I agree this is really splitting hairs.

Anyway, I think we have to take the tempo into consideration too. A particular ppq that is enough at a higher tempo might not be enough at a lower tempo as the resolution of the sequencer drops (in terms of time, not in terms of 1/4 notes) with dropping tempo, but that of the ear stays.

I have read in a book sometime in the past that the resolution of the ear is about 5 milliseconds. The lowest tempo I can achieve on my PA80 is 30 1/4 notes per minute which boils down to 2 seconds between two beats. If we want to have 5 millisecond resolution the ppq should be 400. The actual ppq on the keyboard is 384 which is pretty close. If we want to have 1 millisecond between ticks instead of 5 milliseconds we need 2000 ppq at that tempo (lowest) which is pretty close to PSR2000's ppq. I think they have come up with these numbers with some models in their minds.

Assuming we normally play around 100 1/4 notes per minute, I think 120 ppq is pretty marginal. Depending on the type of the music you play (How much quantization you tolerate..., because strictly speaking it's quantized anyway) and the tempo the inherent quantization might or might not be noticeable.

Another thing we should get into consideration is the latency. At least I have noticed one percussion instrument on my PA80 that sounds late if I put it exactly at the beat. I have to pull it forward in the sequence to get it sound in time. I can also recall working with Roland MC500 (if I remember the model number correctly) back in late 80's that could not keep time tight enough at complicated fill-ins, because it took so much processor time and started to slip.

I think it's sort of a dance between many factors and the easiest is to put them all in a black box, listen to it playing and let the ears decide if it fits your music.

Shiral

[This message has been edited by shiral (edited 06-08-2002).]

if I just record a song in the prs9000 " quick record" ... is this in ppq or is it unquiantized! I'm alittle confused ... but if the average listener can't hear the difference ...it's not a big deal. If I turn quantizing off ... should the prs9000 play back exactly what I play or will the sequencer itself quantize what i record?
Sounds like you guys can answer that question... because I don't know?

there is another reason why these values are chosen - ppqs are chosen to reflect a true division of musical notes. Thus 96, 192, 384 etc are the true perfect ppq values, others are not.

120 is not perfect because a dotted 32nd note does not trigger perfectly between ticks.

96 ppq resolves 128th note triplets and runs out of resolution at 256th notes, maybe this puts it in perspective!

I think I confused you when I said "inherent quantization". It's normally not something we can hear unless the ppq is really low. The quick answer is, if the quantization is off we can not hear a difference between what was played during the recording and what is played back on the sequencer.

The digital equipment live and work in a quantized "world". The quantization is so small that we see/hear it as continuous. In this case, suppose you play at a tempo that plays 1 quarter note a second and the ppq is 1000. Then there are 1000 ticks spread between two adjacent quarter notes (1 second). You can record a note at --let's say-- 100th tick or 101st tick, but a moment between these two ticks is not available for recording. That is what I meant when I said "inherent quantization". Nevertheless, this is so small that the human ear can not notice if it were played at 100th tick or 101st tick; it just sounds like a continuous time line to us.

When you do quantize using a function on the keyboard, we make it coarse. e.g. we dictate a set of rules: e.g. 250th tick is available for a note and then 500th tick is available for the next note, but none between 250th and 500th. If there is note at 240, push it onto 250th (or close to that depending on the other options you have set) and so on. This is what we normally referred to as quantization.

Shiral


[This message has been edited by shiral (edited 06-08-2002).]

So if I understand correctly! If I do a quick record on the prs9000 it will play back exactly what I just played with the "spark" others have referred to!

I used to quantize the drums a few years ago... but never my bass or other instruments because it sounded artifical ... stilted. I guess others are quantising the other instuments so I can see that they need very high ppq! (to avoid the stilted feeling)
So Uncle Dave and I don't quantize the other instruments so we don't have to care how much quantization there is. Is this correct?
P.S If I have a song made in the prs2000 quantized at ppq 1990 ...and then put that midi file in the psr 9000 would it play back exactly the same as on the psr2000? Or would the limitation in psr9000 ppq also effect playback?



[This message has been edited by rgtaa (edited 06-08-2002).]

rgtaa,

According to Scott's early post PSR9000/9000 Pro has either 192 ppq or 480 ppq. If the ppq is around or above 384, I would not worry about it at all. I would not worry about 192 ppq either unless I am going to record/play at really low tempo values like 30 or 40 quarter notes per minute. (Still I can get around that by doubling the tempo value to 60 or 80 and cutting the playing rate by half to compensate). As UD and Don said, if it sounds right to me, I would forget all the numbers and go ahead with the recording.

Regards,
Shiral

OK. I certainly have no trouble at all with 384 ppq as I'm sure it will sufficiently capture all the needed music nuances, but I still think 96 ppq is only marginally acceptable (at best). An important element which can make the difference between a good musician and a great musician is how an indiviual player phrases 'ever so slightly' behind/ahead of the beat, or anticipates or plays a rhythmic accent/groove. That's a crucial part of what gives legendary musicians their signature sound. Unfortunately, when you record at 96 ppq, you can lose this.

According to Denny Starry, the 9000Pro's Song sequencer supports 384ppq, but it's Style Pattern Sequencer only 96 ppq. 96 ppq is a bit disappointing, especially since a primary feature of an arranger keyboard is for its live sounding styles.
Enough said, I stated my case (yet again) .

- Scott

if you like "live" then turn quantizing "off" !

hopefully yamaha hired "professionals" that could keep a beat! when making their styles ... and were not "drinking or drugging too much"!!!!

but seriously, I now understand what you are getting at Scottyee!


[This message has been edited by rgtaa (edited 06-08-2002).]

I totally agree that 96 ppq ON A PC is entirely problematical, depending on a whole host of variables.
However as to the case that our modern KEYBOARD sequencers have somehow been subjectively losing all the sparkle of all our performances - not proven.