Hi, I'm Markus from Finland.

I'm looking at Arranger Keyboards between Korg PA-50 and T2, and I've been reading old posts here for the last days. I've learned a lot, thank you very much for sharing and discussing everything.

One aspect I'd like to hear more about though is how your keyboards perform live. I'm not interested in sounds and styles, it's all been said. I want to know stuff like:

Can you find buttons and read the display in bad light situations?
Can you easily and fast find and switch between songs/performances, store all settings in advance, and change settings on the fly?
When playing as part of an ensemble, can you easily disable parts of a style, and for example skip a bar of an SMF because the others felt like skipping it?
What is important to you? Did anything ever happen at your 'gigs' that made you appreciate something? (like power outs)
Of the Yamaha/Korg/Roland lines, what is the lowest you would go live with?

Markus,

Much of your success in live situations depends upon how much time you dedicated to learning the operating system of YOUR keyboard. For me, I like the Yamaha PSR and Tyros operating systems, Fran Carango prefers his Roland G-1000, while others will swear by their Korg, Casio, and a host of other keyboards they feel comfortable with while performing.

The secret to success during any live performance, particularly if you have a dancefloor filled to capacity, is the ability to read the audience, make decissions based upon your experiences with that type of audience, then provide them with seamless entertainment. This means dead time between songs cannot exceed more than a few seconds, and you play the music THEY enjoy and react positively to. If you can do this, you'll have more work in the OMB entertainment industry than you can handle. If you cannot, the best keyboard in the world will not earn you a living.

Good luck on your decission,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Thanks Gary

I fully agree. I come from a classical background (accompaning choir, musical and opera, also doing choir arrangements) and I know that experience and professionalism is much more important than the best instrument. I'm considering joining a little dance combo (bass, guitar and voice). The PSR 3000 seems a good value, although does anyone have new information about its replacement? I do have a Yammy PF 500 (I doubt anyone even knows this one, it's not been a success, but I like it) but I wouldn't want to carry it along as well all the time.

I've been using the PSR-3000 since it became available in the U.S., and IMO it is among the best arranger keyboards on the market for ease of operation, navigation of the system during live performances, and overall sound quality. Its versitility is such that you can perform several tasks similtaneously without interupting your performance. The 3000 would be a great assett to any group.

Good Luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Hello Markus
Here is a link to a post about playing on the fly. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/013675.html
Another tip which I have heard from virtually all professional players, is that if you play in a band or group, forget any type of sequences including SMF as they do not work, you must always learn to play live.
Hope this helps

Bill

Hello Bill,
thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that one yet.
About those midi, I once loaded my PF500 with great songs for a live solo performance, but in the end I used none of them. It's just not flexible enough. I'm thinking more in terms of recording a song and later extracting a passage to put on a multipad, things like that.

I know I have to really get to know my intrument. But first I have to buy one. The next music store is 50 miles away, so I want to be prepared when I try those different instruments, so thank you very much for your feedback.

Wow, Bill, they do not work? Hmmm. That seems a stretch. A *huge* percentage of touring acts use sequences. And plenty of one-man bands use midi. To each his own.

As for one-man bands, if everyone could afford a full band of competent musicians who would show up on time and the band would rehearse enough to get great (for today's gig pay), and the one-man band dude could earn at least what he does solo, most all of us would have a full band. As for why most every touring band uses sequences, that's another can of worms.

BTW, 99% of the audience cannot tell the difference. In fact, if you don't sound pretty full, you'll be relegated to coffee houses, playing for free coffee.

------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

I disagree. Midi files are as valid as auto accompaniment and straight keyboard work. I use midi 80-90% of the time. You're not going to be able to use them without practicing with them and editing them first.

The key to playing live, as previously stated, is to know your keyboard and your audience. It might be a good idea to plan a virtual set list and play through it at home as if you were on the job. This will give you an idea of what works and what doesn't - as far as moving from song to song goes. Also, I've always kept a list (kind of like the Yamaha Music Finder) that gives me tempo and style info. Be as prepared as you can be, and then be as good as you can be.

As far as current market keyboards go, they're all good. I have a PSR2000 and find it more than adequate. Do I want something bigger and better? Sure, but this is fine.


[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 11-28-2006).]

Have to agree with this ... more and more 'smaller' combos in casinos are using SMFs or backing tracks ... it's a necessity if you are going to 'sound like the record' which today's yunger audience is looking for, yet still be small enough to be affordable ...
What it takes is PRACTICE !!!

TO MARKUS: I don't know of any arranger kbs that will allow you to just 'skip a bar of an SMF' during real time playing ...

t.




[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-28-2006).]

ooooops .... double post ...I hate when I do that ...
t.




[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-28-2006).]

My comments have come from professional band members, Orchestra players and solo players, (I am a home player) and I always take note of what professional say, so I think you may have misunderstood my post.
If you are a OMB or are just singers guitar players etc, then backing tracks (Of any file type) are fine, as it can give body to the performance.
If however you are in a group where you already have the live backing, then forget sequencing, as it will stand out like a sore thumb. (If you don’t have a drummer then Drum backing is fine)
Here in the UK people Do notice.
Hope this makes it clearer

Bill

Markus

...I have had poor success with trying to use my band members in tandem with mt Tyros. The trouble lies with my rythym section. (Bass/drums) Neither player has come close to cooperating with the output of the Tyros. Its too cluttered, too muddy...urgh...it sounds awful. Both guys are talented players, but they are set in their ways for sure...They've each played in live bands for over 30 years...Ex-Military band guys...but this is too far out of the box for them to work with. I've had good results with adding just my sax player...his parts only change somewhat when the style I use has horns involed.

IF your band is willing to spend the time to rehearse and LISTEN to what's happening in the music...and of course be open to it...I'd suggest you make a good effort to try that route. My guys won't rehearse...not 100% open to the idea in the first place, so...that explains my results.

That said, Since I purchased my first arranger a couple years ago I've owned the Tyros, a PSR-3000 and now a Tyros 2. Of the four of us in the band, only I do this for my living. Solo gigs have replaced upwards of 60% of my band gigs through the last few years...and it'll continue to increase over time. There's lots to be said for the ambience and creativity that comes with performing with a live band-but, there's a lot to be said also for the precision that an arranger offers. The clients love the lower price, while I enjoy the increased take-home pay.


Bill



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 11-28-2006).]

IMHO;
Using midi files for backing is just fine, and most of what is being said I agree with. Here’s that little word again, BUT, Why not give the other side of thw story a thought. Why is playing live good, what does it offer that is good?

This is my story; It is not about the value of using midi files but the value of playing live. After playing live for many years I agreed to play a single singing and using my guitar for background. I knew or felt it might be empty, not enough going, on so I added a drum unit. It did fill the void but it had no character. It did not support my feelings/emotions as I played the song, it went it’s own uninteresting way.

I am guessing that there are certain types of music that hold the tempo without change. And there are other types of music the needs some slight variation, I referred to that as feeling the excitement. As the volume gets louder and the tempo increases ever so slightly so does the excitement of the dancers/audience. I have played songs where the people that were dancing, they lost it, they felt the excitement – The song did not end at the same tempo.

To be free enough to go in any direction the dancers/audience calls for is one good option. To bee free to cut the song short because of an on coming event is another good option –Or to extend the song because for a guest performer –Or to repeat the release because your favorite dancers just showed up, wow, what an option.

Having said all that – Yes, I am using midi files for some backing.
I don’t know how this will go over – I was called to play/help supply music for an up-coming Christmas party. The person who called is one of the Pastors at my church. I was not able to say yes, but I offered him my set of Christmas midi files so that the night would be more of a success.
Music without John being there. Hmmmm.

John C.

Whatever works you you, folks...I DON'T use MIDI files of any kind. I try to avoid using an arranger like the plague, and most enjoy group work...the interaction between musicians which only works live with certain kinds of music (read-jazz) and with players of equal ability.

There is a market for this approach for me and probably for any accomplished player who wants to specialize in this kind of work. About 40% of my jobs are keyboard and drums...20% as a single and 20% group work.

I say, choose your weapon (arrangers or whatever), learn how to play/operate in real time and JUST DO IT!


Good luck!


Russ

Once again, I find myself agreeing with Russ' statements ...
I LOVE and after 26 years of doing so, REALLY MISSplaying with a BAND but there are certain conditions that prevent me from doing so:
1) There is not much demand for a 65yr old (young?) kb player in today's bands;
2) I don't care to try to keep up with some of the music today's bands are playing;
3) There is not much of a market for bands playing the type of music I want to play;
4) etc.
Sooooo, I play as a OMB, except for an occasional duo, and I use on board styles - sometimes full, sometimes reduced to bass, guitar and drums - and SMFs - as produced or with instrument voice changes or deletions - whatever fits the song and the setting ...
Whatever works .....
t.

Hi Bill

I have used my Tyros1/2 many times with other horn players and singers. The thing that will make a big difference is to most of the time knock out all horn parts at least. Sometimes I use just drums and auto bass, other times I add guitar and/or piano, once in awhile strings or something of that nature if it would be effective. But, when it comes to horn backgrounds, I tend to not use them, or only very, very sparingly once in awhile. This takes care of any muddiness, clashing horn riffs with your live players and generally the horn players will like it much better than having the horn section playing. This depends on the players some like it, some kind of, and some just downright hate canned horn sections in the background.

So, my advice to you is, just knock out the horns at least and you can have it stay that way one song after another by going into Functions and setting it to hold rather than reset for your special setting. This usually means turning off the 3 parts farthest to the right.

I'd be curious to hear how that works out for you.

Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

Also there is no need to rehearse using this approach.

I'm playing more OMB gigs and duo-trio gigs with pre-recorded sequences from the Tyros 2. I'm on guitar and vocals. I add a horn player and female vocalist at times. It's been a very positive experience. Half the battle is planning and organization ahead of time. Most of these engagements are receptions, private parties, dinners, etc. with little to no dancing---mainly background ambience music. I've learned to anticipate what people request most and have those tunes ready. Rarely, do we get stumpped. It's been amazing to me the transition from a 5-piece group to a OMB playing the same tunes. Yes, the chemistry of group playing is great when everything clicks. However, the OMB money splits better and there a far less hassles, worries, and the like. I've not had one employer complaint about the sound. Most like the price, the less clutter spread around, the reduced volume, and the amount of space saved in tight set-up quarters.

Well I can tell you what's important from my perspective.

I've been playing with my wife (*heh* and even gigging) for 5 years now in a covers situation (I come from an originals band first 3 piece, then anywhere from 5-7 piece) and have settled into a "routine" (I mean that in a good way) of duo cover work.

I do not have to do OMB stuff.
We do not have to work with groups or any other musos at any time.
I do this and make a great living.

I fully realise the situation might be different here (in Australia) then in other parts of the world.

But to cut my overly long post short - I've found 2 things tend to get us more gigs than we can handle.

1. GREAT VOCAL ABILITY - (singing).
2. PERSONALITY.

People listen to vocals first - I'm sorry but they do, in almost ANY genre I can think of (unless, obviously you're doing Classical or Jazz improv with no vocals) PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR A KNOCK OUT - COMITTED - VOICE.

They ALSO want to hear someone who can speak on the mike - connect with the audience - do the odd joke - show something of themselves - interact with their partner onstage - ANYTHING that keeps the show MOVING - not long gaps (or even short gaps) of silence between songs.

It really is as simple as that.

P.S. Flexibility is probably a close third I should add - be able to play at LEAST a couple of songs from most EVERY genre.

We have 16 gigs this month (which is plenty for us - most of the clubs we play pay quite well and we only need a few gigs a week to be VERY comfortable), granted, it's the silly season, but next year is already almost fully booked until June.

Check out This month....
www.chi-chi.com.au

Actually reading my rather rambling last post I may have not helped answer the original question at the top of this thread, but I guess I wanted to stress that rather than any technical feature on a keyboard, a gig stands or falls on the performer's ability to stay "connected" to the crowd by WHATEVER MEANS, and this usually involves a REAL commitment to the audience and what you're doing, rather than skipping a bar in a sequence or... whatever.

There is one other thing I should have mentioned.

I have realised that above all else (and this has been hinted at in previous posts in this thread I know) just about the MOST important thing I can think of in ANY live situation is:

SONG CHOICE.

The right song(s) for the audience.

No matter how obvious THAT sounds, I continually see other acts not reading their audiences, and I'm continually amazed at the dividends paid when we manage to read our audience right.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I don't even remotely think it is easy to do this kind of job with even the best and most expensive equipment available. You have to know what you are doing, and be good, no, perfect at it.

So it's not always easy to get started in this business. I believe being in the background of a combo, responsible for rythm and some backing harmonies, would be a safe start. I will watch and learn and gain experience.

@Greg:
I'm not confident in my singing, so I wouldn't develop to an OMB either. I agree, the singing voice is very important, and a singer who's not "locked up" behind a keyboard can have much more contact to the audience. Show personality. Do you channel her voice through the keyboard for "vocal harmony" or things like that?

@Tony:
I think you can always "mark" the bar after one that is likely to be skipped in a midi, and if the situation arises, just jump to that mark. Doesn't work "on the fly", though.

As for using midi, I think it all depends on the situation. The size of the band, the music style, the audience, whether it's just "wallpaper" music, etc. But thanks for all your input.

@Scott:
That's the approach I plan to take, knocking out bass and guitar (since that's what they play) just filling in and maybe a little solo line once in a while. I like your input on psrtutorials, thank you very much for sharing.

Markus

When playing with more than just one extra guy, I tend to just use the drums from the arranger, play LH bass, and just let everybody do what they normally do in a real band. If they can't lock to the drums, it's usually because I'm not loud enough in their monitors, but that seldom happens (I try to make the drums as loud as a real drummer onstage, so they don't have to adjust too much!)

If I have a bass player, so much the better. I really like to just use the arranger drums if I can. SO much better than a drum machine, interactive, and I love how 'live' my G70's V-Drum kits sound, they really CAN give you the sense of a real drummer onstage.

Don't let the machines take over your playing. Play as much as you possibly can, and only let the machine do the basics. The more you can change up from night to night, the less bored you and your audience get.

In more established combos, SMFs of just bass and drums can give you a lot of freedom, with markers for repeating sections, and finally free up your left hand for the bender, or other parts. I guess I'm just not a big fan of playing chords with the LH and letting the machine do it all for you.........

Another thing I found using SMFs or even the on-board rhythms with other live musicians, is that the drums and/or bass tracks have to be considerably louder than what they would normally be ... I've had to cut back on some of the accomp instruments, and sometimes even the lead voice I'm playing with my right hand to balance it out ...
t.

Hey Markus.

We both sing (lead or backing) through the mixing desk and simply try to "back each other up" and harmonise as much as we can.

My wife is one of those people who can harmonise straight away with anything and frequently changes her parts mid song (even mid line) to give the impression it's more than one person backing - this is tough of course and we don't sound like twenty people, but you'd be surprised how, with a little ingenuity, you can give the general impression of more than 2 voices at times.

So to answer your question we don't go through the keyboard harmoniser for 2 reasons.

1. I still use my Roland VA-7 (will update soon!) and it doesn't have a realtime vocal eefects harmoniser unit.

2. Even if I DID have a keyboard with it I wouldn't use it because we enjoy the "challenge" of trying to sound more than we are, and, quite frankly, the ones I've heard sound REALLY AWFUL and "synthy" still.

Incidentally we play 95% of our stuff using SMF's either programmed by myself or at least heavily tweaked, edited etc because the audiences these days I've found want the "just like the record" sound, (I mean we do the Black Eyed Peas for example!)

As I've said elsewhere, I think there's quite an art to playing with SMFs to reproduce the sound of the artist you're portraying.

We're singers first, I should point out, and instrumentalists second (my wife plays Elecric Guitar) and it seems that many people on this board are perhaps the opposite of this.

When I use the arranger, it's mainly for Old Time Dancing (Pride of Erins, Gypsy Taps, Quick Steps, Barn Dances etc etc)and that's fun and, frankly, a lot easier than having to keep to the SMF arrangement.

In a funny way, I find using the arranger the "easy way out" in regards to the fact that you can play what you want when you want.

Both ways are good!