in terms of sound and styles, matching fill ins, touch screen quality, effects section, new features, vocal harmony and multi pads

I spoke recently with a friend who's a moderator on the Korg forum and he said that the PA800 is an excellent keyboard, but he and many others weren't going to give up their PA1X's for it. He did mention that he knew a few who did give their PA1X's up for the PA800.
I know this doesn't help much but trying to figure all of this stuff out is a nightmare. That part is easy to figure out because of all of the swapping of keyboards going on constantly.
I still use my dinosaur Korgi30 and my fans still enjoy my music. I do play many old standards on my Tenor with the help of sequences, which gets a little extra attention.
Boo

hey brickboo, we have a lot in common..I've been using a
Korg is35 for several years and still use it, and am having a rough time trying to find a more current kb with better quality in the sounds, but nothing navigates like the i-series. ( I tried the i30 back then and it was a step up but it had a touchscreen i wasn't comfortable with, and i preferred having the lighter is35 w/speakers.) I also play
Eb sopranino sax with it, but don't use sequences, i just jump in over a pedal bass sound for a couple choruses
here and there. I got a new E60 recently but it's not for me and i'm wondering if the pa800 is..but nowhere can i demo it yet, to my knowledge.

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Miami Mo

Boo,

You said fans with an s. Are you trying to tell us you have more than one? I really thought I was the only one you had. Way to keep that fan base growing. If you played country like our tall buddy in Shreveport you'd have fans like the Beatles.

Tom

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22636

thanks Renig, but i've heard those demos online before, and they sure sound good. however, i was talking about getting a tryout demo the keyboard itself in terms of feel and navigation.

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Miami Mo

the real difficulty in giving an honest answer to this question is that it is very very difficult to get your hands on a PA800 unless you have placed an order to buy one. Virtually zero music shops in my area stock any and there are none on any shop floors in the second largest city in the UK. However i have been looking extensively at the Pa800 as a PA1X owner and i have upgraded my instrument to the new Version 3 for the PA1X. I have also just today downloaded onto my PA1X all the PA800 styles. So my answer to your question now that i have virtually a new keyboard is there is very little difference between the instruments . However there is potentially a big difference depending on how you use the instruments.

let me explain

the PA800 has 64mb of sampling ram which means that the PA800 can handle larger samples than its lder brother . If you are into sampling then this could be a major difference as it means that you now have a wider choice of available commercial samples. The PA1x has only 32mb and that can be quite limiting in terms of purchaseing newer samples.

The PA800 has greater polyphony (128 notes) which means that you can have much deeper layering of sounds without note drop off. If you are into sound creation then this is really important as both he PA1X (after V3 update) and the Pa800 are capable of layering up to 16 separate tones at the same time to create some of the most complex and detail sounds heard on any keyboard. Obviously the PA1X only has 62 notes polyphony and that could be eaten up quite quickly if you used 16 different tones all at once even with the Korgs clever algorithms to reduce note drop out. Obviously the PA800 wont suffer quite as quickly with its 128 note polyphony.

It is hard to tell how many styles and sounds in the PA800 actually use more than 2-4 tones per sound in reality despite its potential to use up to 16.I think the RX piano uses the most and many of those are damper samples,harmonic resonances etc

However in terms of styles, fillins etc the PA1X upgraded and the PA800 are virtually the same.

So the difference between the two instruments could be marginal or quite large depending on how you use the instrument.

From what i understand the vocal harmoniser on the PA800 is a cut down version of the PA1X, the speaker system on the PA800 is a less powered version of the PA1X and the missing sliders on the PA800 means that the instrument is inferior in a live performance situation to the PA1X.

I hope this helps

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 03-04-2007).]

I have 10 sliders on my i30 counting the master slider and I use them often with the 20 or 30 midi files I use. I don't have the knowledge or time to adjust the volumn on the midis and these slider work great.

I can't comprehend a keyboard with two volumn sliders. They must take a lot of adjusting of the midi files to get them to play the same. Sometimes I just have to tone down the drums. It takes a fraction of a second with the slider for the drums.

uh-oh, it's starting to sound like another case of restricted navigation on newer keyboards..they give you a ton more sounds and styles, but are harder to play live than the older ones..i can't believe Korg couldn't understand how great their i-series nav was and didn't leave it alone or improve on it..Drat! and here i was thinking the pa800 wouldn't give me 76 or a great keybed, but at least it would give me everything my is35 gives me plus better sounds and styles..now i have to deal with diminished nav? that's the problem i have w/the e60!

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Miami Mo

keysvocalssax i dont want to kill your interest in the machine before you start. The main thrust of what i am saying is that on paper the machine is realy not a great improvement over the PA1X for ordinary arranger playing use and in reality may be less efficient in terms of real time control in a live performance. However the PA800 is supposed to have a new sound engine that is better than the PA1X (although there is no way you can tell the difference from the demos online) Unless you can get your hands on one, there is no way to tell how the machine actually sounds or performs in a live setting

Thanks for the detailed answer..yep it helps alot

at 48/45 lbs for pa1x/pro + hard carrying case to protect major bucks investment, that's a high price in terms of hernia/back/fatigue for better nav. don't want to raise the weight issue as a spark for debate, there's been more than enough on that, and unnecessary, because it just comes down to a personal choice is all, there's no right or wrong. It's just that I can't possibly consider the pa because I couldn't even handle the genesys pro at 42lbs.+15 lb soft wheeled carrier, and no way to find someone dependable for help.

question remains for me, as for boo w/similar i-series; is there enough live nav on pa800 to justify switch to a better-sounding board from the i-series with great nav that we have done very well with. can't answer until I demo one, or a user can tell me enough about it to convince me it will suffice.

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Miami Mo

I don't want to stir up anything, and maybe it was just my ears, but I didn't think the PA800 sounded AS GOOD as did Boo's keyboard when I heard it last summer.
I am absolutely certain the PA800 SHOULD and WILL sound better, but all I'm saying is that, out of the box, it didn't.
I'm not talking about individual sounds, but rather the overall "liveness" of the keyboard.
My opinion, and that of everyone who heard it while I had it, was that the 800 sounded dull or lifeless, for lack of a better word, compared to what they had been accustomed to hearing from me.
I really hesitate to post this because I'm certain someone will be offended or take it personally, but it's my opinion after doing my best with it for several weeks.
DonM

DonM, that certainly must be part of the reason you almost never see a Korg i-series kb for sale on ebay or sz..not only does nothing compare to them for live nav,
but they sound good. I own 2 is35's, the first one lost the lcd in the screen, and they couldn't repair and were out of parts, so they gave me the 2nd at cost. I can load from one to the other, and I can play gigs on the one with no screen..that's how easy it is to nav..just knowing what numbers on buttons represent.

Very disturbing to hear the pa800 is giving less nav, a lot more sounds/styles/memory/poly, and yet it doesn't blow the old kb's away in terms of overall sound impact. The e60 that i have that I hate the lack of well-designed player controls on sounds so good i find myself playing it for hours at a time. Maybe the pa800 sounds better than you think--you didn't hear Boo a/b the 800 vs his i30, did you? if not, maybe it was just 2 different conditions....

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Miami Mo

I'm sure that in the right hands the PA800 will sound wonderful. It didn't sound wonderful when I played it, and those whose judgment I trust agreed.
DonM

Don,

You got me wanting to do what I almost did a year or two ago. That's getting another i30 for when mine does fall apart.

I still prefer the 8 bar, 12 bar and 16 bar loops of many of the styles that the i30 offers over all of the 4 bar loop keyboards. Especially doing the standards I do. Even some of the R&R styles offer more than 4 bar loops on the i30.

Variety is the spice of life. Ha! Ha!
Boo

Boo,
The good news is that all of the I30 styles work just fine on the G800. You would probably love it. But you have to try it for yourself.
Don

A few SAY they want tons on knobs and sliders on their arrangers, but usually aren't willing to pay the price all these physical controllers add to the cost. I think this is why most arranger manufacturers are hesitant to go in this direction.

For those who ARE the control freaks, if you can't afford the arrangers that DO provide these (at higher price-points), you might take a look at some of the MIDI knob and fader controllers that M-Audio, Novation, Behringer, etc., etc. all make, at very reasonable prices.

They have the advantage of being programmable, so you can set up the parameters that YOU want to control, in the layout that YOU want to see, rather than the manufacturer's idea of what you want.

They can also have the benefit (depending on arranger) of being able to control aspects of the arranger that even the factory don't allow, for instance, playing ANY fill from and to ANY variation, Break/Fill to a footswitch (many of these control surfaces have programmable pedal inputs), Talk On/Off, etc., etc..

It seems that it's mostly the tweak-heads that want this degree of power, so if your arranger doesn't provide enough control, one of these can quickly put you back in charge of your arranger, without adding a fortune to it's cost!

it's a great feeling of security when you have a backup. I keep one in Miami and one up north that i use in summer..don't have to carry the kb back and forth. those i-series were a lot more special than i ever realized..
i'm really appreciating the nav and longer loops now, and i have tweaked my bread and butter sounds to where they are pretty good. i figured the new stuff had to be a lot better, but maybe not--at least for what I do with it..I don't sequence nor sample. the designers seem to be getting away from designing for live improvising musicians, so it's a good idea to hold on to the classics.

i saw some reference on sz a while back to someone who had put out some killer jazz stuff for the i-series, but when i went to the recommended site it was no longer in existence. Anyone have a clue about how to get those files?

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Miami Mo

Diki, for me it's not a question of cost at all, it's a question
of weight of the G70 and pa1x. After all I did buy/sell a $4000 genesys pro that didn't even give me a half-decent OS, but the weight was a problem for me even if it had a good OS. As i understand it, using a controller would be a much lighter alternative, which might make up for the
inconvenience of a separate module. Certainly it would be a pleasure to have my nav the way i'd like it.

But fear and ignorance rule me here, because i have read your suggestion before and others here have said that it entails an awful lot of painstaking midi programming to make it work, and i have no experience doing that. I can't go into a store and just demo a controller, and I have no experience using a module. So i have no way of getting into it so i can feel good about buying a controller and a module, and I guess i just find the whole process of researching and relearning a bit intimidating. Sometimes one needs a mentor to enter into that kind of realm.

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Miami Mo

Mo... I understand about the weight concerns....

These controllers are VERY light weight, so no problem there... I would suggest, at a store that sells the things in your area, you bring in your MIDI information about your arranger, and have a talk with the salesman there. For a fee, he might program up what you want, or show you so you can do it yourself, or suggest a MIDI 'guru' in the area that could be hired for the job.

In all fairness, for what you want to do 'live' (although they are handy for home programming sessions, the tools in your arranger WILL do the job just fine, it's live you really miss the faders, isn't it?!), it's a fairly simple task to program the faders to send volume (or expression), pan, reverb send, chorus send, etc., for each Part channel in your arranger. and Keyboard Parts.

Sys-ex is a bit more complicated, but most arrangers can be controlled fairly extensively without it, especially the Roland's (haven't dug too deep into Yamaha, but I imagine it's roughly the same), so it's no more difficult to learn than the arranger's OS anyway!

Don't pass up the chance to get back the control you want without breaking your back......

The i30 has fill to any variation and many other features that can be controlled by a 5 pedal foot controller.

I like just pushing a number or two to change styles all set up as I set them. I mostly use piano, bass, drums and jazz guitar.

The sax sounds on solo I don't use. However the big band stuff from the factory with saxes, trumpets, trombones and such sound pretty good to me.

I play sax so I don't care much for any of the sax sounds on most any keyboard for soloing.

Diki, you are very right about the controllers. I'm using one with the Midjay and I'm awaiting the release of the new Edirol PCR-800.
They aren't that hard to program. I pretty much have the PCRM-80 the way I want it. The new one will have more controls, more options, etc. Just like arrangers!!
DonM

I guess i will start looking into controller/module. it's hard when you are totally unfamiliar with anything about it..it's a new world. hope it's as exciting as it is intimidating.

thanks for the heads-up, and any and all advice is really appreciated. and Boo, i'm almost exactly on the same page as you re using my is35 as you use your i30.

right now i'm back to one foot in, one foot out on the e60.
I found a new way the HOLD button can be used to short-cut some of the nav headaches..even the pro at Roland hadn't thought of it in his own set-up, but he did give me a couple of insights on how to short-cut the harmony button to a global setting, and I've figured out a new short-cut to have those infernal one-touch buttons operate as global saves for 8 fave sounds..at least i can now put that to some use, rather than as "sound suggestions" for every style for clueless beginners. if i can
get the d-beam repaired or replaced, and the tap tempo
fixed (Diki, it's right on the first time you tap..but if you want to hit it while playing, it's totally a mess..and that also goes for if you tap to start, and change your mind to reset and tap again, it goes to any tempo at random, not the tap-in) maybe it will be a keeper. I can use the expression pedal or the volume knob for fade-outs, i can
stop/start by hand or pull the expression pedal all the way up quickly. the d-beam will just be for bass on/off and I
will dispense with the full accompaniment in/out on-the- fly totally, will just program a couple of full or semi-full accomps into the user bank (guitar/band riff) since i only use those sparingly anyway. Could be a light at the end of this tunnel, because i love the sound and feel and the 76 keys and the weight and the screen and the mixer and the menu and the factory effects ( I have no desire to change any, they seem all perfect..totally opposite of genesys pro where they cheesy over-effected every sound and i had to start from no effect and build my own on each sound)
(on the other hand, i could change my mind again..especially if I try an sd1+ and love it) all else fails,
i'm going to get my head into controllers/modules.

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Miami Mo

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865&ParentId=114

Heres the PCr800 info & video demo

I'm hoping I can use some of those assignable pads as "virutal multipads", or at least drum sounds. No reason I shouldn't be able to do that.
DonM

Awaiting your review for sure Don..

Good Luck

went to the link for the roland controllers. It looks amazing but i have to be honest , i would not have the first clue where to begin with stuff like that. It seems awfully technical. I am still trying to understand the remaining 80% of what my PA1X is capable of and i have had it nearly 18 months !

My sentiments exactly. How to get a clue and how to evaluate and how to get started..never mind deciding on the module and how to use that! occurs to me someone could make some bucks starting a national home tutoring servicefor synths. I'd be first customer.
for synths

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Miami Mo

I just read the owner's manual and followed the instructions on the Edirol PCR M80. It was pretty easy, once it sunk in.
Basically, you set the midi channel on both units. The foot pedals default to sustain and expression, so I didn't set them. Then you find the sounds you want and set the program change on the controller. The program changes only apply to the current bank of sounds selected on the module, so you then can set bank change commands to access other banks of sounds.
You do the same for other commands, such as intro-ending, etc.
Not as hard as it sounds.

DonM

if that's the best controller, what would be the best module for live..for sounds, bass/drums rhythms..etc.

Mo, I don't know if it's best, because I haven't tried a lot of them. Some of them had very bad reviews. George Kaye told me the Behringer wasn't very good. Some of them are too heavy.
I'm familiar with the PCR M80, and the PCR-800 is an upgrade and offers more features, so I'm going there next.
I'm using the Ketron Midjay for module. I think it sounds GREAT, and very live. I'll try to post some songs soon.
DonM

Hurry

took my E60 in for warranty work on d-beam and tap tempo today. hope to have it back soon, they said d-beam
may have just a bad solder connection. hope so.

after playing the E60 for hours, i took my Korg is35 to the
little Italian restaurant gig tuesday night. it was first night
of a probable steady so didn't want to have nav problems, just stay with the familar kb until ready. I gotta admit, i was dragged by the 61 keys, the key feel and the sound of my Korg after the Roland. Just a big letdown, I could nav like a champ but i couldn't get my head into a groove until 2nd set. Was like I had a new kb and trying to adjust.

Carlos Peluzza, a famous timbale player from Lima who has been with the Fania All-Stars and Tito Puente, came
in on last set and played my keys. He sounded good and
he's used to a Triton, so he liked it. so it's not like I was kidding myself about my Korg, it's just that the E60 blows
it away in sound and feel. All the more frustrating that there is so little player control for live gigs. won't go into detail, been there, done that earlier on.

Are there people that can reprogram an OS? there are enough buttons to do all i need, but they are not assigned with a live player in mind. That would be a better alternative to controller/module. No weight problem w/
the E60, has monitor speakers, great sounds/styles/tone edit/mixer/etc..Not sure Midjay will be as good..anyone
want to compare Midjay sounds/styles to say, G70, which
more of you are familiar with--should be similar to E60.



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Miami Mo

There's an English guy named Richard, on the Danish G70 forum, who has written an amazing piece of software to help with batch programming Roland UPGs and UPSs.

I admit that the controls don't always do what you would prefer (but Roland guys will say that about Korg's, and Ketron guys will say that about Yamaha, yada, yada, yada), but it is possible to program the registration to do what you want.

Of course, for guys with huge songlists have a herculean task programming all the registrations. Richard's software (called the G70 Session Manager) allows you to select as many registrations (UPGs) and batch apply destinations for controllers, keyboard modes, reprogram OTSs, re-order Set Lists, many, many things that are tedious to do one at a time.

It is truly revolutionary for the G70. We have quite a few E60/50 members, now, and perhaps he could be persuaded (he charges a nominal fee for the full program, but it is functional without the extras) to reprogram it for the E60/50.

Give it a try......

Diki, I don't really understand a word of it, sorry. I just would like to have all 4 d-beam buttons be for controls,
instead of just one...all 4 one-touch buttons be saved fave sound banks, have a dedicated fade, a dedicated bass/drum-combo-full like the gw7/exr7 and stuff like that.
but i'll contact Richard, if you can tell me how to get to the Danish site..

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Miami Mo

http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/

Roland tend to expect you to have a separate UPG (registration) for each song you do. This is how their Music Assistant (Song Book) works.... a separate entry for each song. When you do it this way, you can set up what you want the D-Beam to do for that particular song (after all, it can only control one parameter at a time, and you wouldn't want to have to reprogram it in the middle of the song!).

Richard's program allows you to select ALL the songs (UPGs) that you want it to do a certain function, and batch apply that parameter. Along with any other changes you don't want to sit and add to hundreds of UPGs...

Diki,
thanks for info, sorry to be away here for 2-3 days. I don't use songs at all, so Richard's program no help to me. I also don't see the advantage for me to sequence so I can play 2-handed. I always play 2-handed, because i use piano/rhodes/organ/guitar/vibes about 90% of the time and only use other sounds as "spices"-using a split w/gtr in LH. I use full keyboard mode, even for the occasions i want to pump my own lh bass, so I don't feel my left hand is just boringly repeating chord patterns that I want to be released from. I'm varying what i do with it. any anomolies that may appear in the chord recognition here and there are mitigated by the fact i mostly use just bass/drum,..i think Roland does a great job w/bass lines.
Anytime i have tried what many arranger players do..have the LH not sound, but just voice chords in shorthand, or even in full- i have felt totally disoriented. some good players have sat in on my setups and they feel exactly the opposite, they can't stand to have the LH sound if that's what is controlling the changes. they say, hey, can you take this out please? for whatever reason, i like and need to hear it sound..it's a different thing I'm doing, I guess, and it fits my musical expression, and sounds good in that context, even though some musicians hearing it find it puzzling because it's not what they are used to hearing.

unlike most, i don't consider myself OMB..even when i'm solo. I think of myself as jazz player/singer who happens to have a nice "little" rhythm section helping him out. To have to play against any preset background sequence, other than the arranger bass/drum loops themselves, is not what i would most enjoy--which is why I'd rather not play any sax when solo except brief interludes against a repeating pattern on the same chord..again as a "spice'-i'm not interested in showcasing my act as a sax act with keyboard omb behind me. hence "keysvocalssax", not the reverse..I stopped taking leader dates on sax when i started on keys in y2k, and only use it in full on rare sideman calls, jam sessions, or when another kb player sits in on my kb rig, or on guitar. this should help explain why it is so critical for me to have as much on-the-fly control as i can, getting controls into song format or user saves won't cut it the same way for me. and using a controller w/ a module means a Midjay..could be great but
big step for me plus I don't know if I would like midjay.
that's why i just wish there were some way Roland or Roland users could offer OS improvements.

I realize my concept is not the majority concept and is liniting-- and certainly self-indulgent, since I'm pretty much out of the loop of commercial dates.
on the other hand, my musical satisfaction is at a higher
level when i do work, and they like what i do, because i know they are enjoying the creative aspect of it, as I am, and not just hearing their favorite tunes done in a competent fashion.

.


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Miami Mo

Mo, I think you just explained why you are unlikely to see the OS "improvements" you require. I think that even you would agree that marketing common sense would dictate that the manufacturers (sp) respond to the many, not the few. Your dilemma seems to be that what you require is a highly customizable OS yet you seem unwilling to get "down and dirty" with the OS. What you probably need is something like a Mediastation along with a "hired gun" programmer to set it up for you. Just a thought.

chas

PS: this is not a put-down; lots of people feel the same way you do.....the problem is, each of you wants something different.

chas,
a highly customizable OS is not what I'm asking for..or need..and a Mediastation is way overkill for me, even if it wasn't too heavy for me to handle. all i'm asking for is some modest features that most mid to upper-range kb's had a few years back, in fact- some of the low-enders had it as well.

Roland has the bass-drum/combo/full buttons on its low-mid-end GW7 and Exr7, but not on E50/60. Some of the new lo-end Yams have sound tailoring knobs now-even though that isn't something I must have. the e50/60
tries to do with 3 pages of menus on one d-beam button replacing what used to be pretty standard: dedicated fade, various part mutes, etc. Hard to understand why 3 d-beam buttons that could be normal controls are now filled with sounds and effects that are pretty much in the normal sound bank areas. there is no place to store a modest amount of fave sounds, except in full user setups.
Most other kb's from lo to hi end have had at least that.

------------------
Miami Mo

Mo, just a question..doesn't the E60 allow you to select your preference tone in each group [piano, guitar etc]?

Early E series [E600] did this as VA series also..

I think you are missing out on the powerful feature, user [Performance] memories...This could make performing easier for you...
You mentioned you don't use/do songs...I believe you were referring to SMF's, but saving song set ups in user memory[Performance]..can be your set up for "live" play..Rhythm, left hand bass, right hand voices , proper effects and levels....
You can name the user memory , generic names ..like Slow Jazz ballad, or Boogie woogie, Waltz, rhumba.., piano concert, etc..

It is not hard to program the performance set ups..Set up what sounds good for you , including D beam, tempos etc...but save it with a name as a user program...You can copy the same settings with minimal changes like rhythm, tempo , voices and maybe another controller for D beam...name it and save to another user program..
After you have done a dozen of these,,I will bet you do dozens more..because it will make performing so much easier..you will only have to think about playing..

I usually set up performances in groups[My G1000 will show a group of 8 on the page], this also gives me ideas of what to play, because of song titles or genre names..

Give it a try..


BTW: Performances can also be used as favorite sounds[voices], including voice edits...You can lock out all the other [key mode, style/song, transpose etc]..

On most Roland boards you can easily and quickly load another Performance memory[192 on the G1000]group...The data is fairly small and loads quickly...I would think all this can be stored in your flash ram..