We all like to debate on the relative merits of our arranger keyboards; since I believe that an example is worth a thousand words, have thought to post a song recorded -in two separate occasions- on two different keyboards: the Yamaha Tyros 2 and the Roland G-70.
The song was written by the great brazilian composer Ary Barroso (the same one who wrote "Aquarela do Brasil") and the original title is "Na baixa do sapateiro"; however, it has become known all over the world as just "Bahia".
As I said, the two recordings were made in different occasions and for each one I have tried to use the best tools (sounds and styles) the two keyboards had to offer, so they are by no means a carbon copy of each other, nor were they recorded through midifiles.
I will leave further comments for later, if anyone has questions.
The songs can be downloaded either at createsongstyles.com (link
here ) or (only the G-70 version) at Roland-Arranger.com (link here ).
I don't know if, to download them, one has to register; if this is the case, I will try to upload them to my website (but the bandwidth is presently limited).
Let me know if you have problems with the download.

Andrea: No trouble downloading only after finally logging in (with password) to Create/Styles.

It's easy to hear the sound difference between the G70 & T2, with the G70 presening richer bass and the T2 offering more detailed upper mid frequencies. That said, I would expect, thru EQ, EFX, and compressor setting adjustments, you could get BOTH keyboards to sound closer to each other. I acknowledge that I typically need to boost the volume & effects levels of the drum and bass tracks on my Tyros2 to get them to sound the way I like. Both keyboards sound great to my hears, each with something uniquely special to offer. Btw: enjoyed your playing.

Scott

Hi Dreamer,

The first link takes you to your forum thread and does not provide a link for downloading the samples. Scott already mentioned the need to Register or Log In to the website prior to being able to download the samples.
Uploading them to a different site might be preferable in this case.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts


[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 09-08-2007).]

Duplicate post

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 09-08-2007).]

ok... I have uploaded both songs to my website, but need to work a bit on it; meanwhile, here is another link for downloading:

click here:

P.S.: you have to select a file, then press the "scarica" button.

And this is the link to my website.

Nice tune..I definitly liked the G70 version of the two judging by what Im hearing.....everything about it just sounds so warm & real. But I'd like to hear the same "EXCACT" sound choices played on both Kb's to make a proper assessment of the two.

Thanx

This is really a no brainer. The G-70 sounds better hands down. I also think that the sounds selected to be played on the G-70 were much more appealing and played as a mix much better than the instrument selection on the Tyros 2. I agree with Donny, similar instruments being used would provide a better assessment of the two. However, it would never truly end the debate.
Kudo's to you Dreamer for the effort though.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts


[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 09-08-2007).]

Both versions had a lot going for them... The percussion sounded great in the Yamaha until that weird tambourine part messed up the groove. Strange rhythm....

The approach and instrumentation were so different on each version that it isn't really a comparison, IMO. If you had tried to match sounds, effects levels and the like, it would have made an interesting choice, but given just how different both versions are, all I can say is first, nice playing!

And then, I like both... About equally. I like the more upfront Roland rhythm section, but I like the pad and harmonica layer in the Tyros. I'd be happy to gig either of them (if I was doing that style of music) but I know I'd keep bruising my fingers going for notes outside the 61 note range!

This demo makes me want to see some of the members post their best efforts at simple solo instrument simulation. i.e. Sax, Guitar, Piano or whatever. Just to give us some idea of what various keyboards are capable of doing as a solo instrument simulator.

D.

An awful lot of imitative synthesis revolves around the PLAYER, not the sound. I've heard some amazing things by amazing players on old technology, and we have ALL heard someone make a T2's SA sax sound like a kazoo!

One of the main tricks with imitative sounds is to learn what your sound CAN'T do, and then don't do it! No matter HOW much you'd like to...

So a really good demo of say a sax sound on anyone's arranger usually involves playing to it's strengths, and avoiding it's weaknesses. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison, unlike Purgatory Creek...

No doubt about it, Roland sounds are awesome. The only reason I'm playing a Tyros now is first of all the weight, second, the choices of beginnings and endings, the easy to navigate OS, the ability to load any style, even from the G 70, and the overall reliability of the board. I still love the sounds of my G 1000, but at 300 gigs per year, the Tyros more than does the job. For me it's not about the board so much as it is the overall presentation.

Rock on,

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

While one can say "warm", others can say "muffled" I thought the G-70 MP3 sounded a bit deep.

I preferred the clean lead sound of the T-2.

The drums were definitely better sounding on the G-70.

Of course this all depends on the settings used to record each song, and the hardware that we are listening with.

So it's difficult to say one is better then the other. I also say thanks for the demos, and nice playing.



------------------
Larry
SynthZone Frapper

Dreamer no doubt about it the G70 is richer. The piano and sax you used are 2 of my favorites on the G70. The Tyros2 sounds terrific as well. I had my wife listen to both samples as well without her knowing which was which. She too chose the G70 as the richer.



Probably the same reasons I won't part with the Tyros2.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-08-2007).]

Well this definitively proves it!!!!!
The evidence is overwhelming!!

Both keyboards are equally just as good and bad, and both of them cam be made to sound good or bad.

Its really all about the player.
Both boards can make a bad player sound good and a good player can make one or both of them sound bad.

I personally thought that the G70�s rendition sounded better. It had more space and character to it. The balance of the sounds on the G70 sounded more appealing. The G70�s rendition was slower to me and the sound selected on the g70 was more natural sounding and that added to the warmth. I did however like the percussions in the Tyros 2 rendition.

If I were to base a purchasing decision just on those demos alone, I would choose the G70. But I have heard the Tyros 2 on other occasions and I know about its sonic power and greatness. I have also heard the G70 in situations where it just did not sound good.

Give me a Tyros 2 or G70 and I could make both of them sound very good or very bad depending on what day of the week it is.

One thing to remember here is we are not comparing apples to apples, again. Street price on a G70 nowadays floats around $2700USD, T2 still hovers at $3500+USD.

That's a fair bit extra...

Both still sound wonderful, but one can be had for nearly $800 less than the other. Food for thought.

Dreamer dont you also have a MIDJAY? Id like to hear this tune using the ketron sounds just to make it fair.

It's a comparison between Tyros 2 and G70 so I don't see why the Midjay should be featured as well especially since it's not an arranger keyboard. And then what about Wersi, Lionstracs, Korg, Gem, etc.? If you compare apples with oranges you don't drag in bananas, do you? Now that wouldn't be fair. A banana isn't a fruit after all.

Taike

Ooops I forgot again, we have to start the arguments no matter what is said on any post eh?

Just one correction, the Midjay is an arranger.

Taike[/b][/QUOTE]
Just one correction, the Midjay is an arranger. [/B][/QUOTE]

An arranger, yes, but not a keyboard. Point well taken, though.

Hi Andrea.

Beautiful performance on both keyboards, but it's really two different
kind of renderings we can hear.
Both are very smooth and nice to listen at, but something make me feel
that one recording are done in a studio and also make me feel like I'm
playing a CD on my stereo, and the other are much more "live" and make
me feel the ambience and the musicians presence in the performance.
To me it's the G-70's sounds and style who make the best impression,
Yamaha sounds way too much "studiopolished and cold" in my ears.
(I'm very tempted to add: "as I think Yamaha mostly do")

Thanks, and Happy Playing
GJ

.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-16-2007).]

In this comparison, I prefer the way the G70 sounds. I do agree though that there is probably a wide margin in the way the EQ is setup on both machines. I also agree that Yamaha arrangers have a certain sound that for me makes them recognizable. The T2 certainly has improved the Yamaha sound palette, yet I can go back and listen to pieces I did with my PSR 530 and I can almost flawlessly recreate them on my Tyros 2.

I think perhaps that's an inherent trait in a lot of the manufacturers. I had a Korg M1 back in it's day. The PA80 is a completely different animal, yet many of the edit menus for the synthesis engine are quite similar. Having revisited the M1 in the software version, even some of the sounds are quite similar.

I guess it makes sense to me in that manufacturers like to stay with what "brung 'em to the dance". I see it in the software realm too. Although there have been numerous improvements, the Cubase engine still has a lot of the same look and feel as it did back in the days when the Atari platform ruled the roost. Ditto "M" ( later Muszys ) and Band in a Box.


Regards

AJ

Andrea,

It seems to me the T2 recording just sounds too bright/sharp. I do know this is not the way a T2 sounds usually.
Also I wonder what style was used for this song.... was it a converted one?
Nice tune !

R.

I miss the lower tones in the T2 recording, my T2 sound a lot better,Just the right settings.
Recording of the T2 could sound much better than this .

Impuls

To my ears the G70 sounded the most natural and live almost like a real band. The T2 had this very annoying tambourine sound. The rhythm within the percusion that the tambourine was playing sounded completely out of place with the rest of the backing and put me off.

Dear friends,
thank you for your comments: a lot of wisdom there (no kidding...) and I am glad that my effort has been scrutinized by such a competent audience (again, no kidding... )
Yes, your comments are all competent and the diversity among them shows once again that the beauty lies in the eye (ear?) of the beholder.
I agree that the comparison is not very meaningful, and for a lot of reasons; to mention just a few:
- the style of course is not the same
- the recording technique was not the same, essentially because the two keyboards are currently in two different rooms of my house and I could not move my digital recorder, so to record the G-70 I used my laptop running Adobe Audition 2.0, with a Tascam US-144 as audio/midi interface.
- the sounds chosen were not similar, but this makes sense because I used the sounds I like more in both keyboards (Jazz Guitar layered with a vocal sound and Harmonica layered with strings on the T2 and Blowed Alto Sax and Grand Piano X on the G-70). Now, since I recorded the T2 version first, to make the comparison more meaningful I should have chosen similar sounds on the G-70, but the fact is that I don't like the G-70 Jazz Guitar, and speaking of the Harmonica... yes, is good, but not to the point of playing, all exposed, a lead line in a song like this.
On the other hand, the G-70 enabled me to choose for the first time a piano sound, which I was never able to use on the Tyros, because to my ears is too dry and the decay is too fast (so to me the overall result is that it lacks "body"). Of course these are personal preferences, but since I was the one that had to play, the question is: how can you record a decent song if you are using a sound that doesn't inspire you?
So I agree that it wasn't a real test, but my goal was to show you what these keyboards have to offer... and it's a lot!

Now, to address a few specific points:
- it's true that the sound of the Tyros can change dramatically "messing" with the compressor (even more than the equalizer)
- a big plus of the T2 are the multipads (Diki, the percussions you hear at the beginning were added through multipads; I use this technique to beef up a style and also to add tension as the song goes on); the "weird" tambourine is actually a pandeiro: combined with the little acoustic guitar that kicks in a few bars after (a very good emulation of the brazilan "cavaquinho": kudos to the programmer! ), it gives this song a very brazilian feeling. I know that the beat sounds strange, but in Brazil you hear a lot of stuff like this, with that "faltering" groove.
- Roel, the style is custom made: you have a good ear... and, speaking of frequency response, I use a system by Syrincs that YOU recommended a lot of time ago (do you remember?) Since this system has a (powerful) active subwoofer, it's likely that I tend to reduce the bass frequencies of my T2 a bit, especially with the compressor, hence (maybe) the lack of deep bass when a song is played through other speakers
- Donny, I use the Midjay more as a backing unit; to tell you the truth, the small display and the user interface make it a bit of a nightmare programming things like registrations; I have to admit, however, that both the Tyros 2 and the G-70 have more to offer, sonic-wise.
And... to answer the final remark by Arno, I am currently working on another song, to be recorded again with both keyboards; this time I will try to choose similar instruments (but not to the expense of a lack of inspiration, of course...) and will also try to tweak the global settings on my Tyros 2, so I HOPE that it will sound at least a bit like yours...

That Tamborine sound is a staple in many of Yamahas arranger styles sound...I used to turn it off in many songs.

Did I ever recommend a Syrincs ?
It's not only the lack of bass-frequencies, the high f's are way to loud, caused by the EQ/COMP.
The best way to do a recording is without EQ's and extra soundprocessing. Never expect other listeners to have the same speakers (and ears) you are using.
The older you get, the more high-f's you lose, we all know that

I have some nice music-friends that produce similar mixes like the T-2 one. Their ages are 65+ ....... ha!

Thank you so much, Roel!
Did I ever say that I have been missing you?
Forget it!



[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 09-09-2007).]

Andrea: You are 65+?! Give me the name of your plastic surgeon.

Back on topic: Were either/both these song renditions originally recorded to MIDI before recording to audio? If so, though I acknowledge both Yamaha and Roland possess their own uniquely distinctive & impressive 'brand' sound, I think it would be very interesting to go back and re-mix the Tyros2 version, muting the auto accompaniment parts to only those included in G70 version, bringing up the volume & boosting the lower frequencies of the bass & drum parts + adjusting EQ/compressor effects/levels similar to that of the G70 version, and allow us to compare again. - Scott

A do over? bahahahahahaha

Two totally different styles, two totally different sets of lead sounds, two totally different mixes performed in different locations through different monitor systems...

There's only two things in common between both examples... It's the same song, and the same player (playing different licks)!

It isn't supposed to be an apples to apples comparison (like Purgatory Creek), and shouldn't really be taken that way... At best, it is a slight indicator of sound quality (once you listen past the different mix and effects and EQ) but I am sure, if you wanted to duplicate the sound of each of them on the other, you could, with skill, get VERY close.

I just feel it is an excellent example of showing just how good BOTH are. Each has it's strengths (I felt the Yamaha's percussion better, but the drums weaker, for example) But I'd be happy with the sound of either, once I got a chance to tweak.

This should be an opportunity for us to come TOGETHER, rather than pull us apart (as we so often do). Sonically, they both are good, and with skill, could easily sound even closer.

Form factor, and OS differences, that's another thing... Yamaha's have multi-pads, Roland's have 76 keys. Yamaha's have a sampler (crippled though it is), Roland's have VK Organ (crippled though THAT is) and V-Drum technology. Lot's of differences there. But if you listen to both renditions, and look beyond how differently each was performed and recorded, it's hard to argue that EITHER isn't a great sound....

Amen to all that!
As I said, I am currently working to another demo; time permitting, I hope to post it within a few days, also because next week I will be out of town.
I welcome technical suggestions from all of you to make this test more meaningful.
Thanks!
A.

P.S.: first thing I have already done:
I have modified the parameters of the T2 compressor according to the settings used by a Yamaha demonstrator called James Sargeant, as reported by Graham UK on another Forum, a few days ago.
Other ideas?