals in their respective fields and know more than I do.

Thank you very much Frank,

I like that box computer - but I still prefer my laptop which has its own screen built in!

I've been reading through the Kontakt 2 manual and wow, it really seems like an exciting program. Can't wait to get my hands dirty!

Chony

Hi FLR,

I can't for the life of me work out how to create a group (ie: to select certain zones and then edit them together). I assume it should be easy. Can you help?

Chony

The only problem with my laptop is that it tends to get pretty warm when I'm running it close to the max. It has even shut down on me a couple of times. The good news is that I would never need to push it that hard during a live performance. I only need a few basic effects, a soundfont, OMB and a few softsynths in that scenario.

Even so, the liquid cooled cube seems like it might be an even better solution, but whatever I do, I want to build my next system from scratch, with the most minimal amount of Windows apps that I can get by with .

AJ

chony, I am not certain what you mean by editing a group. I assume you mean you wish to change the characteristics of some of the samples within an instruments. If that is the case you need to go into to the edit mode which shows the samples displayed across the keyboard. Once there you highlight (pressing the left mouse button) and looping the samples in question. Now you can take whatever actions on these samples you wish to take. I think the actions can be displayed by placing the mouse over the highlighted area and pressing the right mouse button.

The help file that comes with kontakt is fairly good. Also making use of the forums I have indicated can sometimes be helpful. When you get no response usually that means noone knows the answer and you may need to go to NI for advice.

Another approach I find useful is just to launch Kontakt, take a simple (small) instrument and go thru all the buttons on the GUI and see how they work. It is very hard for me to describe how to use Kontakt via the Internet unless it is a straight forward issue.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 05-11-2005).]

Thanks FLR,

It was a straight forward issue and you answered it for me. I right clicked on the selected zones in the mapping editor and selected "move selected zones to empty group" and that did the trick.

(I use a Mac and for some reason the people at apple refuse to build their machines with two buttons on their laptops. Our options are to buy another two button mouse, or press the option key as we click...)

Thanks for your help!
Chony

Chony, lucky for me.

Frank,
How is Kontakt 2 with respect to Program Change and Bank Select messages?

Vquestor, I still can't get it to work properly. I have talked to others who have had better success. I will keep at it.

My goal is to convert everything over to Kontakt and use Colossus GM Wavetable for my auto accompaniment and use top of the line instruments for my lead or melody voices. I am close but no cigar.

Hey Frank, if you don't consider the $1000 Colossus to be high grade good enough for lead voices, what do you use? Seems like a lot of money for "accompaniment" voices.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Tom, I guess I am on a bit of a crusade and like tinkering with technology and music. You are absolutely correct in that Colossus is more than what one would need for live performances. In a studio one may notice the higher quality of a 2.5GB Bosendorfer Sampled Piano. In a Jazz Club a 70MB piano may well be enough. In fact, I am getting so old and frail that I can't tell the difference between someone hitting a bath tub or snare drum.....its real bad.

So I have no real justification other than its an exciting hobby for me. Now it is not to say that when people listen to me play they are overwhelmed by the quality of the sound (not my playing). This to keeps me going.

My current challenge is to make Colossus & Kontakt flawlessly accept program and bank changes. This will increase the quality over what I have been using for auto accompaniment (LiveSynth Pro and modified sYnerGi GS Wavetable).

Doc-Z, LiveSynth Pro and Kontakt are sample players. Kontakt is a high quality sample player often used in professional studios and live performances. LiveSynth Pro is no longer available. I used it initially so I could load a GM/GS/XG wavetable and play Yamaha styles (auto accompaniment). You could use a GM wavetable but you would need to modifiy the Yamaha styles (drums and other voices).

To play large samples you need a high quality sample player (Kontakt) and a computer with a 7200 rpm drive and a 8 mb cache. The way this works is that a small portion of each sample is loaded into memory and as you hit a note the rest of the sample is streamed from the hard drive. You need a hardware & software system with low latency (less than 10ms). I run my system at around 2 to 3ms --- not hard to do with todays computers and good sound cards.

If your objective is to get as close as possible to the live sound of acoustic instruments then this is the way to do it.

Frank, keep up the great work, and please
keep us up to date with your progress.

Just to be curios, how can one aquire LiveSynth Pro when it is no longer available? And is 16GB really necessesary to sample instruments? It sounds a bit like overkill

Doc-Z

Doc-Z, it all depends on your goals and tastes as to whether 16GB is overkill. Yes, there comes a time of deminishing returns or it may even be like 'picking fly shit out of pepper'....hard to do .... no big returns.... but it feels good when it works for you!!!!

To satisfy yourself on this you could listen to some of the demos available at the various Sample Developer's web sites, e.g., Bardstown Audio, VRSound, VSL, EastWest, and so on.

Regarding LiveSynth Pro you could email me at flr@mts.net.

Should you decide to go down the soft arranger system road, it may be best to convert your styles to the GM format (sounds and drums) and then you can use other samplers to play GM Wavetables....and there are many, many choices for you (samplers & wavetables). I recommend it and you will never turn back....but the drawback is that the control surface is not as good as with a hardware based arranger system but the quality and flexibility of a software based system makes it all worth it.

Also you need to have a good dose of patience to make all this work for you. Plus it takes a fair amount of effort up front to put it all together and make it work. Once you got it....it is easily as reliable as any hardware based solution. To help with reliability I use two computers (one for editing and testing and general use and the other solely for playing music).

This is just my opinion....an old fragile man's opinion.

Frank, does Kontakt require all drumkits
to be in Bank 128? Can you have 2 kits, one
on ch.9 and one on ch.10?
Also, will a .sty file with Bank 127 select
messages be selecting the correct kit, albeit
from Bank 128?
Thanks.

Vquestor, here is where most of the issues arise. I have not been able to make the selection of the appropriate drumkit work in Kontakt. I think in the end I will have to use two instances of Kontakt (one for the instruments and another for the drums). The drums will likely need to be placed on channel 10 and given the appropriate kit number (program change number). I would have to say that these kind of issues are at best a pain. You would think by now every man and his dog would know the rules and would be wise enough to implement them correctly....oh well. I will get it working.

Hello again, I would love to hear a sample of what your system sounds like in action!

Doc-Z

Doc-Z, many over the years have asked me to produce a sample of what my system sounds like. I have resisted in doing so due to my poor (make it very very very very poor) musicianship which would only serve to distract from the quality of the software based system.

Another way to find out for yourself what the system sounds like is to try the free demos avialable on the internet, e.g., OMB, LiveStyler, VSTs, effects, virtual instruments, etc. As noted previously the sample developers often have examples of what their virtual instruments sound like. These examples are done by professional musicians who do justice to such instruments.

Hi Frank

What are you using for vocal harmony, if anything?

Clif

Clif, I am using Akai DecaBuddy and Antares for my harmony and pitch correction software. It seems to work well with my software based system and the Roland A37 Controller keyboard. There are other alternatives, e.g, Clone Ensemble, Steinberg's VoiceMachine, etc. A search of the internet could indicate additional choices.