Hi
When someone arrives to buy an arranger, usually compares sounds, possibilities of kb, O.S., feeling, price, etc. but usually doesn’t give a great importance to "styles" (not only styles built into kb, but styles the manufacturer have in other kbs too).

But I think that is a important thing to consider. Because if someone doesn't like styles made by its kb manufacturer, he will have a difficult life with kb. To buy a kb without to consider if this person likes its styles isn’t a good decision. This person may think: ”well, I don't like them, but I like this kb sounds, and I will have converted styles from brands I like its styles; so, no problem”. But to have very good converted styles is not easy. And, at the end, a converted style don't sound as original.

So, I think is very important to consider what class of styles someone want. Yamaha styles? Roland ones? Korg?...

Sometimes, a reason for to buy a kb is that there are more styles in the net for it. But this 'quantity argument' is not an argument today. Now, it is easy to have all Roland kbs styles from the net, and a lot of conversions too. The same, and a lot more, with Yamahas. Technics let all KNs styles (near 1.000 styles) for free download. New Korgs let you use old Korg styles, and there are a lot of conversions too.

So, quantity is not the problem today. Quality remains.

Although all brands are going to have more similar styles today than ten years ago, I think some differences remain.

So, my question is:

What are the differences between Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Technics styles? I say differences about quality, richness, varied instrumentation, feeling, pleasure using them, inspiration to compose, better type of music for (rock, bigband, ballad, newage,…?). Which are more canned, or less boring, or richer, or sweeter...?

I would like very very much to know your sincere opinions about it.

Thanks.
Tracknet

It is a very interesting topic, Tracknet. And not much usual here.

I can't give a honest opinion, because I don't know different brand styles too much.
I only may say that (for my ears) Yamaha styles are the more usable ones, but not specially inspiring (too much simple ones).

Perhaps Synthzone members which know well different brands, or have a keyboard store, may give an opinion: Fran Carango, George Kaye, Dreamer, Dan, Don Mason...

I would like to read their opinions about this interesting topic.

They are mostly all good, I see you left out Ketron....it all about how you play them, edit them, tweak them, use other manufactureres converted styles in your kb, etc etc ...there is NO definitive answer here....this will lead to another "My Kb is better then Your Kb"..Save yourself some grief... go to the stores & listen, play and make your own decisions about them IMO



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-09-2004).]

Donny
100% agreement here. Sounmd advice.....pun intended.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 03-09-2004).]

How I see the topic of styles.

1-Get to know the styles in the keyboard you own.
2-Discover the different ways you can alter them. A-Changing volumes
B-Changing the instruments/drum sets
C-Simplify the style

If you have the time and desire you can learn how to change a bass line, or vari the volumes of the different bass notes, or select a different bass.

The same for the drums
The same for the other instruments

What am I saying? Simply, be creative, use your imagination. If it does not sound right when you're done with the changes, try again.
Here lies the enjoyment of your keyboard, you are limited only by your imagination.


My first try was with the song The Electric Slide. There wasn't a style in my keyboard that fit that song. But there were a few that were close. After making my chnages what I ended up with was acceptable. My knowledge of creating styles has improved since my first try, now the styles I create are more than acceptable.

I find it more work to go through the hundreds of styles I've downloaded than creating a new one. And the bottom line,
it's my creation. (Or improvement on the factory style). Either way, it's me.

This is not for everybody, only those who love to experiment, to create.

Now that's a bit away from the original topic, but I feel you buy what sounds best to you, then learn and create, Your answer is not in other's opinions, but in you and what you hear and feel

I tried, John C.

So, quantity is not the problem today. Quality remains.

Although all brands are going to have more similar styles today than ten years ago, I think some differences remain.

So, my question is:

What are the differences between Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Technics styles? I say differences about quality, richness, varied instrumentation, feeling, pleasure using them, inspiration to compose, better type of music for (rock, bigband, ballad, newage,…?). Which are more canned, or less boring, or richer, or sweeter...?

I would like very very much to know your sincere opinions about it.

Thanks.
Tracknet[/B][/QUOTE]


As a future ex-Technics sales manager in Canada, my job was amongst others, to test and play competitors models. In my opinion, Ketron has the best overall styles on the market. The overall quality is the most consistent and natural. If I had to pick one arranger and play it live using the internal styles, it'd be a Ketron. I would not even consider modifying what's in there.
We HAD in the past few years, in order to promote the new KN flagship models, to have styles programmed by one of the musicians who was on the Technics programming team, in order to cope for some of Technics weaknesses in the styles department. With these patterns, high-end KN's were a real success in our area.
You are right about the styles being probably the most important aspect of an arranger keyboard. If you want sounds only, buy a synth or a module.
You are also right about the quantity of NC styles available, but with a very low quality.

Hope that my comments help.

Thanks for your comments.

But, which are "NC styles"?

And, what is your opinion about Roland and Yamaha styles?

NC: Styles that you get for free (No Charge).

Roland vs Yamaha styles: I.M.O Yamaha is the manufacturer that has improved their styles the most over the last few years. For some reason, Roland that once had the best styles (some will remember the E70 days) has lost ground, especially since their kbds production moved from Japan to Italy some years ago.

Amazing... Ketron is produced in Italy too and yet their development team produces the 'best' styles according to you.

Roland apparently doesn't have the quality programmers that Ketron does even though they're both located in the same Country and possibly the same city. Go figure.

And Roland hasn't offered a high end Arranger since the VA-76 came out several (3) years ago. The recently released low end EXR-3 and 5 is the best they can do for now. Maybe they've given up on the high end Arranger market altogether seeing that the VA-76 was such a sales flop for them. Too bad because competition or lack thereof is what makes or breaks the consumer.

Best regards,
Mike

Good point about Italy. But the country of origin doesn't mean much. What matters is the people behind the product, whatever the country.
Ketron comes from Italy
Roland arranger kbds come from Italy
General Music is an Italian company
Korg PA series (PA80/60) come from Italy. Not sure about the PA1X. The PA50 is assembled in China...

Good point about Roland: nothing much new from them on the arranger side, BUT... I have been told at the NAMM Show that Roland is building its own plant in China, and that many future very good products that should have been built in Europe have been delayed, in order to get lower manufacturing costs/selling prices txs to their future Chinese production.

Mike, I am totally neutral about products. .

All I'm passing is my personal opinion, combined with extensive knowledge of manufacturers / products.

Know what? True IMO that Ketron has the best styles, but also very true that their products ergonomy is probably the worst on the market. Takes a while to find your way with knobs and OS. But there's one sure thing: the way the product is distributed in North America doesn't match Ketron's overall musical quality.

Guess that it'd be fun to have the top contenders (not only the better known brands) side by side for styles comparisons, and as far as I know on this forum, DanO and George Kaye can address this test, since they seem to carry many brands.

Regards,

Free Agent

Just FYI: Roland styles have always been programmed by an italian team, since the days of the E20. I remember that at that time Roland rep. here in Italy used to boast: "We have the best of two worlds: japanese technology and italian creativity".

Hi Dreamer,

Could be. One sure thing in those days, Roland patterns were the reference, and today, they're not. The absence of a new flagship model from Roland is something that really amazes me, considering the size and reputation of the company. And their last attempt (VA series) was disappointing.
But it seems, coming from a Roland rep at the last NAMM Show, that many very good products are ready to be manufactured
in their future Chinese factory. Good news, competition is always good.

Interestingly enough...
no-one has brought up Korg styles ???

IMHO - and I'm not in the business, but I DO research a great deal...BEFORE I buy, and I found the Korg styles to be better put together over all. That's why I bought a PA80 at the time. (and yes the PA1X is Italian too !)

That's not to say that the other major arranger vendors don't have good styles - they do. That's not an issue and I'm not saying this to extend the "mine is better than yours" debate... but factoring in the entire set of factory styles that arrive with a new arranger, I found Korg's to be the best. Period !

I will happily admit that Korg has some crappy styles too, but then so does everyone else. I will not however, rush out and plunk down for a PA1X because of it's styles or it's "sounds". I will NEVER spend for a PA1X because of some outstanding issues I have with Korg Italy (but that's another story).

In all sincerity - I agree with Donny - you got to try them yourself. With the huge aray of styles one gets on an arranger, most are good. One simply has to find the arranger that YOU think have the best styles that fit what YOU need to play. I personally have ne need of "Hollywood" or "Big Band" or "Ragtime" type styles, but you may !

It doesn't matter anyway. Whatever you buy is OBSELETE when you buy it. It WILL be superceeded as soon as they can bring out a 'newer' model. It's ALL marketing. They are in the business of making money first, you happy second. First the Tyros was hailed as breathing 'life' into the arranger market - now go read some of the posts here from people that own it. Then along came the PA1X - again, a breath of fresh air into the arranger market [has ALL you could ever need on an arranger]. Oh, I'm sure the stlyes are great -as were those on the Tyros - but the PA1X is VASTLY overpriced, half-finished (the current OS does NOT support half the features the unit is supposed to have) and it's made by Korg Italy. 'Nuf said.

Tracknet... go play 'em ALL !! make your own decision....
Regards,
Steve

Have Any one of you guys heard or used the styles on the Kawai ACR 20...(much outdated) Really Good !!

I have the module that I do not use anymore but I want to take the styles out... any suggestions ? Also I'd Like to share them all b'coz they are really good. I dont want to go through the trouble of redoing all 120 styles on the Y2100 manually. Please find out if the styles can be copied to a disc and converted ?

Michael

Hi Steve,

Believe me, I don't wanna start any debate on "mine is better than yours". And your advice on playing them all is perfectly accurate, which I also did in a previous post.
Korg styles are very good. But just for fun, try this on a Korg PA arranger. Pick a pattern where you'll find a strings pad on one of the APC parts. Play a basic C chord C-E-G. What you'll hear will be the strings playing C-E-G. Now play an F chord F-A-C, and you'll hear the strings playing F-A-C, when in fact, any "orchestra" would go to the closest interval C-F-A, and not "jump" to F-A-C. In most cases, any musician will try to play the closest interval, to allow smooth musical chords transitions. This is what Ketron products do. Even when you play basic chords, the phrasing is what it should be, and this is why I was talking about their styles being natural.
Another example: I tried a PA80 a few weeks ago. Intros and endings are the same whenever you play a major or minor chord. (Of course, the PA recognizes the mode difference). But on a Ketron, the intros and endings are completely different musically, whenever you play a major and minor chord, which adds more variety to the very same pattern.

Regards,

Free Agent

Hi,
I've always wondered whether a singer requires a fuller ( more complex type of style (I'm not a singer) as opposed to a player who uses an arranger to play melody and backing.

I've had many arrangers over the years. Personally ( for my taste in music( latin , bigband etc rather than more modern stuff like rock , pop etc) I used to find some of the Korg & Roland styles over orchestrated for playing along to, wheras, I would imagine, if I'd been singing along to the style rather than playing along, they would have been wonderful.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that you have to identify what type of music you prefer to play, and whether you sing or mainly play. Each keyboard has it's pluses and minuses when it comes to styles, some sound great for the more modern stuff, others are better for jazz, latin etc.
Some people find Yamaha styles too simplistic whereas I never had a problem trying to find a style to go with a song on my 9000 pro, I couldn't say the same for my korg or roland keyboards.

best wishes
Rikki