After "lurking" for 2 weeks I am very impressed with the knowledge exibited of this forum. This is my first post... and it regards a subject which is probably boring to most of you, since it appears that you all have already made the module/keyboard decision (since this a keyboard forum). Never-the-less, I come here seeking your help.

Other than requiring an out-board device and a midi cable, are there any disadvantages in going the module route? I currently have the Roland XP-80, which has excellent touch, 76 keys, and very good piano and organ voices with the expansion boards. I use a Rotosphere for Leslie simulation (just obtained and sounds great) and have a Digitech Vocalist Workstation.

I've considered the Roland RAs or the Keytron X4, depending on budget. Are there any problems going with a module... enough to outweigh the advantages, in my situation? I'm sure there are things I've either overlooked or are unaware of. Thanks for your help!

Glenn

Hi Glen: I can only speak for myself, but after owning and playing a Roland RA-800 (G-800 module equivilent), I will never go the module route again. Arranger keyboard playing requires quick access to all the arranger buttons. With a module it's just not possible to situate the module & its associated arranger buttons close enough to the keyboard controler to perform effectively. Just my opinion of course. - Scott

Well, a module will of course require a careful placement otherwise, like Scott wrote, it will be difficult to quickly access all its buttons (with an arranger you have to be fast to press the right button, or the result will be disappointing, especially if you perform in public). On the other hand, if you already have a good keyboard and are satisfied with it, a module is a sensible choice. I think that right now the only ones worth a try are the Ketrons (X4 or the new XD9), but maybe I am wrong. I have tried the X4 (thanks to Paul Curzan ) and was satisfied with it. By the way, both Paul and Eric are very soon going to try the XD9 at George Kaye's store, so maybe they will be able to give us their opinion too.
Andrea

hi Glen,
Well, I'm definately only voicing my opinion here. Firstly I certainly agree with both Scott and Andrea's coments. For me, I was at your decision cross-roads 18 months ago. My thoughts then were for a Roland A90x pluss piano card and various outboard modules. My concerns were that there was a lot of work required to produce basic songs and arrangements, too many external plugins (would they all work as they were supposed to, when they were supposed to)and how to transport all of the gear to gigs (the A90 is a mean machine to lug around) and the extended setup time once at a gig. So deciding against that combo I was courted by a Roland XP-80 (wow ! what a machine!)However although easier to transport than the A90, and it certainly had more tools for producing the goods than the A90, I decided against it because of the addtional bolt on modules I would need, and again the element of uncertainty - would it all work when it was supposed to (in the heat of battle on a gig) So, I settled on the arranger keyboard concept and have never looked back. If all my work revolved around a studio, then my choice would have been different - perhaps a more modular approach. Maybe a Roland A90 and an XP-80 plus.... I dream on.
Today, my Yamaha 9000PRO suits my needs without a complaint, or a sigh or a wish.
Hope this helps,
Jon.

Glenn,

I will tell you about my personal experience. As a follower of the Controller+Module route, and unlike Scott or Andrea, I never felt the disadvantage that both mention. Maybe I was lucky in finding the right placement for the module, despite my lack of experience. I have tried the one piece solution (a G1000) and currently own a Kurzweil SP76 controller+X4 module. I see no difference as far as the distance to the buttons is concerned. But it is possible that the fact that I don't "feel" the difference is due to my "less demanding" playing style (less frequent access to the buttons).

My main reason for going the module route is that I don't like the key feel of the majority of the arrangers. Another reason is that I prefer at least 76 keys, and there are a lot of arrangers with only 60 keys. When I bought my X4 I tested the keyboard version, the X1, and hated the feel of the keys. But maybe the situation will change in a near future, as manufacturers seem to be building better keys in their high-end models (in the newer Ketron models, for example, SD1 and XD9 have a better - very acceptable - key feel). By the way, I had the opportunity to test the new XD9 (I will tell you about it in a separated post). My impression is that the key feel is the same as the SD1.

-- José.

Hi Glen,

I am with Jose on this one. I wanted to purchase Ketron X1, but didn't care too much for the 61 Key or the action on it. Luckily, I own a Roland A70 so I recently purchased Ketron X4 module. I couldn't be more happy. Ofcourse, as others pointed out, the placement of the two intstruments is vital. I have a two tier stand and both machines sit perfectly on it.

Now I have a 76 key great action of Roland along with exceptional sounds and programming of X4. To me, it's a match made in heavens.

I would like to clarify my point of view: when I was in Santa Barbara I spoke with Eric and he asked me how I liked my SD1. I replied that it was great but, having a 9000 pro already, he really didn't need another 76 notes keyboard. So the new XD9 could be the perfect solution for him, especially because he was looking just for new, more exciting styles and did not care much for all the sounds found inside the SD1.
The same goes for me: I like the 9000 pro for its sounds, and would be more than happy to find those sounds inside a module. In this way I would save also a lot of money. Right now, my only option would be spending all the money required for a 9000 pro without a real need for its styles or another 76 notes kb (that takes up a lot of space too).
Regarding the accessibility issue, I went to the point that I didn't place my two keyboards on a rack because this way the upper one would be less accessible and the lower one would have some of its features (buttons, even display) masked by the upper one.
I think that being able to access all the buttons and the display in real time without much effort is very important, otherwise you will never be able to really understand all the possibilities of your instrument. Of course, it's always possibile to find a good solution to lodge a module in an accessible way, maybe at a right angle with your keyboard, but I agree with Scott that when you play in public it becomes difficult to press the right buttons in time; you can always trigger your fills with a pedal, but how do you select the right instrument at the right moment? Sending a midi program change maybe? Hmmmmm......

For me, arranger button proximity (directly behind the keys), button layout (across the length of the keys), and Module LCD screen position (up front center) is paramont. It seems no matter where I positioned the Roland RA-800 module next to my keyboard controler (either Roland A33 or Fatar 1176), it never was close enough, as module & keyboard controler are both enclosed (surrounded) in their own separate casing along with their own buttons, creating an inconvenient barrier.

In concept, I like the module approach, but in application, it's never worked very well for me.

Is there a keyboard controler out there which has minimual real estate (less than 2 ") behind the keys (no buttons/controls in that area), and no jacks or connectors positioned at the center portion of the KB's rear? This would allow a module to sit right up againest the back (center) of the KB controller, providing improved access to the module's buttons & LCD screen.

Arranger module owners! Please share with us exactly WHERE you position your module in relationship to your keyboard controler. Please don't forget to list the brand/model arranger module & keyboard controler used.

Thanks, - Scott

i used the korg i5m module with a roland
a30 controller in a A frame two tier set up.
i now use just one keyboard Korg i5s. each has its own advantage. if you use a module
fiqure which hand to use to change settings
on the module. i use to place it on my left
but with the chord holding feature i ended up placing
it centered above the controller. with
the controller module setup, you get the benifits of a great keyboard feel plus
(my opinion) more flexablity. the down side is that you have more cables to hook up other than that its a matter of personal preference. hope this helps.

Scott,

I think it will be difficult to find such an ideal controller with lesse than 2' behind the keys and with no connections or buttons in the central area. This is specially hard with weighted key controllers, that usually need some distance behind the keys in order to simulate the hammer mechanism.

What I do is to reduce as much as I can the vertical distance between the two "floors" in my two tier stand (I loose the access to the controller buttons, but it doesn't matter to me, since I do all the performance control on the module). And the bottom border of the modules stays very close to the keys. This means that viewed from the side, both "boxes" overlap in a distance which is actually the distance behind the keys on the controller. I can also add an inclination (relative to the horizontal) in the upper platform to ease things. Clear enough, even with my limited english?

I will try to post a picture later in the week; it will speak for itself much better than I can do with words...

-- José.

I really appreciate the shared experiences related to my module/keyboard dilema. This afternoon I spent several hours learning the keyboards at Sam Ashe Music. "Learning", because no one there knew the first thing about the boards, so it was "do it yourself".

Many impressions... first, those guitars on the PSR2000 are really cool! Guitars are not easy to emulate on a keyboard. Second, lots of button pushing! I can see, as some of you pointed out, that close proximity (to those buttons) is critical. Using a pedal for fills and variations makes sense... except for the fact that foot pedals need to be controling so many other things - sustain, volume, Vocalist, Rotosphere (leslie simulator). Hmmmmm, busy foot, any thoughts?

Probably my biggest frustration is not being able to locate a Ketron board or module around here. After reading so many positive comments on this forum about their "live-like" sounds, I'd really like to hear one live. I called Ketron and they led me to a dealer who has none. Anyone know of anything in my area (Northern Ohio), let me know.

Glenn


[This message has been edited by Glenn01 (edited 07-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Glenn01 (edited 07-30-2002).]

José (matias):
MANY thanks in advance. As confucious say: "A picture is worth a thousand words". How's that for your fortune cookie of the day? - Scott

(I didn't know that Confucious worked for Polaroid...)

Sounds good... but what's an flr2002?

Glenn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On my flr2002 arranger system I have two choices. I can use a computer keyboard to control everything. Alternatively, I can program the lower octave or more to do most things such as fills, variations, endings, etc. This is the alternative I use most often. When I want to use the full range of the controller keyboard (e.g., playing organ, etc.) I will use either the computer keyboard or my Roland PK5 Midi Bass pedals to operate the arrnager functions. It's a breeze and works well.
I change voices using the the Roland A37 Controller program buttons.

So you can see anything is possible.

Frank L. Rosenthal

From Confucious, and sponsored by Polaroid...




Scott, tell if the pictures aren't clear enough.

-- José.

Oh my God, pictures are so big!... Sorry, it's my first time posting pictures!

Another one...



[This message has been edited by matias (edited 07-30-2002).]

José,
Indeed, your 3 pictures are well worth 'over' three thousand words. With your setup, I can now clearly see that the arranger buttons & screen are within reasonable reach from the keyboard.
btw: Is that a Quick-lok double tiered stand? Model number? MANY thanks, - Scott

Hi, Scott.

The only down side of this setup is that all the control has to be done in the module only. If I want to use the buttons of the controller I can always slightly increase the distance between both platforms, with a slight loss of performance efficiency (actually negligible for my performance level).

Yes, it's a Quiklok double tier stand. Model Number: QL-641. You can find it here:
http://www.quiklok.com/search_list.taf?_function=detail&Layout_0_uid1=29

Maybe you will reconsider the module route in the future?

-- José.

Scott,
Since I know you are very curious, the two strips on the left side hiding the name of the brand (Kurzweil) are velcro white strips, which I use to fixate my feedback destroyer (Behringer Shark). Once again, this velcro solution, I got it from you guys . BTW, I recently upgraded my vocal setup. I exchanged my Shure Beta 58a (Dynamic) for a Shure Beta 87a. I couldn't be happier with my upgrade, 87a is a terrific vocal mic!

-- José.