I had the opportunity to audition the Bose PAS a second time last Sunday (March 14th). A great BIG thanks to Richard Peck, for personally bringing his PAS over 360 miles to let me audition & compare it (with my EV SxA100's) at my gig venue in Avila Beach, California on March 14th.

A couple of hours before my concert start time, I setup my Tyros keyboard along with my EV SxA100 speakers (2 channel stereo) on each side of the keyboard, while Richard concurrently set up his Bose PAS with subwoofer stage left of the keyboard. I initially ran thru a couple of my jazz standard tunes which primarily utilizes a basic jazz combo (drums, bass) while I played live acoustic stereo piano (Live Grand) comping with the left hand and right hand comping and solo/melodic parts. Thru the EV SxA100's, the piano sounded full and alive and drums and bass full bodied and smooth of which I've grown to appreciate with the EVs. I then switched to the Bose PAS going out the Tyros via the L+R mixed to mono output jack. I immediately noticed that the piano not only suddenly sounded thin & brittle (harsh), but that the overall sound now lacked the full bodied smooth sound that I had heard going thru the EVs. Overall, the Bose PAS sounded (to me) pretty good for coming from a single mono speaker ouput. The mid range frequencies have paricularly good clarity (especially for vocals), and the very deep lows (from it's sub woofer) provide good bass omph, but what was critically missing to me (as well as other musical associates who were concurrently auditioning as well) were the mid-lows. Even after Richard tried several different PAS EQ settings, both the harsh and brittle effect of mixing the Yamaha stereo acoustic piano sample to mono, could not be eliminated satisfactorily for my ears or taste, or recover the sorely missed mid low frequencies which I complained about earlier here. I then had Richard play the Tyros stereo 'live grand' piano patch himself, while I stepped into the audience area to audition. When he played the live grand piano lightly & softly, the 'live grand' piano sounded pleasing & natural, but when I asked him to play a little louder, the characteristic thin & brittle Yamaha stereo piano mixed to mono sound suddenly became apparent again. When other mono type sounds were played thru the PAS, they sounded nice (though not amazingly impressive) and filled the room in a pleasing manner, but not nearly as well as going thru my EVs (in stereo) did. My conclusion is that the Bose PAS puts out a pleasing mono output suitable for acoustic solo instrument output (especially vocals or guitar) or general background arranger keyboard for which only mono sampled keyboard voice are utilized, but for an arranger keyboard 'concert performance', where I require an impressive & dynamic sound field to my audience, then going out true stereo is a far better way to go. I can't speak for other brand arranger keyboards, but if you own a Yamaha arranger keyboard and rely on playing the acoustic piano heavily (like I do), I do not recommend the Bose PAS unless you can afford to purchase two of them ($4,000 US dollars total). If the Bose PAS was priced significantly lower, I might recommend it, but its definitely not worth its steep price in my opinion.

As much as I appreciate the benefits of the Bose PAS (quick and convenient setup/breakdown) and respect the views of others who LOVE the Bose PAS, I recommend (with a Yamaha keyboard) to go out stereo to the Motion Sound KP200S/KP100S or thru a pair discrete stereo speaker units for the benefit of a true stereo field which in my opinion offers not only a far more pleasing piano sound (on Yamaha stereo only piano samples) but far better musical depth and detail (to the audience) as well. I agree with Mike (keybplayer) and the Pro (Jim Eshleman) that going out Stereo, with Yamaha keyboards, is pretty much mandatory for an acceptable acoustic piano sound.

Scott

Thanks for this nice review Scott.
As you know I NEED a good stereo image and cannot afford Stereo Boses.
To be honest, Bose never could impress me in home-electronics (cinema) or 'professional' systems. (e.g. no warm, deep low)

I'd better stay with my SRM450's ....

Roel

Thanks for the detailed review of your tests, Scott. It seems it confirms pretty much your first impressions with the PAS. I'm happy with the quality (and power) of my current PA (H&K LUCAS), but I like new concepts and wouldn't say no to a more transportable sound system that at least equals in quality. Contrary to Roel, I like my "acoustic mass" Bose speaker system (at home), but that's my HO, of course.

I stay tuned for improvements of the PAS concept, who knows, by other brands?...

-- José.

As always Let your EARS be your judge

------------------
www.donnypesce.com

What can I say Scott? Ditto! Good review. It's amazing how much of a controversy this issue has created on almost every keyboard forum on the web currently. You can bet that both keyboard manufacturers and sound system designers are checking this issue out big time!

Thanks Scott for the Detailed review, I think for me I will stay
with my pair of Yamaha MS400 speakers for awhile longer.

Oh !!!! & thank you for saving me 4000 bucks.
I was just hoping somebody would fine something wrong
with the Bose PAS.



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Denny Starry
KN5000, 9000 Pro
Enjoying The 9000 Pro

While I'm an an advocate for stereo amplification, I refuse to totally dismiss the Bose PAS concept. I think it's viable if the sound is as good as some say, and the phase cancellation problem is not a fault of Bose but a naturally occuring acoustic phenomena. Bose isn't to blame... and nobody seems to think that two PAS units might not be a bad idea for keyboards. I'd love to run a real-time analyzer on a PAS and get some solid results to compare with other sound systems.

But the cost of two PAS units - yikes! So if you really want to go mono via PAS, here's a phase adjustment tool that runs about $375 reportedly that might solve the phase problem: http://www.littlelabs.com/ibpjr.html

I don't know for sure that the IBP Junior Analog Phase Alignment Tool would work but it seems like a solid idea. This could be useful in the studio anyway. So it may be possible to start with a single PAS unit and a phase adjustment tool and then save for an eventual second PAS unit, if you are Bose-motivated.

Hi Scott and all,

after Scott's Concert Richard was so nice to hook up the Bose again.
I was waiting to be blown away, but I have to agree a 100% with Scott, that the sound was thin and brittle.

I own the SRM450's and I have gotten used to a full clear warm sound, which was lacking in the mono mode.

However, walking around the audotorium, I was very impressed by the sound dispersion that UD was talking about.
the sound was even clear in the next room.

I'll be keeping my Mackies for a while

Eric

Remember, Scott was playing a Tyros ..... that's the reason. Play some comercial audio files through a Bose ..... it's unbelievable.

UD,
Oops..... I don't think Scott is happy with your remarks :
It can be read as :
a. SCOTT was playing the Tyros
b. Scott was playing the TYROS

Which was your intention (a or b ) ?

btw This is the general arranger keyboard forum. Our speakers at least must be able to handle keyboards ! (I try not to be a DJ that plays commercial audio files ;-) )

Hi UD,

as I said I wish I had more time to audition the PAS, to get a more complete picture.

However being a Yamaha player myself, I would run into the same problems as Scott mentioned.



Since I don't use audio files, it doesn't make much difference to me.

But I do want to go down to our local GC one of these days and have a better audition.

Eric

I don't do Karoke with commercial audio files either, so I don't see the values here either when for around $700.00 one can buy the Motion Sound or other stereo amp. Four grand for a pair of these.....I don't think so.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Yes I actually PLAY the Tyros as I believe this to be the principal function of an arranger keyboard.



I rarely (if ever) utlize commercial audio or midi files when I entertain. I'm neither a DJ or a karoake style performer. I prefer to consider myself a 'live' Musician-Vocalist performer FOREMOST, but with enough entertainer skills to provide a well rounded music-entertainment package.

thus:



Roel, I think the best 'emphasis' would have been:

c. Scott was 'PLAYING' the Tyros

Since I actually PLAY the 'live grand' acoustic piano 100% 2 hand & totally 'live', rootless chords & all , I only EXPECT my PA speakers to reproduce the uniquely acoustic piano sounds (harmonic overtones) and nuances that the Yamaha stereo 'live grand' voice offers. When mixed to mono, this is lacking , leaving only the lackluster thin yet harsh (brittle)sound of the fundamental piano voice sample alone.

For a noisy bar room or providing buried in the background music, going stereo may not be so important, but for a 'concert performance venue' with an attentive listening audience, I find the effect of stereo draws my audiences in with realistic impact & intimate involvment. Mono just can't match this . . . period!

Scott

Scott

Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Jim (Pro), I'm pretty certain the Yamaha piano 'stereo to mono' conversion phase problem has nothing to do specifically with the Bose PAS, but that the identical problem occurs when going from a Yamaha keyboard's stereo sampled acoustic piano sound to ANY single 'mono' output speaker. I hear (on the PAS) the identical 'phase cancellation' problem when going from my Tyros to one single EV SxA100 speaker as well.

On the other hand, re the PAS, even if the phase problem were corrected, though I was impressed with the 'overall' PAS sound, especially the clarity of the mid range, the mid 'low' frequencies are strangely lacking, making the low notes sound thumpy (accentuated) yet lacking pitch clarity. I personally find my EV SxA100's to have a smoother natural (unhyped) sounding frequency respond from top to bottom.

I'm intrigued by the possible prospect that the "IBP Junior Analog Phase Alignment Tool" might work in correcting the phase cancellation problem, though $375 sounds a bit pricey. Still, if it actually worked, I'd be willing to fork out the cash so I could send my Tyros' stereo audio output to a single EV SxA100 speaker when desired. Anyone actually tested the IBP Junior Analog Phase Alignment Tool out? I'd really appreciate hearing feedback from people who've actually tested this out in correcting Yamaha keyboard stereo sound output to a single mono speaker. If it works, then this could be the unit we've been looking for.

Scott

I just had a chance to read Scott’s post and would like to add my thoughts to the mix.

As I mentioned in my earlier post it was interesting to me to see how others use their keyboards. Scott performance was confined to a piano bar style. All his songs were piano oriented and his songs included vocals. Because of this he didn't use a wide variety of instruments. While he did use some instruments besides piano it's understandable that the piano sound was the focus of his performance.

As to a fair trial of the system we had two problems. The first I don't think we used the available time to really explore the options, and second my lack of familiarity with the new system. The room where Scott performed was very poor acoustically having hard floors, walls, and very little to keep sounds from bouncing all around. The group was very small so it didn't have the sound absorbing qualities of a large group. Although this was an organ club meeting no organ music was played.

Due to the poor acoustics of the room and his set up Scott found it necessary to make system adjustments before his second set to make his vocals intelligible. In my judgment it was definitely not an ideal performance setting in which to make meaningful comparisons.

Subsequent to our trial I learned more about the PAS presets and found that we never tried the "flat' reference setting. Had we done so we might have had more success.

Thanks to posts by other SynthZone members much additional information is becoming available on the PAS system. I've collected some of it and will forward my limited findings to anyone interested.

While much is made of the stereo aspect of a performance expecting a piano to sound better in stereo is much like expecting Luciano Pavorotti to sound better in stereo. In both cases the quality of the sound is dependent on the quality of the instrument.

To summarize my view of what Scott posted as a comparative review of two different systems I would say the following.

The only one who can determine whether a particular system is right for you, is you. Try the various systems to see what works best for you. The system you'll select should be based on your ear, your style of playing, your expectations, and your application. Don’t make a decision based on what someone else recommends.

Have a great day!

RP

Richard, the issue 'isn't' about whether a keyboard's piano sample sounds better in stereo, but instead, the mere fact that stereo keyboard samples sent out to a single mono ouput suffer from an audio phenonomon called 'phase cancellation', of which detrimentally alters the quality of the sound ouput. This problem is not specific to the Bose PAS or Yamaha keyboards, but a universal problem that occurs whenever attempting to mix down a stereo keyboard sample to 'any' single mono output speaker.

Richard, though I'll admit that the room acoustics was rather live, the ability to make a direct 'back & forth' A/B comparison between the EV SxA100's and the Bose PAS made it easy for me to immediately hear the distinct difference in sound between these PA systems. I immediately noticed that the acoustic piano voice had much more depth, clarity, and open-ness (transparency) when played thru the SxA100's. Thru the Bose PAS, the piano sounded thin, and missing the smooth depth, richness & open transparency that I experienced through the EVs. Though perhaps experimenting with other EQ settings on the PAS may result in some improvement in offsetting what is the obvious result of phase cancellation, I really doubt that this could actually solve the problem. I suspect the only thing that might be able to accomplish this is the $375 device that Jim Eshleman (the Pro) mentioned earlier on this thread.

Richard, I really appreciate & thank you for everything you've done to make it possible for me to have auditioned your Bose PAS system alongside my EV SxA100 system. I also realize that comparing a mono setup with a stereo setup configuration may not be the best comparison scenerio, but it should also be noted that a 'single' Bose PAS unit is substantially (more than twice) as expensive than even 'two' EV SxA100 PA speakers. Richard, in conclusion, I concur with your statement that "the only one who can determine whether a particular system is right for you, is you". I realize that everyone's music production & performance style, budget, and PA needs differ, so I'm sure the Bose PAS will be an idea choice for many people out there, but just not for me, at least not currently.

Scott

At least not until Cliff at Bose (the guy who created the PAS) figures out how to eliminate "phase cancellation" when using Stereo Samples on a Keyboard through the PAS.

That would truly be a feather in his cap if he or anybody else could do it. Nobody since Stereo hit the scene has been able to do so thus far.

I wouldn't put it beyond the scope of doable. It's just that the technology to do it hasn't been discovered yet. But that's not to say it won't be discovered.

In the mean time, if you want to use a single PAS system just make sure you use Mono Piano Samples and no other Stereo sampled instruments on the Keyboard. Either that; or be like UD and don't be a connoisseur of good rich full bodied sound but just settle for less than what could "and should" be. In other words, just settle for weak, thin, tinny, brittle, harsh, non-acoustical, clanging, boisterous, clunking, un-natural, un-lifelike sound.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-20-2004).]