I still say " I'd rather play with Ringo Starr than Steve Gadd any day."
Busy, drum parts just get in the way.

I wouldn't disagree when I'm playing pop style tunes, but I think I might pickSteve if I'm playing Jazz / Jazz - fusion.

AJ

Me too AJ... ( IF I could keep up with those jazz cats! )I was talking about dance tunes, of course.
No self respecting jazzer would really use an arranger for that anyway. These tools are compromise-city, and while they are great for what there are.....we need to remind ourselves of what they will never be sometimes.
If we all had our "druthers" ...... none of us would be doing the arranger thing, would we??????
Tough question .............. sometimes I like not having any other input into the mix, and other times ..... I just hate these toy bands.
Catch 22.
Band members ..... can't live WITH 'em, can't shoot 'em.

All Good points Uncle Dave. Especially the part of "jazzers" and arrangers. I like to dabble in jazz quite a bit, but I don't consider myself an accomplished / polished jazz player by any means.

I grew up as a synth oriented rocker, with also a strong penchant for power blues, and my favorites included guys like Emerson and Wakeman on keys, and Robin Trower on guitar ( those don't mix well at all do they ?..lol ). I sort of drifted toward the jazz - fusion music that was being made at the time and found new favorites in Chick Corea, DiMeola and McLaughlin, to name a few. Later I became a big fan of Monty Alexander and Keith Jarret.

It is only later in life that I've drifted toward more traditional jazz and blues. I find myself trying to learn more about different styles, in the never ending quest to become a better player. I've become more open to listening and even playing in other genres, including traditional classical / neo-classical and techno stuff.

Yep, a real band would always be my first choice if I could manage it. I play with different musicians from time to time, and also do studio work and the occasional show now and then, but life's hectic schedules keep me from committing to doing it on a regular basis... hence the arrangers, Motif's with arps, and several other production tools...

Compromise ? Yes.. at times I certainly think of it that way. In my mind and musical world, a virtual musician will never truly replace the real thing.. but..
Then again, it's great to have these tools that really weren't available even a few years ago in the form they are in now. Particularly in the area of modern synth / dance ..etc music, some of these tools have almost become a must have. It isn't the same as traditional musicians playing acoustic instruments, but for me I see a whole new if not different kind of creativity in some of it.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-03-2003).]

Yeah, I remember playing back when we had a full band. Lots of guys with big egos, some of which had a drinking problem, the equipment as far as keyboards were concerned, were stone-age at best, and at the end of the night you split a meager paycheck that wasn't enough to pay expenses. Since the advent of the new synths, you don't need a drummer, bass player, lead and rythm guitar players, plus a roadie to lug the stuff from the truck to the job. All you need now are some computer skills, playing ability, vocal skills and you're ability to entertain. When it comes time for the paycheck, you usually get the same amount of money the full band received, but guess what--you get to keep it. Life's a lot better, for me at least, since I no longer have to contend with a bunch of egocentric guys that are all now doing other things for a living.

Just my two-cents worth,

Gary

It's all about where you're coming from Gary. You'll get no argument here.. There is no doubt in my mind that arrangers have opened up many new doors and options for those in the entertainment business.

Although I do entertain occasionally, that really isn't the perspective I'm looking at it from, although it is one of the reasons I have an arranger per se, and I'm grateful to have one. Arrangers are also good practice tools and can be useful to me for composing / emulating some types of music. Still, I can listen to just about any piece that anyone does with an arranger ( including me ), and recognize instantly that it isn't a real band playing it. I guess the same can be said for most of the music made on synths / workstations too though. The difference in my mind ( right or wrong ) is that the workstation often isn't trying to emulate a real band

For me, it really isn't about business, it's more about the art form itself, and I truly prefer it that way. On those occasions when I do make some money at it ( the occasional studio or entertainment gig ), I certainly don't object to being paid.. but that isn't my primary reason for playing music.

The arranger is a great tool, but for me it doesn't replace the feel of playing with a live band, and I suspect that in spite of the future technological advances that are bound to come about, it never will.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-03-2003).]

Gary,
You're comparing the "worst" of live players to the "best" of solo gear.
Unfair comparison.
I love the freedom and stability of working alone too, but there is NOTHING like ensemble playing. NOTHING in the world.
Pity the budgets and the temperaments have made it come to this kind of choice. I used to be proud to tell people that I was a professional entertainer ..... nowadays, it seems like I am justifying my carreer choice more and more.
It still beats anything else I could be doing but .... you know the drill......
It gets harder every year to stay at the top of your game. I feel like Joe Montana when he got to Kansas City. Sigh......

I agree with Gary..AJ, if you want the arranger to sound like a real band, just make a few mistakes, melody notes or a wrong chord,vocally miss your cue for a voice here and there etc..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-03-2003).]

Fran, I can easily do that when I play live, sometimes even whether I want to or not ..

I don't think that's gonna help me geta real natural sound all that much in the studio though, unless I can find a way to program the drummer and other "musicians" to automatically make a proportionate number of mistakes right along with me.


AJ