I could not figure out what I was waiting for, so I bought Jammer Live. Hooking up a music keyboard to my computer is going to take some rearranging. However, you can actually play accompaniment style from a computer keyboard and pointing device. The 25 styles that come with the program are good, but of course I want more. Tools are provided for making user styles.

Knowing me, Gigasample is probably not too far in the future. Then integrating vocal harmony with the styles. :-)

Way to go Cliff! Mine has got to cross the Atlantic. I suppose that before you know it we'll have some exchange forum for JLive styles. I'm still waiting for the first reports on the Conexant GM500 library, which has its own player, so I don't even know if you need the GS to have it working with JLive!(http://www.northernsounds.com/cgibin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro)

Clif:

Tne number of available styles seems to be a great limitation unless the style making tools are very powerful.

Would you share your experience with the latter?

Michael

elle

Jammer Live is available (only) by download. It should not matter what side of the Altantic you are on. Well, maybe payment is a problem?

Anyway, I look forward to the JammerLiveStyleExchange forum.

Oh, look, I finally made "member".

I wish it was, Cliff. I wish it was.

Dear Michael

The shortage of styles is a "short-term" problem. The styles that are available are more flexible than hardware styles. For example, they support probabilistic selection of riffs, so they are less monotonous.

In addition, Jammer Live makes it easy to mix parts of different styles. Yamaha lets you make a new style that mixes parts from different styles. But Jammer makes this much easier--it qualifies as a performance feature, not just a programming feature.

Conversion of styles, while not automated, is straightforward. The Jammer Live sytle format is a superset of Yamaha's. A Yamaha style basically includes instruments and parts. The instruments corresponding to JL's musician styles, and what the instruments play during a Yamaha part are JLs riffs. In the absence of a CASM converter, there will be tweaking necessary to get the style to function correctly. However, I would guess that all the CASM capabilities are provided in plain English by JL.

Further, Band In the Box styles should convert pretty well to JL. This would give a source of probabilistic styles.

I think the software autoaccompaniment future is bright.

Clif

Dear Frank

I appreciate your input and look forward to your review next week. Are you a gigging musician? I am just a hobbyist.

Regarding the operating system, I do find W98 to be quite stable. It does take longer to boot than a dedicated synth, so that is a small problem. I am still concerned about timing issues. I played JL from my computer keyboard while I was printing the JL help files and noted timing problems. Ok, so you will not print while you are playing. However, you might be running gigasampler. I think that if there are timing problems, they can be solved, but it may take some experience sharing.

I have a PSR-8000 and was assuming that I would upgrade in a year to the PSR-9000. Now that seems unlikely.

By the way, if you use gigasampler for maybe gigastudio, don't you have the effects you want built in. On the other hand, I like vocal harmonization and I am trying to figure out how best to integrate that with JL.

Clif

Dear Frank,
I was looking through the official gigasampler bbs and read that a laptop won't work well with gigasampler (something to do with the harddrive) and that the company recommends small computers. I forgot what they called them.
I am very interested in this gigasampler-jammerlive thing. Seems great. I also read that giga is cpu hungry & you don't always get so much polyphony from it so you'll have to check if it can run together with jammerlive.

Please keep me updated. I'm knoledge hungry!

Thank you.

------------------
Jick

Franks point about the incompatibility of Laptops and Gigasampler is discouraging. Maybe I do not really need portability, but it would be nice. Clearly high-end laptops are powerful enough for gigasampler. The problem might be power management--spinning down hard drives when not in use. Maybe not all do.

Also, do not overlook Elle's observation that the 500 MB General Midi sound set comes with its own player. So that at least for General Midi, Gigasampler is not needed.

If that is still a problem, there is a 150 MB General Midi set that could be loaded into RAM.

I guess there is another class of computers, not battery powered but small and light weight with an LCD screen built in. Sony, NEC, and I think Compaq make these. Maybe they represent the best portable Gigasampler solution.

Clif

Laptops and Gigsampler are not on...yet. The closest is Egosys (www.egosys.co.kr) who has an audio pcmia card+box (the Wamibox), for which they are working on the needed GSIF (gigasampler-interface) low latency driver. If you intend to use a laptop please mail Egosys to urge them on their driver :-)

Also a bum is the 5400 or lower rpm of laptop HDs (saving energy). Here, the way out is using an second external HD.

By the way one better uses ALWAYS 2 HDs for a gigsampler DAW (digital audio workstation): the boot disk for Win98 and the GS program and a second exclusively for gig samples.

So...
Here we are,
(Prices are estimated)

PII/PIII 400-500 Mhz
2-5 gig harddrive (for system & software)
5-40 gig fast harddrive (for samples)
128-256 RAM
Compatible soundcard(preferebly with own effects)
Win98 (Win98 Lite)
=$500-$1800

Gigasampler = $299 (250?)
(or Gigasampler LE for $99)

JammerLive = $50

good 76 key cntroler with some sliders = $500-$900



TOTAL = approximatelly $1150-$3000(max)


Why get an arranger keyboard (assuming no latency problems) if this system is much more powerfull, sounds "much" nicer, can be much cheaper, and is expandable and upgradable?
Doesn't everyone agree with me?

About portability: I think that a small to average computer with a small cheap monitor (maybe even LCD) is not that of a problem esspecially considering the advantages.
Doesn't everyone agree with me?

Thank you very much. This is really a great BBS!

------------------
Jick

Or you can even leave out the Gigasampler and just get the 500mb General Midi library. It's better than any sampler, no? -$300
(+ ??? How much does the 500mb GM library with operating software cost?)

------------------
Jick

Conexant GM500 = $149 http://www.nemesysmusic.com/gssound.htm http://www.conexant.com/pressroom/releases/10131999-1.asp

GS full = $237, $149 upgrade for Gigastudio www.audiotracks.com

As for JLive...let's push Soundtrek for an style exchange forum (like Line6 POD exchange) http://www.line6.com/Main/The_LUP/Patch_Exchange/conference/patchx.html

I thinking asking Soundtrek for a style exchange forum is a great idea. If Soundtrek does not move on this idea, there are other alternatives. Bob Gelman has been running two very successful e-bay forums for Yamaha keyboards, including a 20MB vault of Yamaha styles.

The current I am working on now is capable of video capture (with two UW SCSI drives), so I am sure it can handle Gigasampler. But I would not mind hearing about any more portable solutions. I am thinking that some AC-powered lunch-box type computer with built in LCD screen might do the trick as long as it has room for a second hard drive.

Clif

Hi Frank

Could you explain in a little more detail what it is you want to do that Jammer Live cannot do?

Clif

Hi Frank

Thanks for the clarification. Some more related questions. Do you have an arranger keyboard now--if so what is it? What would you use as your controller for Jammer Live if you do not get the PSR-9000?

Clif

Hi Frank,
I just don't get the problem. (Am I missing something?) Why do you have to send the right hand voice(es) through Jammerlive? Set up the controller so that it sends left hand (below the split point) to, lets say, midi channel 1 and right hand to channel 2. Now have Gigasampler use any voice you want for channel 2 (or you can use a second or third voice on channel 3 & 4 respectivally). Now have Jammerlive recieve from channel 1, and I don't know over which channels Jammerlive sends it's accompaniment (midi) signals (I suppose you can program them), but have Gigasampler use the voices you want for those channels (which is the accompaniment) lets say channels 8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and 15 (8 channels for your 8 part accomp.) Can't even a simple midi controller split the channels. I suppose that you can pick what should be sent over which channel from whatever program or controller.
Thank you.

------------------
Jick

Considering formants and harmonies: check the Waves's ProFX. There is a DX plugin called Ultrapitch and it can do 6 voice harmonies with altered formants, pitch and timing (you can set the voices before and after original voice so it sounds like real singers).

Got this back form the local Jammer dealer.

---------
I believe that the Jammer Live should deal perfectly with the Conexant libraries, as they are General Midi compatible. The only problem you could encounter (with Jammer or any other MIDI program) would be an eventual latency problem (which I don't believe would happen, we all know that Nemesys internal drivers are well written... ;-). Anyway, this latency wouldn't be produced by the driving MIDI program (whatever it is), but by the response time of Nemesys' program, which, honestly, I doubt to ever happen. We did here numerous test with our programs remoting the GigaSampler, and we never noticed any latency anyway.
------------

We will test the GS/GM500/JL combination in a week or so.

To be honest with you, Frank, I just don't get your problem. ;-)(Am I too optimistic?) What are Hubi cables anyway?

------------------
Jick

Now to be REALLY honest with you, Frank, I hardly ever worked with midi. I just read about it and read different manuals from different keyboards. It just seems logical(from what I know about midi) that it should work.
About your wanting to be able to change effects from the controller keyboard: I think that this depends on the keyboard also.

I am also considering getting a small computer with Jammer Live, Gigasampler, and a controller keyboard. And, hey, I want exactly what you want. I would also like harmony for the right hand.

------------------
Jick

Read about Gigastudio doing all the realtime midi-triggered effects for you.

Hi,

veery interesting discussion going on here. I have a few questions:
1. can jammer pro (not live!) use yamaha psr-styles?
2. would a laptop with 466 celeron, 64 MB Ram, full duplex sound card work with jammer pro and the quoted gigasampler 500 mb library (no sampling!)
3. Anybody interested to buy a brandnew korg i40m für 1150 bucks?

Best regards to all

Heinrich

Heinrich,

From what I gather at Nemesys' website (the FAQ section), they don't recommend using Gigasampler on a laptop computer (due to hard disk speed issues, etc.) They do recommend a "lunchbox" computer or a rackmount PC if you need portability. And I figure you'd need to use Gigasampler to use the Conexant GM library.

For more info, check at www.nemesystech.com/ in the FAQ section.

HTH,

Cindy G.

Below I quote what Nemesys says about laptops in their FAQ. Despite the negative answer, I would not be discouraged from trying a laptop, at least with an external harddisk. There must be at least one PMCIA soundard by now, and some laptops have built in sound. There is a PMCIA UW SCSI available. Also, there are firewire interfaces and disks available. So what if 500MHz laptops are slower than their like rated desktops. As long as they are fast enough. Also, I bet many laptops allow power management to be turned off, at least when the laptop is coupled to AC.

On the other hand, the lunchbox computers recommended by Nemisis at www.bsicomputer.com may be an attractive option is an external harddisk is not desired.

There is another laptop option to consider: while it may seem to defeat the main feature of gigasampler, one could load samples into RAM. For example, the 150 MB GM library would fit into a high-end laptop's RAM.

Clif


"Q: Do you recommend a laptop for portable use?

A: Notebook\laptop computers are generally not recommended for running the GigaSampler. They tend to perform slower than their desktop counterparts of the same advertised speed. The miniaturization plays a part in slowing things down. Due to lack of readily available PCMCIA soundcards, the audio output on laptop computers doesn’t compare either. The power management will also cause major problems.

There are two recommended options for portability. Portable computers and Rackmount systems."

Candidate for a Gigasampler Laptop. Here is a laptop setup that was used for video editing. Ok, it sounds like it needs a docking station. Still, you have a laptop to use for the less demanding applications. I am not saying this will work with Gigasampler, but if it works well for video editing it is a good candidate.

"Adobe Premiere 5.1 work fluently with DV Raptor in a docking station on a Gateway 9300XL Pentium III, 500, 160+DVD 4x and top 15", modem, 5 hours battery-power and all build in!
They even used an extra 20 GIG LaCie Firewire drive with no problems!"

Clif

It's not just the laptop CPU and HD performance. It is also the lack of any GSIF compatible soundcards. No using GSIF will lead to latency problems. However this should be should in the not to distant future.

And I got this back from Soundtrek:
------
Someone on this list said:
>..."I talked to SoundTrek Sales and emailed their Tech Support. It is starting to look like Jammer Live is not able to handle more than 1 voice.

I'm not sure what this person is saying? Please be more specific.

>and then only along the whole keyboard or on the right hand side of the split point.

This is true. Melodies can be played anywhere or limited to a section of the
keyboard. How is that a limitation?

> It appears that one will not be able to send Program or effect changes to the voice I play on the keyboard.

You should be able to do this, if not we will fix it right away.

>Adding harmony to the right hand or melody line would also be nice.

JAMMER LIVE does this in interactive mode.

Keep jammin,

Dave Castles
SoundTrek

Nice follow through, elle. It is great that Soundtrek is being so responsive.

On the other branch of elle's vision, how about Gigasampler CDROMs for $8/each? www.gigasampler.ru

Clif

There is another interesting alternative to Gigasampler, especially for lower power computers: A Sounblaster Live audio card. It comes with a good sounding 8 Meg GM Soundfont library (mostly from Emu Proteus modules). Even better, you can order the killer 24 Meg GM set from www.sonicimplants.com for $69. (I have both the sonic implants and the Conexant GM500 on order and have Jammer Live already.)

A very simple enhancement to Jammer Live would be to save right hand "mixes" (one or more layers) with user selectable voices for intro, groove 1, groove 2, etc. That way you would not have to fiddle with program changes while performing.

As with Gigasampler (soon to evolve into GigaStudio), JamLive as a software product should evolve MUCH faster than hardware arrangers.

Joe Hardy

Frank,
There was no pun intended. Glad you figured it out. You are correct in stating that live playing is still an issue with computers setups. We need setups that will actualy improve the 'button pushing while playing' method of hardware arrangers and certainly do away with the mouse/keyboard interactions of computers. How about voice recognition :-)

Frank,
There was no pun intended. Glad you figured it out. You are correct in stating that live playing is still an issue with computers setups. We need setups that will actualy improve the 'button pushing while playing' method of hardware arrangers and certainly do away with the mouse/keyboard interactions of computers. How about voice recognition :-)

Thinking of building an DAW or a HDSW (hard disk sampling workstation) in the case of Gigastudio? Eat your heart out with this one: http://www.txconnect.com/home/ignot/article/art.htm

Voice recognition, elle? "Oh, say can you see . . .switch to Grand Piano on Channel 1, increase reverb . . . by the dawn's early light . . ." By the way, Canon has developed a system whereby you can control devices by moving your eye. More to the point, I think Jammer Live is pretty good about letting you control everything from the music keyboard. I suppose it is equally amenable to voice control.

Clif

Hi elle,
Can you please transfer that to "simple" English for me(us)? Thank you:-)

------------------
Jick

joking, joking.

about Clif's Russia trip: ..."On the other branch of elle's vision, how about Gigasampler CDROMs for $8/each? www.gigasampler.ru"....

These are converted Akai samples. Quite good and illegal.

I wonder how many of us became "members" since Jammer Live came out?

Hi
Just trying to be a member :-))))))))))))
Jørgen

I went to the .ru web site and noticed that they only accept wire transfer payments. I would not send my money to Russia (being originally from there myself) - I doubt I'd ever see whatever this money was supposed to buy. I would only use credit card transactions when dealing with anyone there (or anywhere else, for that matter) - at least it provides a measure of protection for you.

Regards, Alex

Hi!
So how's the Giga-Jammer project working out folks? Clif, elle, Frank?

I hope that no one gets angry that I'm bringing back this topic. It's just ssooo interesting and it looks very promising. It removes almost all limitations!!

BYE BYE



------------------
Jick

Hi Jick

One new toy at a time for me! It is Jammer Live for now, and probably Gigasampler down the road. I am following elle's directions, but slowly. I am playing with Jammer Live using the sounds that came with my Yamaha Waveforce 192XG sound card. I want to master Jammer Live to some extent before trying to interconnect with other software. I am enjoying Jammer Live and, especially given the reasonable price, highly recommend it.

Clif

Hi Clif,
Thank you for answering me. How many variatins and fills does it allow for each style? Does it have "any" latency at all?
Thank You


------------------
Jick

Jick, I like my Jammer Live. It works great when I midi from my computer to a sound module. But if I use my Roland 88h wavetable, the latency makes unuseable for anything but the drums.I am able to set the latency to "0" in Jammer Live, but can only reduce the latency to 125ms on the wavetable software. The biggest problen is trying to play right hand parts.. If I use the arranger section to play the wavetable and the right hand on the controlling keyboard[its own sounds] it will work, playing chord changes early[ usually the default quarter note quantize will work. It is pretty cool and can work as a back up or occasional arranger service on the job or studio. But it really can't replace a pro arranger keyboard, for my needs..Still, I would say GO FOR IT!!! Fran

Thank you Fran.
If I understand correctly you are saying that Jammer Live has no latency at all and the problem is only with the Roland wave table. Well, that sounds very incoraging. It should work good with Gigasampler, no? I was told that gigasampler has a latncy of 8-10ms and that any hardware sampler has at least 10ms of latency. So I suppose that the total latency of Jammer Live working with Gigasampler should be <8-10ms. Am I right?
How many variations and fills does it have for every style?
Last but not least: Why is it that you say that Jammer Live can't compete with a good arranger keyboard? I mean, I understand that a good arranger keyboard has more features but I'm talking about using it together with Gigasampler. I think that the added advantage of good sound quality (Gigasampler) is a big "plus", no?

Thank you very much,


------------------
Jick

Check out this site. It has two more software arrangers. They might be good to use with Gigasampler. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michaelbrick/rmcapro.htm#download

------------------
Jick

Hi Jick

I have not noticed any latency, but I am not really listening for it. You might ask Soundtrek directly about limitations on the number of fills and variations per style.

Styles are referred to as "song styles" in Jammer Live. Variations and fills are "band styles". 14 band styles are immediately accessible using a pointer, but these are part of a scrollable list, so the total number of band styles available for a song style is probably greater. Jammer Live allows you to lock band styles when changing song styles so that band styles from more than one song style are available at once. Using locking, I could load about 32 band styles at once. So I would guess that the answer to your question is that a song style can have up to 32 band styles, including intros, endings, variations, and fills.
Clif