I was so excited to see the PA1xpro. It appeared to be everything I have been waiting for in an aranger (yes, still haven't bought one yet). Weighted keys, sturdy shell, professional look, good sequencer..... I hate the Korg horn sounds though and piano.
The TYROS's sweet, natural sounds are awesome but lame styles. Can I get an arranger with Korg styles and Yamaha sounds? That would be my purchase!

Anyone have a demo MP3 of the new SD1 Plus piano? or anything for that matter? Maybe I'll go back to looking at Ketron again.

If you're going to play live, then I can understand this as being a big issue. Find what works best overall, or continue to search.. I guess these are the only choices. I think UD understands this pretty well, and in a way, so do I.

If your composing / playing at home / in the studio..etc , you can do so much in the computer too. I don't like my PA80 piano sound, but I like the styles. I also like the Yamaha styles too, ( some better and some not ) but for this topic's sake.. if overall I liked the PA80's / PA1x's better, then I think I'm gravitating toward that board because it has the styles I want.. since that is the reason for having an arranger in the first place. Again, playing live is another story and the whole package becomes a little more important to me ( vocalizers, sounds, OS..etc )

There are several good software sampling options to add that piano sound or horn that the PA doesn't give me. There is also the option of adding a workstation to assist in my composition. There are the hardware types ( Motif's Triton studios..etc ), but also some pretty good software contenders too.

In the studio, the options are plentiful. In a live setting, you're out there.. All you really have is your skills and your own ability to entertain. The keys and other equipment are just tools that assist you in doing so, but I understand the desire to have the best tools you can for the job at hand. I was a carpenter by trade. I wasn't bringing a department store's $39.00 circular saw to a job to do framing work.

AJ

Hi sean

No Ketron mp3's but I just recorded a new song from my Tyros. It is a Demo of the Tyros's Brass and Woodwind instruments mainly Brass though. Another neat thing about the Tyros is the great Drum Kits. This song really highlights the awesome Live! Drum Kits of the Tyros.

You know sean, you could get a Tyros and download the SD-1 Styles from the Yahoo PSR Styles Group and have the best of both Worlds if you don't really care for the Tyros's internal Styles. The SD-1 is a great Board too and now they've come out with the SD-1plus which has increased Polyphony and an improved operating system plus other extras. Either way they're both great Boards. My advice is to try before you buy and then decide which one fits your needs best.

Here is the mp3 I just recorded:
http://keybplayer.tripod.com/Late_Night_Theme_Original.mp3 Enjoy!

Best regards,
Mike

Actually, I'm gravitating to the SD-1 plus. I've always thought the real drums and styles were good and the solo horn and saxes are comparable to what I like about Yamaha's. That's why I'm interested to see if they've improved their piano any. If so, I may be sold. However, I saw some discussion about the original SD-1 being not too intuitive and easy to learn and has an inferior sequencer. Perhaps these were some of the improvements in the SD-1 Plus? Anyone know?

My uses will not be live performance, but composing and recording, so I'm less concerned with getting around the board quickly. I'm mainly concerned with quality of sounds-mostly realistic styles. I like the hip Korg Styles, but I think the sampled live drums on the Ketron make it a more realistic backing rhythm section.

Anyone know if the SD-1 Plus piano is better than the old one?

If you check the threads, I posted the differences between the SD1 and SD1plus.

I have MP3's posted MP3's using the SD1 exclusively on my website www.keyboardcity.net .

I am performing "spirit of " at church today for all saints day .

Dano




------------------
keyboardcity@yahoo.com
www.keyboardcity.net
1-866-348-8876

"Can I get an arranger with Korg styles and Yamaha sounds? That would be my purchase!"

Sean,

Buy the Tyros, then download all the third-party Korg styles, put them on the hard drive, then attach the Yamaha voices to their associated OTS settings. Then you'll have exactly what you wished for.

Merry Christmas,

Gary

Gary has a good point. Some of the PA80 styles converted pretty nicely to the PSR2000. With a little tweaking some were actually pretty good on the 2k. The Yamaha styles don't seem to convert as well the other way around. I have a few that I converted and used for the PA80, but in some cases I can't get a good sound from the PA80 for a particular instrument.

AJ

Good idea. As soon as there is a 76 weighted TYROS pro, I may do that. Unitl then as far as good sounds AND good styles, it would seem SD-1Plus is my first choice. Actually my dream board would be TYROS sounds, SD-1 keyboard and live drums, and PA1xpro styles and sequencer. I guess I won't be holding my breath on that one.

Why are the Yamaha Styles so sub-par when compared to Korg and Technics is beyond human comprehension.

Yamaha hirer some better style programers please!!!!!!!! Extremely boring 4 bar loops used for the rhythm even on many of the supposedly Big Band arrangements. Except for the very good intros and endings they really are lame. In other words after the intros the rhythm section falls flat on it's face is the way we would say it in real human band or combo terminology.

Korg please please improve the over-all-tone quality (sounds) of the problem horns and Pianos please!!!!!!! And really the sequencer should be compatible with prior Korg arrangers. Who wants to have to go through the ordeal of re-sequencing every tune. If you're not concerned with us who use the sequencer, why even put one on the arranger. Just leave it off if you're going to continue to make it incompatible with a prior Korg arranger. A different sequencer is useless to me, a horn player trying to convert to being a combo horn player plus a keyboard performer.

Wow others are finally beginning to see what I've said for the past two years.

If you use just the drums on an arranger of course you won't notice the lame styles. If you use the styles, it has to be impossible for you not to notice how weak some of them are.

How one can be so dogmatic about the high and low resolutions and not be bothered by the lame styles is mind boggling to me.

Sorry to step on toes here, but the facts are the facts. I can only say it must be because many here have not played with really swing rhythm sections. I'm talking bass, drums, piano, and guitar for the rhythm section.

I mean this in a constructive way not trying to insult anyone. Facts are facts. I've always played with live musicians this arranger stuff is relatively new to me. In my day arrangers were toys I assume, if they even had any.

I'm not picking on anyone. I just want improvements like the rest of you. Our needs all differ.

Brick...
I am not familiar with the styles of ALL the KBs out there, but I would still pick Yamaha styles over Technics and Roland, hands down. "Why?" you say.

In the case of Technics, I find the styles a bit dated (my opinion) and very cluttered with accomp parts. The loops in the Rolands I have demo'd seem to sound more like loops than the Yamaha's (again, my opinion).

What I really like about the Yamaha products, especially from the 2000 up, is that EVERYTHING can be edited and saved to specific registrations. For instance, you (as a big band and jazz guy) can edit any of the accomp parts very easily so that when you use one of the styles for several different songs it will not sound the same.

3 intros and endings is another big feature I like, as well as 4 standard variations to any style, all of which can be edited to your liking.

As far as the horns and pianos you mentioned, again, I find them to be as good as any arranger I have played. But, in all fairness to your comments, I do not sequence hardly anything. Now that I have found appropriate voices for certain songs, I have no qualms about grabbing them on the fly, knowing they will be appropriate for the sound I want. Of course, there are some I stay away from...but again, that is a personal preference.
No argument here. Just thoughts that came to mind when I read your post.
Eddie

I still say " I'd rather play with Ringo Starr than Steve Gadd any day."
Busy, drum parts just get in the way.

I wouldn't disagree when I'm playing pop style tunes, but I think I might pickSteve if I'm playing Jazz / Jazz - fusion.

AJ

Me too AJ... ( IF I could keep up with those jazz cats! )I was talking about dance tunes, of course.
No self respecting jazzer would really use an arranger for that anyway. These tools are compromise-city, and while they are great for what there are.....we need to remind ourselves of what they will never be sometimes.
If we all had our "druthers" ...... none of us would be doing the arranger thing, would we??????
Tough question .............. sometimes I like not having any other input into the mix, and other times ..... I just hate these toy bands.
Catch 22.
Band members ..... can't live WITH 'em, can't shoot 'em.

All Good points Uncle Dave. Especially the part of "jazzers" and arrangers. I like to dabble in jazz quite a bit, but I don't consider myself an accomplished / polished jazz player by any means.

I grew up as a synth oriented rocker, with also a strong penchant for power blues, and my favorites included guys like Emerson and Wakeman on keys, and Robin Trower on guitar ( those don't mix well at all do they ?..lol ). I sort of drifted toward the jazz - fusion music that was being made at the time and found new favorites in Chick Corea, DiMeola and McLaughlin, to name a few. Later I became a big fan of Monty Alexander and Keith Jarret.

It is only later in life that I've drifted toward more traditional jazz and blues. I find myself trying to learn more about different styles, in the never ending quest to become a better player. I've become more open to listening and even playing in other genres, including traditional classical / neo-classical and techno stuff.

Yep, a real band would always be my first choice if I could manage it. I play with different musicians from time to time, and also do studio work and the occasional show now and then, but life's hectic schedules keep me from committing to doing it on a regular basis... hence the arrangers, Motif's with arps, and several other production tools...

Compromise ? Yes.. at times I certainly think of it that way. In my mind and musical world, a virtual musician will never truly replace the real thing.. but..
Then again, it's great to have these tools that really weren't available even a few years ago in the form they are in now. Particularly in the area of modern synth / dance ..etc music, some of these tools have almost become a must have. It isn't the same as traditional musicians playing acoustic instruments, but for me I see a whole new if not different kind of creativity in some of it.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-03-2003).]

Yeah, I remember playing back when we had a full band. Lots of guys with big egos, some of which had a drinking problem, the equipment as far as keyboards were concerned, were stone-age at best, and at the end of the night you split a meager paycheck that wasn't enough to pay expenses. Since the advent of the new synths, you don't need a drummer, bass player, lead and rythm guitar players, plus a roadie to lug the stuff from the truck to the job. All you need now are some computer skills, playing ability, vocal skills and you're ability to entertain. When it comes time for the paycheck, you usually get the same amount of money the full band received, but guess what--you get to keep it. Life's a lot better, for me at least, since I no longer have to contend with a bunch of egocentric guys that are all now doing other things for a living.

Just my two-cents worth,

Gary

It's all about where you're coming from Gary. You'll get no argument here.. There is no doubt in my mind that arrangers have opened up many new doors and options for those in the entertainment business.

Although I do entertain occasionally, that really isn't the perspective I'm looking at it from, although it is one of the reasons I have an arranger per se, and I'm grateful to have one. Arrangers are also good practice tools and can be useful to me for composing / emulating some types of music. Still, I can listen to just about any piece that anyone does with an arranger ( including me ), and recognize instantly that it isn't a real band playing it. I guess the same can be said for most of the music made on synths / workstations too though. The difference in my mind ( right or wrong ) is that the workstation often isn't trying to emulate a real band

For me, it really isn't about business, it's more about the art form itself, and I truly prefer it that way. On those occasions when I do make some money at it ( the occasional studio or entertainment gig ), I certainly don't object to being paid.. but that isn't my primary reason for playing music.

The arranger is a great tool, but for me it doesn't replace the feel of playing with a live band, and I suspect that in spite of the future technological advances that are bound to come about, it never will.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-03-2003).]

Gary,
You're comparing the "worst" of live players to the "best" of solo gear.
Unfair comparison.
I love the freedom and stability of working alone too, but there is NOTHING like ensemble playing. NOTHING in the world.
Pity the budgets and the temperaments have made it come to this kind of choice. I used to be proud to tell people that I was a professional entertainer ..... nowadays, it seems like I am justifying my carreer choice more and more.
It still beats anything else I could be doing but .... you know the drill......
It gets harder every year to stay at the top of your game. I feel like Joe Montana when he got to Kansas City. Sigh......

I agree with Gary..AJ, if you want the arranger to sound like a real band, just make a few mistakes, melody notes or a wrong chord,vocally miss your cue for a voice here and there etc..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-03-2003).]

Fran, I can easily do that when I play live, sometimes even whether I want to or not ..

I don't think that's gonna help me geta real natural sound all that much in the studio though, unless I can find a way to program the drummer and other "musicians" to automatically make a proportionate number of mistakes right along with me.


AJ