On my Yamaha PSR2000 (and on the other current model PSR keyboards as well), in 'full keyboard' mode, there are certain 'chord recognition' configurations which trigger inappropriate sounding auto accompaniment bass patterns to play. The chord recognition inappropriately reads certain chord configurations as 'on bass' slash type chords, which results in the auto accompaniment bass part to play just a 'single note' repeatedly. The problem specificly occurs when playing 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversion chords with the left hand, while the right plays melody notes, within an octave of where the left hand chord is played.

Here is a detailed example of the problem:

1) On the PSR2000, PSR9000, or 9000pro, set the keyboard to: 'Full Keyboard' auto accompaniment mode.

2) With your left hand, play a G7 chord (1st inversion): notes from left to right: B2-D3-F3-G3

3) The keyboard's LCD screen will display this as a G7 chord and the auto accompaniment bass part begins playing a G bass pattern, typically root & 5th (G & D)on simpler styles, and a walking bass line based on G, on the more complex styles & variations.

4) Now (while continuing to hold down the 1st inversion G7 chord with your left hand), SLOWLY play (with your right hand) a slow descending scale (dominant scale) beginning with G4: (G4-F4-E4-D4-C4-B3-A3).

5) LISTEN CLOSELY to the auto accompaniment bass pattern being played as you VERY SLOWLY play this descending scale. The chords are recognized (and displayed on the screen) by the arranger as follows:

G4: G7
F4: G7
E4: G7 (13)
D4: G7/B
C4: G7
B3: G7/B
A3: G7 (9)

As you can see (and subsequently hear), when either D4 or B3 are played (with the right hand), the chord is recognized as a slash chord, and the auto-accompaniment bass part just plays a 'single' note (B)repeatedly. All other above notes played trigger the auto-accompaninent bass part to correctly play a G7 bass line. Yamaha's decision (or is it a bug?) to recognize D4 & B3 as 'on bass' slash chords is both inappropriate and unpleasing to the ear in context to the other diatonic notes played. Playing D4 or B3 in the right hand should have been recognized by the arranger as G7. 'On bass' type slash chord recognition should only be reserved for notes played BELOW (not above) the chord played, which the PSR keyboards already do.

The above 'on bass' slash chord problem occurs with ALL OTHER 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion chords as well.

Here's just another example:

C triad (1st inversion): left hand playing (as a chord): E2-G2-C3

Right hand playing a slow descending scale : C4-B3-A3-G3-F3-E3-D3

Chord recognition results:

C4: C
B3: C
A3: Am7
G3: C/E
F3: Eb69/E
E3: C/E
D3: C9

All of the chords recognized as slash chords imho, are not pleasing to the ear, creating a bass line which seems to hop from a pleasing C bass line to a repetitive (disconcerting) E played repeatedly. Playing G3 should be recognized as a C chord, playing F3 should be recognized as Cadd4, and playing E3 should be recognized as a C chord.

I'm really curious if other people have noticed this problem as well. It seems like most people here don't play in full keyboard mode when playing the PSR boards. I'm wondering if one of the reasons might be because of this problem.

George Kaye and others with connections with Yamaha's technical support team or R & D dept: PLEASE forward this post to the appropriate people (at Yamaha) so we can get some feedback from them on what I consider to be a serious 'full keyboard' mode chord recognition flaw. The Technics KN keyboards (in full keyboard mode) don't exibit this problem, so I'm wondering if this glitch was intentional on Yamaha's part, or just an overlooked bug that needs to be corrected. I hope this problem will be looked into right away and corrected in time for the release of the upcoming Yamaha Tyros.

Thanks in advance to anyyone who can help me get this problem looked into (by the appropriate people at Yamaha) and hopefully resolved. I look forward to hearing feedback from you guys.

- Scott

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http://scottyee.com

Scott,

I was able to get the exact same results out of my 9000. I did have to locate a good walking base style before I could notice the problem you have referred to. Rather it is a product of design or not, I do not know. I imagine with all the possible chord variations the program engineers had to deal with, maybe they felt this was the solution. I'm with you though, when you have an active base line moving between different notes, it makes for a very noticable difference when the base line just keeps hitting the same note repeatidly.
Good observation Scott.


Dennis

Split mode (even by assigning both sides to the same sound) WILL NOT accomplish the SAME thing 'full keyboard' mode does. Full keyboard mode allows you to trigger a chord ANYWHERE on the Keyboard: EITHER in the right hand, left hand , or even across TWO hands. For example, in full keyboard mode, you can trigger an F7 chord, with the left hand playing the root (F) and 7th (Eb), while playing the 3rd (A) with the right hand up 2 or 3 octaves. You can't do this in split mode. Full keyboard mode offers MANY more keyboard playing possibilities not possible in split mode and is the prefered choice for pianist type keyboard players.

Hi Scott,
I`m not even going to attempt to give any advice , your knowlage of chord therory and structure are much greater than mine, but I can tell you that I too have had the display show the wrong chord (IMO)
If you try playing a song like "For Once in My LIfe" or "Whiter Shade of Pale" the "Y2K" never displays the actual chords/w-bass note properly.
So I just keep playing the way I always have and just consider the display a "bug of the beast"

O-BTW, I have visited your web-site on several occasions and every time I try to download "Don`t Let the Sun" (mp3) I can`t use it , for some reason it downloads as a "document to large to be opened by simple text"
Is it my "Mac" I can download other mp3`s? Thanks for your help and best of luck with your 2000 but I relay think it`s the "nature of the beast"
jedi

Hi Dennis: I definitely feel if Yamaha doesn't consider it a bug, then it definitely is an issue of BAD (un-musical) design then. Afterall, Yamaha's arranger keyboard competitor, Technics, displays no problems like this in their 'full keyboard' mode recognition table (KN6500/6000/5000 boards), so I'd expect that Yamaha's PSR boards shouldn't either. I can only hope that Yamaha will take a 'serious' look at this and correct what I consider a serious flaw which can be EASILY corrected and implemented in the new Tyros . - Scott

Yes Scott, hold your breath and Yamaha will get right on it.
Then when they get a fix for it, just bundle that thing up and send it to them for a few weeks while they solder in a Flash Rom upgrade.
Actually, if they cared, they could check it out and address it on the Tyros before they ship. I'm betting that since very few people use that mode, they will not give it a second thought.
DonM

If what you say is true, this may be more a case of 'putting the cart before the horse' Possibly the reason few people use 'full keyboard' mode on the Yamaha PSRs is because it just 'doesn't work' properly. I know 'quite a few' professional piano keyboard players (including myself) who play in 'full keyboard' mode exclusively, when playing the Technics KN arranger keyboards . . . Why?! Because it WORKS !

Hey Scott,
Thanks for the grammer correction...
I'z dun't talk soz gud sumtimez.

It's a bug...

Dennis

No, the keyboard of course doesn't & shouldn't need to read 'my' mind, but instead follow a certain set of chord recognition rules set by the manufacterer.

You obviously didn't read what I said, and I 'REPEAT' . . . the Technics brand KN keyboards 'DO' recognize chords appropriately (when playing & soloing, including playing passing tones) in 'full keyboard' mode, so obviously Yamaha could set up their PSR boards to do this in the same way too.



Maybe, but split mode has other limited playing retrictions which I outlined clearly earlier in this thread.

On the Techncis KN keyboards, I did not experience any chord confusion problems (except on rare occasion), while playing a lead line or soloing in full keyboard mode.




Yes the intelligence is based on a set of rule. I say, just change a couple of the chord recognition rules (to match what Technics has already achieved) and the Yamaha's PSR full keyboard mode chord recognition will work fine. The 'bottom line' is that the auto accompaniment harmony & bass lines need to sound appropriate to what you are playing. When I play or solo (in full keyboard mode) on the Technics KN keyboards, the chord recognition triggers apppriate sounding bass lines & accomp harmonies, yet on the PSR keyboards, there is a glitch on just 'a few' of the note configurations.
This is a SIMPLE problem with a SIMPLE solution . . . PERIOD !

Like I said earlier, more people would be playing in 'Full Keyboard' if Yamaha corrected this simple problem.




Your suggestion sounds like just "burying your head in the sand". We obviously disagree completely about this issue. I suspect you may not understand because you don't come from a background as a keyboard piano player, but instead a bass player, and that you primarily play the arranger in 'one finger' mode?

I peformed on the Technics KN5000 professionally for over 2-1/2 years in 'full keyboard' mode achieving excellent sounding auto accompaniment results. I now play the PSR2000 exclusively in split mode because of it's chord recognization problems in full keyboard mode. I've had a lot of experience playing in both split & full keyboard modes so think I'm highly qualifed to state that full keyboard mode playing works well, especially for traditional keyboard players, when the chord recognition table is setup properly (as per Technics KN boards). I rest my case.

Hi,

This is the result with pa80

First example
G4: G7
F4: G7
E4: G7
D4: G7
C4: Bdim (bemol 9) (???)
B4: G7
A4: G7(9)

Second example
C4: C
B4: C
A3: C
G3: C
F3: C11
E3: C
D3: C9