I am considering several things to allow me to get a bigger sound in larger rooms.

One is adding a sub to my JBL 10G2's.

I am considering something like an EV sb121a.

I am also considering getting a Behringer UB802 mixer.

If I were to do that, I suppose one way to add the sub with controls at my finger tips would be to go out of the Control using a "Y" adaptor, or possibly going out of the "Phones" jack.

Would you agree that this would work?

It turns out the people in the stores around here don't know much about it because all I hearing it a bunch of mumbling and stuttering.

What choices are there to do this?

Also, are there any other light weight powered subs out there worth checking into. I'm talking about 35 lbs or less.

What if I got one Barbetta 32C and used that for low end along with my JBL's?
http://www.behringer.com/UB802/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Scott



[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 10-09-2004).]

Yeah saw your last post " The quickest fix that springs to my mind, do gigs where they have a solid in house PA. The next option would perhaps find a good place to rent a PA system for the night. If you only need it for larger shows perhaps the rental option could balance out.

Past all that...if you want more sound, your gonna need more power. Plus your not just depending on your PA as sound reforcment, as you have little to no sound naturally projecting off stage...your dependence on a PA is almost like that of very large studio mounters.

Outside of that the bass driver is a VERY good idea ( yet your setup now honestly doesn't have the power to push an extra bass driver tossed in the mix ). You would get sonic advantages for sure, just not the volume you wish. An option for this ( if your somewhat happy with your JBLs )...add a bass combo amp (200 to 400 watts 15inch speaker for sure ) " You would be able to run a stereo mix through your mixer/current power amp for the JBLs, and the independent bass amp could take a mono source from your mixer.

Beyond that a near complete overhaul of your PA is in order, not to be insulting. Just the needs you have stated bring me to that. Only other small option I can think to enhance your current setup ( outside of the mixer your about to add ), would be a nice big XX-band graphic EQ that would go between your mixer and power amp. While your able to do EQing with the mixer, the added advantage of a big outboard EQ...you could better control your headroom and you would have more headroom " Also if your running instrument cables from your poweramp to the JBLs, get some thicker cables.

One thing that could make a full PA upgrade not so harsh on you. Your already on the market for a mixer...why not make it a powered mixer. Kill two birds with one stone and fill in the blanks with extra speakers as time goes on.

Sidenote...while your checking out mixers ( powered or not ) make SURE you have XLR left/right outputs, dont want to shoot yourself in the foot with a mixer that only offers 1/4inch outputs. Some basic effects built into the board ( that dont suck completely ) and the option for external effect send/returns are fundamental features you dont what to be without.

Scott is using self-powered speakers, so the power will be adequate to push his speakrs.
He is considering getting a powered sub, so power there is not a consideration either.
DonM

Scott, the Sb121a needs a line out or power amp out signal. I tried using the monitor out on my Mackie 808S and didn't get enough signal. I don't know if a headphone out has enough power in it either. Check out your set up and see where you have a line out out signal. As I told you in a previous thread, the EV sub is light and powerful - I'm sure you would like it. Too bad you're not near me, I'd let you use mine for a job or three.

Yeah but large sound in a large room is a consideration, and you not going to exactly pull that off when mains are underpowered in the first place, and your sub has a 10inch speaker. Yet even with the powered speakers...my advice still stands. I had the feeling he wanted to honestly upgrade his PA...not polish a turd. Given the factor of instruments of a "full band" are dependent completely on the PA ( with no offstage sound ), its insulting to those that would pay to hear a show done on a system thats almost not passable for a reading at a coffee shop ( or just vocals for a band ).

Sorry but I question the logic of a 10inch sub, when the mains are 10inch ":P A single 10inch wouldn't fly all that well if only a bass player was going through it AND ran through a PA, so how its solid reinforcement for an entire emulated band is beyond me. If you want a sub for live go with 15inch. Just don't think a 10inch sub thats weaker then the mains is going to bring you the frequency response and the projection one desires for a large live show.

Perhaps if you were the keyboard player in a full band, you could get away with the 10inch sub projecting some off stage sound as you have a solid PA and other band members that are amped as well. Just this isnt the case...your dealing with a keyboard player that is the full band...consideration consideration consideration.

He wants bigger sound in large rooms, I gave tons of options to do just that...all more viable then a underpowered contradiction 10inch sub.

Scott,
Remember back to that happy day when you informed everyone about your new G2's?

Uncle Dave shared some thoughts as to effective, light-weight, setups that IMO, can still be applied here.

Ender4TrackMind,
You have some very good suggestions, some that I personally would use. But IMO, and based on the particulars that Scott had listed (35 lbs/under for additional speaker/amp and only for the larger room event), I believe the problem to solve here is getting a bit more bass out, occasionally, while keeping the overall load, setup time, storage, etc down as small as possible. Again, IMO.

In regards to 'polishing a turd', thats the way I live. I won't bore you with the details as to why, but they basically always come back to money and very little space for doing my music hobby. By the way, I use Turdull Wax

I know I always come off like an asshole "

Just as far as bass goes, if your wanting to fill a room with it. Silly to go with a 10inch speaker simple as that. Fact a 15 is going to kill 10 as far as bass goes, and I dont think an extra five inches on a speaker is going to break his back.

As for mains its debatable if what is already there can handle the job of a larger show. A nice EQ in line would help dramatically with the mains as they stand, as IM sure there is a bit of volume being rolled back to deal with potential clipping and so on now. Past that thing being run balanced by default is going to give more headroom.

IM all for polishing a turd, but there are smart and stupid ways to go about it.

There is a general idea that main systems need to be mega powered to be effective. That's just NOT so.
Efficiency is the key, and the jbl 10s do a pretty good job all by themselves in this department. They lack some "ooomph" in teh bass area, especially when up on sticks.

I had a pair of thos eons, and I did a wedding for 400 people once, and the added Roland sub ( also a 10 Hmmmmm )was all that was needed to fill up the bottom end. The JBLs project the mids and highs very well when they don't have to try and reproduce bass, so with the right crossover point ( about 175 or so ... ) a moderate sub will work wonders.

Some of the new kids on this forum seem to think that we all want to carry lots of gear around, but those of us that have done it long enough know how to get the most from the smallest packages!

Coverage is not as difficult as it may seem, and pure volume is not always the answer. The 350 watts from the JBL eon tops will sound like 1000 if a sub is used correctly. Unless you're doing a rock room ... those large setups are just overkill, and usually scary too.

"There is a general idea that main systems need to be mega powered to be effective. That's just NOT so.
Efficiency is the key, and the jbl 10s do a pretty good job all by themselves in this department. They lack some "ooomph" in teh bass area, especially when up on sticks."


Yuck yuck yuck...perhaps the reason I stated more then once, add a EQ to boost headroom and balance...lord.

"I had a pair of thos eons, and I did a wedding for 400 people once, and the added Roland sub ( also a 10 Hmmmmm )was all that was needed to fill up the bottom end. The JBLs project the mids and highs very well when they don't have to try and reproduce bass, so with the right crossover point ( about 175 or so ... ) a moderate sub will work wonders."

Oh you did a wedding...so I guess the 10 is the end all of bass driver, even if basic freaking physics and logic speaks otherwise. Your going in circles...yay you did a gig with a 10, does that somehow counter a 15 would be as effective or more effective. Sorry to break it to you, but many would consider a single 15 inch to be moderate.

"Some of the new kids on this forum seem to think that we all want to carry lots of gear around, but those of us that have done it long enough know how to get the most from the smallest packages!"

If your to lazy to bring the proper gear as to not insult those that pay to hear, thats your own issue. Plus I find it odd people that have a single keyboard spewing out an entire band midi would bring up gear transpiration problems. I find it completely insane that somehow a respectable speaker size seems to break everyone's collective back, as the sonic advantages are cast to the side.

"Coverage is not as difficult as it may seem, and pure volume is not always the answer. The 350 watts from the JBL eon tops will sound like 1000 if a sub is used correctly. Unless you're doing a rock room ... those large setups are just overkill, and usually scary too."

Once again I redirect to everything I already stated. The only real problem here...our perception of what equals a large room/gig and a full sound is completely different.



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 10-19-2004).]

It's a beautiful morning ........
Think I'll go outside for a while, and just smile !

(love that tune!)

Thankyou Nigel......and Great post Don!!!

Ps...I'm gonna go outside and smile also...good idea dave

Amen!

This is gonna' be a fun day!

Gary

I deleted my post so that it didn't offend anyone. No use sinking to the level of which I was critical.
DonM

Man I missed Don's post before I got a chance to read it.

You Mr. Ender4TrackMind and Uncle Dave are both correct. You need to move large amounts of air to get good bass. This can be done with a short throw 15 inch speaker OR a long throw 10 inch speaker used as a sub.

If you think smaller and lighter is better so be it. If you want to haul around large heavy stuff it is also your back and the majority of us really don't care.

Mr. Ender4TrackMind do not question the talent level or abilities of those of us on the forum. To imply that all most of us do is playback midi files is very insulting. I have personally met many of the fine folks on this forum. I have heard many of them perform. There is as much talent here as anywhere in the world. To imply that using an arranger keyboard somehow makes us less talented only shows how little you really know about things. If you really feel that way about arrangerplayers what are you doing on this forum?

Also while we are being critical your "If your to lazy to bring the proper gear" comment should have been "If you're too lazy" and your "bring up gear transpiration problems" should have been "gear transportation". I think transpiration means moving your sweat around. I hope you know more about physics than English.

Tom

UD...I like that tone too...who was it by...the YOUNG Rascals?

(just a joke...was it the Classics?)

Russ

How can I be sure, in a world that's constantly changing...

Rascles

Yeah ..... Felix Cavalerie on the Hammond!

You guys are great. Felix and the Rascals are my idols. I could talk and play rascals all day.

"Mr. Ender4TrackMind do not question the talent level or abilities of those of us on the forum. To imply that all most of us do is playback midi files is very insulting."

Its only an honest observation, and I dint say EVERYONE did I.

"There is as much talent here as anywhere in the world."

And people say I have an ego.

"To imply that using an arranger keyboard somehow makes us less talented only shows how little you really know about things."

And some people think just because they have an arranger keyboard, they are an entire band or they are a composer that's insulting. I know this isn't the case of everyone here, but those that fit have attacked me here on these boards before. Perhaps that made the minority into the majority for me.

"If you really feel that way about arrangerplayers what are you doing on this forum?"

I don't feel exactly as you thought I might, what are you doing on this forum?

"Also while we are being critical your "If your to lazy to bring the proper gear" comment should have been "If you're too lazy" and your "bring up gear transpiration problems" should have been "gear transportation". I think transpiration means moving your sweat around. I hope you know more about physics than English."

Grammer correction...on the world wide web. Come on now, that's just sad and is the exact reason a member just the other day had unjust fear in posting.

Let's stop this, please!

This forum is supposed to be a place to help people! to share experiences!

I'm tired of reading this kind of discussion.

The majority of us DON'T WANT to carry some heavy subs and tops as ours speakers, because for many it's an everyday job! Of course I would sound better with a 15" or a 18" sub but I (and others) just don't want to have to carry it!

Am I also lazy?


Luis Santos

[This message has been edited by Luis.Santos (edited 10-11-2004).]

Hey cassp etc,

My JBL's are set up to go directly into another powered sub. What about putting 2 JBL's into one sub. Is there a "Y" adaptor available for this with those type of jacks? Is this the way to do it? I presume I won't need a crossover?

Thanx
Scott

Dave, just because a guy has twenty ex-wives doesn't make him an expert on women. I appreciate your opinions as much as anyone elses, but I always keep in mind that you have GAS. I also keep in mind that things having to do with sound are subjective and only relevant in certain contexts.

Mike clearly posted that those were opinions. Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of your first hand experiences are highly opinionated too.

Should we only trust the opinions of those with Gear Aquisition Syndrome?

Are you running stereo? If so, I imagine you could 'Y' two channels into one sub - bass is less directional than high's, so that would work for me. If you're not running stereo, then you only need to run one line from one of the mains speakers to the sub. But better yet, if you have a separate line/power OUT from your mixer I think you'd get a better signal.

Ya, I'm running stereo. It's a Tyros, so I need to. I'll have to check the specs on the UB802 and see if I can discern what is on there for outs. Maybe the phones jack?

I don't have the mixer yet.

Maybe Phones or Tape Out?

Hi Scott -

I read your question - but not any of the answers so I hope there's nothing superfluous here.

In my opinion - you simply cannot be in a large venue without a sub. I just got back from a wedding now (its 1:20AM) where I used one. Its a great pain in the *** to lug around - in fact I've started hiring somebody to set up and break down my equipment just bc of the sub! It costs me $75 but the big sound is worth every penny.

I've only started using in a month ago and everybody's raving about my sound. They don't know what it is - they just know that I have a sound noone else can beat.

Chony

Just ain't no good if the sun shines and you're still inside.
Rascals Rule in sooooo many ways.



------------------
...L

Egos can be tolerated. Ignorance and poor manners are not as easy to overlook.
Just lighten up, and try to fit in.....or please leave.......quietly.

We all try to help each other here .... were not dictators .... we're SHARING info with good intentions. Please don't storm into a happy room and bring your attitude upon us in such a way as to ailienate the members. It serves no purpose.

If you have legit info to share ..... please word your advice so it actually sounds like help. The Don Rickles approach is just so wrong for this special community of friends and musicians.

Well Said Dave...theres nothing more to add!

Scott,

I've been reading this thread with great interest. Personally, I don't believe the JBL's by themselves will support larger venues, however, when combined with a high quality sub, they should be more than adequate. You may also wish to consider using a pair of Barbetta Sona's, which would accomplish the same task, plus provide you with mixers and EQ's on each of the powered speakers.

Finally, I think you should hop in the car in January and join us in Bossier City. That way you'll have the opportunity to hear them all and meet with some of the folks you've communicated with over the years.

Gary

Party!!!! in Bossier City, LA January 7th oh yeah I can't wait!!

Forgeddabouttit!

Donny has a great suggestion Scott. Bossier City is doable from Pensecola. It would be great if you could make it. I didn't get to meet you when we were going to Gulf Shores.

I meant to ask you how bad is Gulf Shores? Some folks here that were going to winter there got their deposits back. Are the Phoenixes still there and operational? We used to stay at Sugar Beach. I wonder if it is still there. I used to love going to Meskeet Charlies in Pensecola. They had a 32 ounce porterhouse steak on the menu that I used to get. You could feel your arteries plug up as you ate it!

Tom