This is not about any individual so don't come roaring back....unless you think the shoe fits. Occasionally someone will post a tune that may have what some members believe is (or politely describe as) a 'timing' problem. In fact, most of the time it's not a timing problem so much as a rhythm problem. A timing problem is when you and the background tracks don't end up at the same place at the same time. Rhythm, although related, is more difficult to explain. That's because it's more about feeling than exact mathmatical spacing between notes. Most of us can tell who has it and who doesn't. Listening to someone play who doesn't have a strong sense of rhythm is like watching geeks dance....like holding a talent show at a Star Trek convention.

The reason I mention this distinction is because a person can be taught to improve timing but if "you ain't got rhythm", forget it. The other problem with rhythm is that the person who is rhythmically challenged can't hear this deficiency, especially if their 'timing' is passable. I was about to say that this "problem" is less noticable in certain types of music, but upon reflection, that's probably not true either.

Anyone familiar with the studio world knows that there are not only "first call" musicians but "first call" rhythm sections as well. There is a reason for this. Most studio quality musicians not only play in time but also play rhythmicaly but some rhythm units just have that special in-the-pocket groove that is so hard to define...you just know it when you hear it. I'm sure most jazz, rock, and funk players know what I mean.

I don't mean to sound harsh or discouraging, but if you don't have it, there is little chance that you will be successful as a professional. Therefore, if you have career aspirations and nobody is telling you the truth, they could actually be doing you a disservice. Or maybe not.

chas

Great topic. I totally identify with your comments and do not take offense to them. I'm one of those who have always had problems with rhythm (goes back 40 years). During all the years I studied piano and some organ, my instructors always were all over me for timing problems. Fact is at a young age I always seemed to be in a hurry to learn to play the piece. This problem has come back to haunt me time and again. In the last couple of years I've become real aware of this problem and have been making a real effort to correct it. It's not necessarily easy and I for one always have known I don't fall into the class of a natural musician.

What is helping me to correct this problem is that I'm doing some voice work with a singing instructor. By working out songs and having him coach me I'm making progress. I'm playing 4 or 5 gigs per month and knows maybe I would be playing a lot more if I had worked this out years ago. I'm just glad I have a day job otherwise if I depended on music as a full time pro, I'd probably be in the bread line at the local halfway house.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-04-2006).]

One way to help improve one's rhythm is by dancing. Rhythm is felt & often can't be intellectually learned. For example the feel of jazz swing (aka: swung 8th notes?!) cannot be accurately notated in manuscript. You have to feel the groove. That said, classical rhythm typically emphasizes 1 while popular music more often accents the backbeat: 2 & 4. - Scott

Scott, I almost agree with you but there is SOME intellect going on there. Example, I think that I have an excellent (some would say exquisite ) sense of rhythm, yet I struggle with odd meters such as 5/4. I had to learn "take five" by rote, and even after playing it for 25?? years I still have to concentrate, especially soloing. It just doesn't feel natural to me. I suspect that's a combination of poor training and a cultural bias towards (and familiarity with) 4/4 (and 2/4, 3/4, 6/8, etc.

On your other point, if I have to dance to improve my sense of rhythm, I'm finished (I'm guessing Boo, Captain Russ, TonyMads, also, as I don't know any jazz musicians that can dance worth squat ). Anyway, gotta go check on what kind of dance steps will go to Take Five.

chas

Hi Chas: On TAKE FIVE, its' 5/4 'swing' groove may be easier felt by breaking the measure down to:

1-2-3 - 1-2

essentially swing waltz + duple (1-2)

To listen & confirm, click HERE , then scroll down to cut #3. Take Five.


Scott

One of the reasons I think many arranger players have rhythm problems is that few of them ever let the bass and drums be loud enough in contrast to their soloing voice.
There is always a tendency to want to listen to what you are playing, rather than concentrating on the rhythm section, often to the point (from listening to many of our members posted music) of obscuring the rhythm section altogether.

If you play with a real rhythm section, it doesn't matter how loud you play, the drummer and bass player usually have enough 'juice' left to rise up with you, and you never swamp them. You can always hear the drummer (usually TOO well!!), so you seldom lose the groove.

But do the same on an arranger, and your rhythm section just sits there, taking no notice of you..... It's all too easy to swamp them, and there goes your timing reference, and probably the groove.

The way to avoid this takes time, and a recorder of some sort (CD, cassette, built-in sequencer, etc.). Record yourself playing over your usual backing, then step back, clear your ears for a few minutes (listen to some jazz or classical, anything a bit different from what you just played), and then listen to what you just recorded, but here's the important thing - listen to it VERY QUIETLY.

It is much easier to hear when a lead voice is too loud at low volumes - at higher volumes you can still hear the other parts through the lead voice, but lower level listening quickly makes balance problems more noticeable. Now, does what you've recorded sound like the lead voice is a bit too loud, or does it 'sit' in the mix like a record? Does the lead ever obscure the drums a bit?

If so, go back to the registration (UPG or whatever your arranger calls the patch) and dial down the lead voice about 10%, and save (under a different name if you want to keep the original). Now record yourself doing the same song again, and (most importantly) try not to play harder to compensate for the drop in volume. Now listen again (after first clearing your ears for a few minutes) to the new recording, once again at VERY low levels. Is there ever a time when you lose the lead voice 'behind' the accompaniment? If not, dial down the lead voice another 10% and repeat.

Finally, there will come a level that you occasionally lose the lead voice. Now go back up 10% to the previous level and save. Now comes the hard part........ This new, 'correct' level may be 10-30% lower than you are used to, and you may want to hear yourself better, but don't give in to the temptation to play harder, or turn the lead back up. It IS the correct level..... You just have to get used to it.

But......... here's the best part of doing this - I guarantee you will be able to hear the rhythm section MUCH better now during your solos (and even better during the comping) and stand a much lesser chance of losing the groove. Your timing will improve, you will be listening more to the other things going on around you while you solo, and can interact more effectively. Plus your audience will appreciate a more even mix.

Over time, you will get used to hearing the correct amount of solo and comping volumes, and it becomes second nature, and timing problems will become more of a thing of the past.

_____________________________________________________

In fact, this repeated taping, listening and adjusting, then re-taping will help you cure a multitude of sins, from poor timing to bad registration choices, to having too much effects, to non-idiomatic instrument emulation. Just be patient, and focus on one problem at a time, and soon your playing and sound will improve dramatically.......

Charles, you can simply move (dance) to the groove using your your head, arms, and hands & fingers, w/o even having to hit the dance floor.

Scott

THIS WILL HELP THOSE THAT WANT TO BE HELPED:
body movement is an integral part of feeling and playing in rhythm. dancing on a dance floor is not required, but having some part or parts of your body "dance" to the music is. It's something i just can't help doing when listening or playing something rhythmic..but it isn't necessarily natural to everyone, whether it's due to lacking a rhythmic sensibility or being inhibited or cultural I don't know. In any case it will help one's rhythmic feel if they loosen up and employ any part of the body in the process.

"Time" is another thing. Many pianists that have great "feel" or "swing" still lose their sense of "time" when they work a lot of steady solo cocktail piano gigs, and they don't realize it's happening to them..but when they try to play with others it is a mess. The best remedy for this is to practice with drum and/or drum/bass kbd trax. Since I started using arranger kbds 6 yrs ago, my time when I go out to sit in and just sing or play sax, with no practice, is light years better than when I used to practice and gig a lot. My natural time has become integrated with the akb
time, yet there is nothing "mechanical" or "robotic" in it,
which many mistakenly feel will happen when you play
with "machines".

Conversely, I have found that musicians who are uncomfortable when sitting in with me when i'm solo on the akb, and can't find the groove, blame it on "having to play with a machine" when the truth is, the "machine" just exposes their inherent time problems. with a band the other players are always adjusting so they don't realize this. The musicians I know who have great time or want to improve their time always enjoy sitting in with me on akb, and even though they may sometimes waver
from the perfect time of the akb, their open ears bring
them back.

"hearing yourself" is something that sounds easy and
self-evident,but is one of the hardest things to master, and is the hallmark of the best musicians. But when you really learn to do it, it will change your life, if you can
survive the depression of the realization of what you
sounded like before you developed that skill.

One helpful hint to achieve self-hearing that is magic, not only for time, for phrasing ,for coherent ideas, but for timbre and pitch is this: While you play and/or sing, imagine yourself playing and/or singing the next phrase
before you actually execute it. Of course you will overlap, and you will lose concentration until you get it down. Try
this to prove it to yourself: Record yourself playing and/or
singing a familiar tune, and improvise on it for a chorus
or two. Do this in you usual intuitive fashion. Then record
the same tune while pre-imagining yourself playing
and/or singing each phrase as you play.

Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning



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Miami Mo

My honest opinion on this..., if you really want to get your rhythm in check--learn to play the drums, and learn to play "rhythm guitar". Being able to do both of these things has helped me SO MUCH with my piano and keyboard playing.

I truly think that taking the time to learn these two areas outside of keyboarding, and piano playing will make you stronger in the ryhthm department. Once you get a good handle on them, you'll start to pick out rhythm and timing issues in either your own work and others.

Squeak

Sounds like the making of a good song to me.

I got rhythm; I got music; I got my gal;
Who can ask for anything more?

Yep, I think this oughta' work!

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 09-04-2006).]