Do bands really like/want Arranger keyboard players...
'Oh and can you turn off the click drums; that too perfect bass; and most of that rhythm support cos it's getting in the way of what I'm playing...'
What do bands really want from a keyboard player? apart from not getting in their way...

In a concert at TV some time ago I could see Leonard Cohen play a Technics KN as accompagniment when the band was off the scene for a break. That was really cool.

I can't see that is a problem to use the keyboard itself, but if you're playing in a band where there is live drums and bass etc., what should you use the Autocomp for unless you're performing "playback" and fake live playing that we see too many does nowadays?
Maybe as metronome to keep the beat steady...
GJ

GJ makes a great point about timing. Many years ago, when I played lead guitar with a 5 piece country band, I was amazed at how bad their timing was. It was nothing short of abysmal and constantly changed, going up and down like a roller-coaster. Once in a while, some of us get together, however, the drummer and bass player have long sinced passed away.

They still cannot keep time, especially with the keyboard's perfect timing. After a few hours the reason behind this became quite clear--no one other than myself was listening to the tempo. They would just go off on a tangent, doing their own thing, and when they finished they were usually a half beat off.

However, good musicians, those that have trained themselves to keep time and count, do not have this problem. I have had the privilege and honor to know musicians that have performed with the best big bands. They were superb, their timimg was impecible, yet they had an incredible style that was injected by each player.

So, in answer to the orriginal question, I sincerely believe a good keyboard player can be an assett to any band. However, the band must also be an assett to the keyboard player.

Cheers,

Gary

Aah but then Gunnar if you turn off the autocomp (APC) it's no longer an Arranger Keyboard with the accent on Arranger...
And it's yet another thing again to use a sequenced or pre-recorded approach or to take it a step further and use a midi file - that really is faking it in terms of live playing - oops that'll set a few heckles rising!
Turn off the APC and correct me if I'm wrong but you've got an organ or a piano basically - is that want bands want?
Rog

I think for an arranger keyboard is too much instrument for a live band. I had played in the past with the real band, and that did not go too well. One day the drummer could not make it to the rehearasal, and they asked me to turn on the drums of my arranger - it was keeping perfect timing, with perfect levels, and I could adjust the volume not too loud. Another time the guitarist could not figure out his part, so I played it with the perfect guitar sound a few times, while hitting the right notes. After a few incidents like this, everyone hated me as their competition. We had performed a few times, but then went our separate ways.

It is good to be able to play by yourself - you do not depend on other musicians, and your backup band is always ready to accompany you. With the decent selection of styles you do not feel constrained by the lack of skill or technique or musical talent by the band members. It is the ultimate in convenience and instant gratification to play a single with an arranger.

However, all of those considerations aside, playing with the band is more fun. The variability which is inherent in having individual live musicians play various instrument parts in a band is something that is missing from the canned accompaniment in an arranger. I would suggest that the next improvement the arrangers can introduce is the controlled variability of style parts - allow the users to control the variation in the rhythm (for drums, bass, and other accompaniment tracks, either together or as a group which typically follows the rhythm). Long time ago Yamaha had something similar - groove and dynamics - controllable at real time. However, they later relegated it to style programming tools, which are not handily available in real time. Another suggestion for an improvement: allow an audio input which will detect the rhythm of the external drum track (e.g. a live drummer), and have the accompaniment slaved to it. This would help inegrate real drums into the arranger setup and introduce the variablity which is afforded by a live band into arranger setups. It would also offer a visual advantage - most of the time the audience will look at whether there is a drummer playing or not to decide if they are seeing a live or a pre-recorded act (I have to work hard to convince my audiences that I am actually playing live in front of them, rather than jockeying midi/MP3 files).

The other thing is when you play with other musicians, there is a sense of synergy, when your playing actually comes together. The interplay between different players' parts produces the result which can not be achieved by one guy playing a keyboard with one pair of hands. The convergence of sound from multiple parts is something which is the arranger musician will never have to deal with (nor enjoy).

I used to perform (and still do sometimes) with a trumpet player, or one or two other instrumental soloists - they have the skill to keep up with the arranger accompaniment tracks. It was not always perfect, but this was truly ejoyable live-play experience form me (and for the audiences, judging by their reception). Although this requires more practice work and coordination than just playing a single, to me this is a great way to produce a live sound with an arranger accompaniment.

Regards,
Alex

After I wrote the post above, I noticed some new posts which appeared in the time I typed it up. I second Gary's point, that whenever an any soloist, instrumental or vocal, is performing with the arranger, the greatest shortcoming of such a setup is that everyone must follow the arranger beat. Many musicians are not used to this, especially vocalists. It can be cured by practice, but this is one difficulty I have accompanying "guest vocalists" on stage - I usually will switch to piano only, no arranger or drums at all, to do this.

An arranger player does not have the means to control the tempo finely - with my hands on the keyboard, I would need a third hand (or a foot) to keep on tempo controls. Perhaps another way to control it would be to allow slaving the arranger tempo to, say, the left hand chord speed - another suggestion for improvement in new arrangers . This may require a slight change in the player's technique, but with the player listening to the singer, he could then then control the accompaniment.

Having played in 10 piece showbands, to 5 piece lounge bands to 3 piece trios to solo entertainer, I can attest that it's all a lot of fun, but each scenario presents it's own set of problems. Besides the normal "drug problems, girl problems and personality problems", bands in general perfectly demonstrate that it is not possible to bring the least skilled member up to the level of the others. The band will always sink to the lowest common denominator. Some kind of law of human nature at work there, but I do not have a name for it. I have just witnessed it countless times.

Re arranger keyboards, I have found that most musicians are very intimidated by these instruments and seem to feel it is not "real music". I also know that I played professionally for many years and that the only way I was ever able to make a dependable living out of performing music was completely alone. Again most (band) musicians I have met are extremely intimidated by someone that can with confort, grace and style, demand and maintain an audiences' attention.

Sorry if I am ot and I will be glad to remove post if anyone is offended.

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-20-2005).]

Danny,
In my opinion you are exactly right.
DonM

I've been playing solo with an arranger and with sequences for a solid four years now. That means I've had four consecutive years with no excuses for bad music. No tempo problems, no overplaying by the guitarists, no egos to stroke, no problems with the band drinking or showing up late or getting bored or finally meeting the girl of their dreams who doesn't want them to play anymore right when you need them the most... how many reasons can YOU name why musicians can't or won't do their job?

I'll tell you the very best thing about having an arranger keyboard on stage with a band... it makes the band acutely aware that they can either be replaced or you can leave whenever you want and gig without them (and possibly in place of them). Were it not for that threat their overconfidence would mean they would hold your living at risk constantly, and they know it... they even flaunt it. And yeah, the fact that I've developed near-perfect timing also makes them aware that they'd better be on their toes if they don't want to look like rank amateurs. Musos may view arranger users as a threat - but is it because they think some robot will take their jobs, or is it because they secretly think their own flaws will become more apparent if they play next to you?

And BTW: I keep seeing these jabs at people who use sequences - some here and definitely more on other keyboard-related forums. Today's jab is from "Rog" who equates sequencing to "faking it". I guess he's joking but frankly I don't care if this is meant to be funny or not - it's really rubs me the wrong way to see keyboardists, of all people, putting down sequence users. I see no difference between using an arranger, where each measure is sequenced and you just switch between short sequences at will, or using an entire pre-sequenced song. Some of us work hard to develop our midi files, which is an artform in and of itself. Actually being able to entertain while using sequences is another unique talent... it takes balls to walk onto a big empty stage in front of a room full of people with nothing but a keyboard and some sequences, and something more to pull the gig off that way. Not one of my employers has ever implied that I am faking anything by using sequences or an arranger keyboard, so why are keyboard players doing it?

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 03-20-2005).]

"What do bands really want from a keyboard player?"

LOL someone that melds with the music thats there and enhances it. Someone that adds dynamics...and on and on. I think the potential role of a keyboard player in a full band has been demonstrated millions of times. Not really some big mystery.

"It is good to be able to play by yourself - you do not depend on other musicians"

Yeah you just depend on prefab styles, midi, and a device

"I would suggest that the next improvement the arrangers can introduce is the controlled variability of style parts "

Why not just sequence your own backing tracks from scratch, seems like that would solve the "in the can" issue...unless your the type that waits for Yamaha ( or others ) to make more "in the can" styles with some form of calculated diversity.

"they have the skill to keep up with the arranger accompaniment tracks."

Sorry...its not a matter of skill, any musician worth half his salt can run circles around auto accompaniment. If the musician is familiar with the song has a good ear for improv and on and on.