Chord recognition problem and product suggestion

First let me confess, I am a die-hard single finger chord player. To me, the ultimate instrument was the Hammond S6 chord organ, which for ease of use has not been equalled. I usually play "organ style" (chords in a left-hand voice, with the accompaniment stopped). I learned the Yamaha simplified chord scheme many years ago and don't want to change now. For those unfamiliar, it works like this: to play a major chord, you press only one key-- the root note. However to play a minor or seventh chord, you must press the root note and a nearby key to its left. Therein lies the problem.

For example, to play a D-minor chord, you must press the D and D-flat keys simultaneously. The problem occurs when the D-flat key registers first. The keyboard *immediately* plays a D-flat major chord before audibly re-pitching to the intended D-minor chord.

Now before you fault my playing skill, think about something... In the computer world, no two events occur *exactly* simultaneously. Even if you make a conscious effort to press both keys at the same time, one will register in the keyboard's electronic brain a few thousandths of a second before the other.

The super-fast processor in the PSR-3000 may be partly to blame. The single-finger chord recognition in my Korg Pa50 is very accurate and forgiving. But the Pa50 operates at a reasonable 384 clock ticks per beat, while the PSR-3000 is ripping along at 1920 clocks/beat. When I review recorded passages, the time frame for false chord recognition is almost always less than 55 ticks (around 2 ms). So it makes me wonder whether older, slower Yamahas share this problem.

What's worse, when inadvertent chord recognition does occur, the XF/XG portamento control causes a squeaky pitch glide that spoils the performance. It also shows up as unwanted extra notes in the bass clef. If you are recording at a fast tempo (180 bpm or more), sometimes whole chords are falsely imparted to the score.

So I am requesting an OS upgrade or bug fix, which establishes a positive "window" or time envelope for chord recognition. The duration of the window could be a performance parameter that is user adjustable (within a range from say, 2 to 76 ms) to accommodate less-than-precise key presses. I am aware of the Technics problems from years ago and acknowledge that this could result in a slight "lag" before the chord is resolved and sounded. But within limits this lag would be preferable to prematurely sounding (and scoring) the wrong chord. Somehow the Korg Pa50 manages to do it reliably. And pro players fear not, this window would only apply to single finger mode.

Better still, I would like to see Yamaha offer a midi "Chord Controller", consisting of eight rows of twelve chord buttons, each row arranged "accordion style" in a Circle of Fifths. This would duplicate the simple and effective control interface of Hammond's S6, and permit eight varieties of TRULY single finger chords. To complete the virtual S6 experience, a pair of pedals could be offered to sound the bass root and fifth.

Sorry for the long rant. I look forward to hearing other single-finger chord players' experiences and suggestions on this issue.

Respectfully,
Ted Sowirka
Fort Worth, TX

Note: This has also been posted to psrtutorial.com for the widest possible response. -Ted

[This message has been edited by TedS (edited 06-21-2006).]

Ted, you have no idea what you are missing by not playing full chords with your left hand. It adds some realism to the styles – it adds you. The more “I” can do the more realistic the keyboard sounds.
1-Big Band – my left hand adds another instrument controlled by me. A second brass section – some strings – a piano playing some beautiful changes.
2-The same for ballads.
3-Bosa Nova or some forms of jazz my left hand can strum like a guitar.
There are times when my left hand interferes with the style, then it’s turned it off.

I had a good friend who played accordion most of his life, he used one finger chords. He finally made the transition and said it added so much to his playing. After a month or two he became comfortable. The time and effort is worth the reward.

IMHO, John C.

Teds. You have writen an interesting article which gave an insight to you single fingered playing. This is not a criticism of single finger playing because a lot of players us it, but a number of single finger chords still require 3 keys to be pressed so one might as well learn fingered chords. The type of chords available with single finger is limited to just a few, but playing fingered chords gives you a vast list of chord options and inversions.
Plus as already mentioned above by Bruno you can add a nice left hand voice like guitar \ piano \ strings.

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 06-22-2006).]

Hi TedS,

You are in exactly the same position as I am, except I learned to play Korg/Roland's simplified fingering scheme (they are the same - at least they used to be). So why does this matter?

I while back, I bought a Tyros 1, but sent it back for a refund, and to wait until the Korg PA1X became available.

I am only a casual player, so I depend on simplified chord fingering (1 note for roots, 2 notes for minors and sevenths, and 3 notes for diminished or augmented chords, etc.). I originally started out playing Roland and Korg arrangers, in fact I currently have a Korg i30 which I am still looking to upgrade. I have learned Roland’s/Korg's simplified fingering and the last thing I want to do now is re-learn chord fingering at this point in my life.

Anyway, I read the Tyros 1 manual and I thought it indicated one of the available chord detection options was the same as Roland/Korg, so I ordered a Tyros. Imagine my surprise when none of the Tyros 1 detection options was the one I am familiar with. So I sent it back for a refund.

What is the problem? Yamaha uses a nonsensical simplified fingering approach that requires the root, plus any white key, or any black key to the left of the root (or some such scheme) to make chords other than roots. Not only does this not make sense musically, but I've already learned the more logical Roland/Korg approach, so I don't want to change. By the way, the Yamaha approach ends up requiring different note intervals to make the same chord, depending on the key signature. The Roland/Korg method always results in the same musical interval for a given chord, regardless of the key.

So why am I bitching? I still have not upgraded because the PA1X has what I believe are some shortcomings (only 2 intros and endings, 2 fills, 62 note poly, etc.) If Yamaha would just consider adding the Roland/Korg simplified detection scheme as one more detection option, I might consider buying a Tyros 2 Yamaha keyboard. Otherwise, I WILL NOT. This scheme could be added to existing keyboards with planned operating system updates. I’m not asking Yamaha to drop its current schemes, just add another option for us simple-minded old farts that don't want to relearn everything.

Oh by the way, I don't want to hear it from you guys about how I should learn to play "real" chords. Ain't gonna happen.

I am not going to do it -- no way

Chuck, only one question –Why not?

This is a sincere question, I want to know the benefits of your chord system as compared to playing full chords with the left hand.

John C.

wouldn t be too hard to learn, especially because using roland/korg scheme, you only have to add one finger to became a three fingers player. it is logical indeed and does not take alot of effort.
still, your point is good!

Why not? Because I'm too old, don't have enough time, and don't want to put that much effort into it.

I play to decompress and for my own enjoyment. Putting in the effort to learn "real" chord fingering wouldn't help me accomplish either.

The Korg & Roland Single finger notation is the best because you are already learning and playing some of the key parts that you would use when playing full fingered chords.

Gentlemen thank you for your input. I agree that fingered chords sound richer and would open up a whole new world of options. But I come from a chord organ background and have no delusions about my musical ability. One of the reasons I bought an arranger and not a performance synth like the Motif, was for its Single Finger Chord facility.

I will further acknowledge that the Roland/Korg approach to simplified chords (where a minor chord is formed by playing the root plus minor 3rd) does make sense musically, and is closer to "full fingering" which benefits the aspiring student. However I submit that the Yamaha/Technics approach of playing the black key to the LEFT of the root is a better fit for the ergonomics of the human hand. (Not that anything about the "52-tooth monster with a bad case of gingivitis" is especially ergonomic!)

For example, to play C-minor in the Roland system, I presume you would play the root with your pinky, and Eb with your middle finger. But most non-musicians do not have the requisite muscular control of these digits. In the Yamaha system, you would play C with your thumb, and Bb with your pointer. This works well ergonomically because these are the fingers we use most of the time. Also, the longer pointer finger has an easy time reaching the shorter black keys. So although not steeped in music theory, it brings the Yamaha arrangers a little closer to the true one-finger chords of my Chord Organ past. Furthermore, it's what I'm used to.

I spent a good part of today experimenting and came up with some workarounds, which I posted in the forum at psrtutorial.com. One of the easiest is to simply lengthen the attack of the LH voice. The false chord is still recognized, but you don't hear it because it doesn't have a chance reach audible volume before it is replaced with the correct, intended chord.

Still I think Yamaha's hair-trigger approach to SFC recognition is crude and I would like to see it addresed in a future OS update. -Ted

P.S. I would also like to hear from the owners of some older Yamaha instruments, to figure out how and when this problem crept in.


[This message has been edited by TedS (edited 06-25-2006).]

Hi Ted:

I just started keyboards about 2002 and started with the psr540 and started out with the 1 finger chords, it worked very good and got me using up to 3 fingers, no problem triggering no weird sounds getting tossed in when changing. I went to the psr9000 shortly after, 1 finger dream machine, only misgivings was you can only do so many chords, but only found one song that you couldn't get all the chords with 3 fingers "girl from Ip" the 9000 pro also fingers the same.

The 9000 got me adding more fingers and now I very seldom do a one finger chord, but I have switched to ty2 which dosn't do one fingering for beans, dosn't even recognise some of the 2 finger chords that the 9000 does, So its time for me to get out of the multiple mode and move on been hesitant because I'm finding it difficult to get a couple of chords with the short split on the keyboard.
about a year ago I started adding a more jazz chord type of fingering and it worked beautiful on the 9000 but having to readjust with th tyros2. I can appreciate yamaha's underlying I'm gonna make you learn to do this right like it or not, by the way they have set up the newer boards,
bottom line I'm guessing the PSR1500,3000 and tyros'es are aimed at doing away with the single finger, or to force you to use more fingers by restricting the number of chords that can be played..

My opinion (or Ramblings lol)

Pose

Ted,

I tried to duplicate your problem and after nearly an hour I was still unable to reproduce the problem you described. I tried the techniques and steps you posted on the PSR Tutorial as well, tried it with the style not playing, and the style playing, and still could not duplcate the problem. I suspect that you are leaving a finger on a wrong key during the chord change process, which would explain the sounds you are hearing. Try the same exercise while lifting all fingers from the keyboard during the chord changes and let us know.

Good Luck,

Gary

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