I deleted my reply because I changed my mind about what I wanted to say here on this topic.

On a slightly different but related tack…I used to be really uptight when playing in front of a live audience. I came to realise that I was conscious of only the musicians in the audience and was afraid of what they might think. The turning point for me was at a concert when a really dreadful, derivative, heavy metal band had the audience going wild. It made me think about why that was.

I came to the conclusion that the general public are by-and-large totally unmusical. I hadn’t thought that before because it just seems so arrogant. Yet experience since has proved this over and over.

Understanding this allowed me to stop worrying about bum notes and bad timing but concentrate instead on having fun. I’ve found as a result, my music flows much better, has more feeling and I play less mistakes anyway as I’m more relaxed. Hey, and when I do play ‘unusual’ notes people seem to interpret it as being jazzy!

I still demand near perfection when recording and this makes the process painfully slow. I’d love to have the nerve to ‘let go’ in recording as I now do when playing live.

As a musician with a sensitive and critical ear, it still makes me cringe when I hear someone singing out of key, etc. But I also think that actual the soul of the song is what most people hear when listening. I’m constantly surprised at the awful music most listeners will put up with. I guess us fussy people are just a minority which gives hope to those of us who aren’t the most talented

Andy.

Lots of constructive posts right above this one--and lots of creative minds, all of which seem to be in agreement to some degree. That's why I stick around this forum--I'm still learning. I personally always like to read and hear constructive criticism from everyone that takes the time to listen to anything I've posted. And, that criticism is always applied to my performances. It's among the best learning tools we have in the entertainment business. However, when some idiot makes a statement about someone's recording such as "It sucks," no one learns anything and a lot of feathers are ruffled.

The topic of this post was "What are you looking for?" Hopefully, everyone is striving for perfection. And, while this is nearly impossible, perfection is always a worthy goal or anyone in the entertainment business. In the end, there is one person that we all must satisfy--ourselves. It's almost like the guy that walks into the house of ill repute and is not well endowed. When asked by the madam who he expected to please with his somewhat inadequate extremity he smiled and replied, "Me!"

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 11-23-2005).]

I played full time in my 20's. I could sense when I was liked or not, by body language, people leaving in droves, etc. But the most constructive feedback came from a distant cousin who told me I played too "mechanical". It stung at the time, but even after many years I try to remember to not play that way - thanks to someone who relayed it in a positive manner.

Happy Thanksgiving to all........

zuki

I think Don, Gary and Russ have valid points here.

I probably listen to most things posted, not only to listen to the performer but also to what their equipment sounds like and their use of it. You can sometimes find a new way of playing a particular song if you have the same equipment by using a different style, effect or balance etc.

Inevitably, there is a certain percentage of stuff that we dislike, whether it is because the performance, equipment, recording technique or vocal sounds wrong or probably it's just as likely that we would have done things differently ourselves.

I agree that if you think something is good then you say so. However, if you don't think so then you don't say anything unless it is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and the person has specifically asked for it.

Just becuase I don't like something may be just as much down to the fact that Irish Reggae or Hop Hip Handbag music is not to my taste. - I'm sure many people here like jazz including myself but I have to be careful when gigging that if I start to improvise too much people start to wonder "Where the Tune Went" !!!!

So to everyone who records - Keep up the good work. If anyone is not interested then they dont have to download and listen.

Regards - Keith



[This message has been edited by KFingers (edited 11-23-2005).]

Usually it is not just what you say but how you say it.

And that is true not just with giving an opinion about someone's performance on this and other forums, but replying to topics posted hear and communication in life in general.

AMEN!!!!!Direct and to the point....
TR

The first thing that will turn me off to a vocalist is intonation. The style can be great, the arrangement can be great, but if the singing is out of tune, then it grates on the ears. The voice can be great, but if the accompaniment is not so good, (wrong chords, wrong bass notes), the result is the same. I'm a pianist with many years of experience in all types of music and have accompanied many vocalists. The first thing I tell a singer is to work on intonation. Out of tune singing ruins any performance. Even constructive criticism can bruise some egos, but it's necessary to correct any problems one may have. I have listened to a few songs in this forum that had problems, yet the song was praised with no discussion of what may have been wrong. I agree with most of you in this thread that criticism should not be sugared coated. Many years ago when I learning to play jazz, I would go to jam sessions and being young and just learning, I would make many mistakes. Most of the older musicians would take me aside and tell me what I did wrong and how to fix it. That was greatly appreciated by me. An easily bruised ego has to be put aside in order to learn. Later, Ray

Caprain Russ ... "A slippery slope" INDEED ...

There are a number of factors that come into play:
* we all want to be entertainers, and therefore want people to "like us" and what we do;
* while we SAY we want constructive criticism, it is often difficult to take;
* some folks may be critical because they do not care for the particular genre, and do not look deeper into the quality of the performance (I for one would never attempt to comment on hip-hop/rap etc because I can't get past the 'first level');
I never could take to Robert Goulet's voice, but he certainly could sing ... however, I wasn't going to be listening.
* in some instances, the reviewer may not understand what the performer is trying to achieve; ... etc.
AND, while this form (Internet)of communication is very convenient, it does not allow for nuances in the delivery that could change how the criticism is presented and intended. As 'genesys' said "it's not just what you say ...", but sometimes the written word is not interpreted the way it was meant.

Another interesting issue (to me at least) is how third parties will jump in to 'defend' the performer who may be well accepting some valuable constructive criticism, and then the thread takes on a whole other life of its own.

Recently, there have been some demos on this forum which I thought were 'wanting', but others gave glowing praise ... I starting thinking that perhaps something was happening to my ears ! It's like when Sinatra recorded "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" and people bought into it ... I believe he could have recorded a telephone directory and it would have gotten air time ...

If someone asks for constuctive criticism, they should receive it, but as was said earlier, "your voice sucks" might not qualify,even though the statement may be true ... It might be better if we said "Perhaps you should just do instrumentals" ...
BUT, if good constructive criticism is given, any words in opposition to that criticism should also be constructive ...
AND remember, we ALL have our own opinion, which we are intitled to, even if we disagree with DonM, who is ALMOST always right !!! ...

t.




[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-23-2005).]

Thanks Chas,
Yours was one of the few posts here that made people "think". By saying "think" I mean putting constructive thoughts on the table, not just answering a question. Such posts are rare I believe, and that makes them valuable.

I basically agree in most respects with all of the posters in this thread: I see everyone has touched a little aspect of the subject. However what I haven't seen (at least until now), and I would really really really really like to see, is some kind of suggestion on how to establish a universally acceptable method of "judging/critisizing/evaluating" a song, and of course I don't know if any members, experienced or not, (not in number of posts, but in mucisianship) will bother themselves doing that. I feel some of them would like to offer their "knowledge" to others here.

Linda suggested the anonymous "SIMON" account, and this Idea I like very much. Anonymity has some drawbacks, but we may have answer posts like simon1 for the first post, simon2 for the 2nd and so on so we can quarrel among ourselves: "Simon5, I think that the strings are not as bad as you describe, maybe a little reverb would help them", or "I absolutely agree with Simon 10".

This needs courage from the side of the performer, to present a song to a mob of mask-wearing critics, but in the end, and if we cease being "politically correct" for a little while, the performer will get his/her answer/verdict/praise/tomatos and will decide if he/she needs to pay attention to something.

But we have to keep in mind, there is also a thing that we cannot judge here, no matter what.... we can only HEAR the performer here, but not actually SEE him/her playing, the body/face language used, tha aura they project to the audience. All those things can complement a "plain good" performance, and present it in a way that gets the audience hooked, and of course, comes back as customer loyalty/profit/more jobs (gigs if you like). Or the opposite may happen, but nobody here will see it. Nobody will get up from the PC and dance (I think I saw it in a recent post, though) and will not see smiles or frustration on customer's faces. So we cannot judge the "entertainer" side of the performer, only the singing and arrangement. And in that way, our critique will always lack a little.

Anyone here want to be Simon? Yay or Nay?
I would surely participate happily, and of course can accept comments for this post.
Theodore

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-23-2005).]