Hi,

I never heard or saw an organ B3 and B4 I read some members speaking about in this Forum.
Please informe whose organ panel or flute sounds on PSR 2000 are close to that B3/B4 sound in order I can get an idea.

Thanks

Carlos Rodrigues

Hi Rodrigues,
As a seasond Hammond player I'm sad to say that the PSR2000 does not for my liking produce a spot on replication of the true Hammond sound, the true sound is made up of many factors such as..electronic imperfections in the tone generator system, complexed electro-acoustic modulation, tube amplification etc. the 2000 is just too pure and nice, there does not seem to be enough attack on the keystroke, I have a Yamaha S03 Synth and this keyboard does get close but that does not help you with the 2000 so this is the general favoured Hammond drawbar setting(enter it into the Hammond drawbar Sound Creator page on the 2000)... 16'.5-1/3'.8'.4', now add some 2-2/3' Percussion, try mixing the Leslie option's with a bit of Flanger, some deep reverb and that's about the best I can do for you, the Hammond patches on my PSR740 were much better as there seemed to be more effects routing options. No doubt I will have people jumping on me saying I dont know what I'm talking about
...Who cares

Regards
Pasa...

Hi Rodriguez,

Native Instruments sell a SIMULATOR for the B3 organ which they call the B4. You run that software in a computer with a sound card and play it with your PSR via MIDI. You can use the B4 as another voice that way.

The sound of the B4 is quite real and I personally use it and like it a lot. Now they have come up with new preset files which allow the modeling of 'used', 'brand new', etch B3 organs, plus other classic models of other brands.

You can download the demo version at their site. Try this place:
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?home_us

The B4 is very different from a PSR voice. It is more like controlling a remote B3 as you press your PSR keys. It has it's own controls which show on your computer screen.

Pasodoble,

All of those factors that you mention ARE implemented in the B3 simulation of Native Instruments. One advantage is that you can have touch sensitivity by setting. The Leslie simulation is included and adjustable too. Reviewers have stated that it sounds not like a real B3 but like a recording of the B3, which is enough for me.

Hi all,

Rodrigues : Hammond never produced a B4 but Native Instruments named their product 'B4 Organ' (reinventing the tonewheels)
In fact all Hammond tonewheel organs have the same 'sinus' tones. (L-, M-, A-, B- and C-types)
Not even Hammond was able to immitate the original sound with electronic-components as semiconductors.... Integrated Circuits etc.
Some of the 'newer' types are X5, B3000, XB-2 but none of them covers my demands.

Native instruments however created the best 'Tonewheels' replica by a piece if PC- or MAC software.
The Leslie (rotating horns) effect is superb and beats ALL simulators on the market.

I could not believe my ears listening to the B4.
Most keyboards have a poor 'hammond' soundgenerator and I was wondering why Yamaha, Ketron or Roland are not capable to do the same as NI does.

Roel

[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 01-08-2002).]

Roland and Korg both have dedicated organs that are on par with the REAL Hammaond sound.

Hi,

Thanks to everybody for the information about B3 organ.

Carlos Rodrigues

Uncle Dave,
I do know they have dedicated organs but have you seen an Arranger Keyboard with 'tonewheels'sound that can compete with B4 ? ..... I have not !
The Leslie of B4 is not a simple combination of frequency- volume- and phase- (doppler) modulation but all others ARE !
B4 lets you think you are IN the speaker cabinet and the smell of Hammond oil is there again

Roel

I don't think 'anything' comes CLOSE (in sound) to the Native Instruments 'B4' software synth, except 'maybe' the orginal Hammond B3 itself.

My 9kpro is pretty close and given the hands on control - I prefer it in real use situations.

Uncle Dave:
I have only played the PSR9000 and was not impressed by the drawbar sound. Is there a difference in this matter with the 9000PRO?

The hardware[keyboards] allow the "hands on" advantages, but the "sound" compared to the NI B4,not even close[especially Yamaha, come on Uncle Dave]...

I am not familiar with the meaning of 'hands on' advantage, but I control the B4 from the PSR-740 registration buttons. It also responds directly to the foot-pedal volume control. So I don't have to really do anything at the computer screen, except if I want to experiment with it. On one of the presets, in fact, I set an XG voice simultaneous with the B4. That feature alone multiplies voice sounds to the zellions. There are very nice sounds that way buy I settled for just a few. Of course, the auto-accomp from the 740 is being used also. For very little money one gets even better than a B3 (in a way) because it responds to MIDI and to the PSR. Initially I had planned to buy slider controlls like Peavy. Uncle Dave helped me with info. But I settled with the use of the presets. By pushing the preset, all of the parameters selected at the B4 are activated, including amplifier distortions (if you like it), vibratos, etc., you name it. Then for playing it the volume foot pedal IS the expression pedal which I never used fully untill I discovered it is a must for playing the B4. To do that you must create a SILENT voice in the PSR, which was a trick in itself.

I've read some peoples reports that say the GeneralMusic Equinox has a Hammond B3 sound thats pretty nice. I don't know if it qualifies as an arranger keyboard. It does have grooves though so maybe it could be considered a hybrid. It has the drawbars and all. Even supposed to have a spinning speaker Anybody familiar with it??

The 9kpro has modeled organ flutes that are an improvement over the psr series. (even the 9000), and I do believe that it's MORE than close - it's damn good. I do admit there is an advantage to the B4, but not a huge one. If you are already bringing a computer to the gig - then go for it, if not...it may not be the best solution for you. For one - the outputs on MY laptop are kind of noisy. Now, that's ok for an organ sound, but in the rests... it still comes trough.
I love the tone of the B4, I do - but the 9kpro is awesome too.
As to the GEM ....... I better not. I have a low tolerance for their sound - even their high end stuff. My choice - not for everyone.

Hi MBL,

Can you tell me a bit more about how you use the volume pedal to control the organ volume? I currently use my PSR740 together with a Hammond XM-1 midi module for organ sounds. For most rock type situations this is a pretty good combination although I can't get the gentle purr type pad that a real B3 can produce for more subtle stuff (maybe I need a CX-3).

I switch the module in by setting the midi out on R2 then set the PSR mixer to 0 for R2 giving me an empty voice, but meaning I can't do any layering of 2 PSR voices when not using the module (unless I turn it off).

I'm currently using a Yamaha FC-9 pedal with the CV output connected to the PSR volume pedal in and the XM-1 connected through the FC-9s other channel. Your reply seems to indicate that the PSR outputs the volume information to connected modules anyway co that if I set the XM-1 to accept control messages I wouldn't need the double loop.

Any comments?

Pschimmel,
I am by no means an Hammond player, but I remember that once a friend of mine, who owned a real Hammond C3 (a beast, who took one fourth of his living room) told me that, to make the beast "scream" the way Jimmy Smith does, you have to use the volume pedal in a very particular way, kicking it almost all the way down while you "stab" a chord (Jimmy Smith uses 13th chords to do that) and immediately relieving the pressure (it should be a short scream, not a deafening, sustained tone).
You can hear examples of this technique in almost all uptempo Jimmy's tunes (like "The cat"), particularly when he is improvising.

Pschimel,

How to produce a true 'silent voice' from the 740 looked impossible untill Dr. Simon Williams at another forum solved the problem. You can use either the R1 or the R2 voice. For the one you chose, say R1, assign 'Organ Flutes' to it. Then set all the pipes volume down to zero. There is an 'organ flutes' dedicated button that brings one to those settings. Set voice R2 to Off, then save it to a Registration Memory button (say no.1). So when the MIDI data goes out, the PSR is playing but produces no sound locally YET the foot volume 'raises' the volume up and down. Of course the external module will obey the commands. Assign the foot volume control to voice R1 also. To play a mix of a local voice and the external box, use another registration button in which R1 is the external box and R2 is any one of the arrangers boxes, for that both R1 and R2 are On, of course.

The difficult part was that special use of the Organ Flutes with each pipe set at zero volume. I had gone nuts trying the mixers and all other parameters but it wouldn't do it. I also set the volume pedal as Master and get good expression control from the B4.

Of course the only voice you couln't combine with would be Organ Flutes. I liked the B4 combined with the XG sweet alto sax set at a rather low volume. Hope it is clear or gets you started?

Dreamer,

Yes, the B4 simulator can scream too with the expression pedal. That I like a lot. In fact, one of the included presets is called "SCREAMING B4". It sets the tone wheels to an appropiate setting.

Also, at some sites the Hammond B3 settings of several players are available. There's even a site which tells you settings to make it 'talk' and it shows the settings to produce the vowels, but it is not a course, just a brief mention.

But that's too advanced for me.

Pschimel,

-errata-

where it typed "any one of the arrangers boxes" it should read "any one of the arranger voices".

Sorry.

Carlos and all,

Checkout this great Hammond B3 website which will provide you details about the famous Hammond B3 and other organs as well.
It even includes some great video and audio demos.
http://b3world.com/hammond.html http://b3world.com/leslie.html
http://b3world.com/video.html