Hey DanO - If Donny didn't fill out the paperwork from his XD9, can I offer the warrentee to the next buyer? I think we did this on the last one I dumped. Makes sense to honor it as long as the original term of service, right? I mean, it's only been out of the store two weeks. GC took back units from twice that long ! Thanx, in advance pal.

Warranties are not transferable .

I do not work at GC anymore .

dano

I was happy to take the return on 2 Sd1's vs. having to compete with you and Fran selling them.


As a salesperson and now part owner of a business , you have to have some pride in the products you sell .

It upsets me to see someone buy a keyboard and say how much they like it , than to say " I need to dump it" .

Not all of your statements are true . What else to you return after 2 weeks ? The Sd1's were returned within 2 days .
Dan O


[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-16-2002).]

It appears you have just become one of the local merchants that some forum members complain about.
See Scott's recent post... http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/005075.html

That's why I like doing business with Musiciansfriend, Music 123 and a host of other internet stores. They offer a 30 day return no questions asked if you're not completely satisfied with the product. How Ya gonna beat that. Besides, they always gaurantee the best price and free shipping. It sounds better and better each time I say this to myself. If I paid $3000 for something I've never seen or heard and couldn't return it, well if I didn't have a heart attack there's no telling what I'd do.

I'd advise everyone here not to buy anything from anyone who wouldn't offer the same deal as the next guy. I don't care how good they tell you their "SERVICE" is. Wouldn't you expect that 30 day return policy part of the super "SERVICE" they are trying to sell you.

It's hard to compete with the big guys in a mom and pop deal today. If you want to learn something about being competitive, I invite you to come try the Masonry business in Western Colorado I've been doing it for 37 years. Believe me it ain't no picnic. One day Walmart will sell everything on earth. Then watch what will happen to prices. I won't have to worry about it because I won't be here. Ha! Ha!

Silent merchant ,

I value your comments , however Uncle Dave and I have a long relationship .

Scott Yee's post had nothing to do with me or my business . As a matter of fact , I believe some people had good things to say about me . What's your point ?

dano

Dano
I'm with you on this one. Differentiating between a customer who isn't satisfied because of personal tastes and one who finds manufacturer's performance claims untrue is a large part of a retailers subjective call on returns. Returning something after awhile because of preferences and expecting full value and/or warrantee consideration is a bad way to do business. I live with my experiments and mistakes - paying the price as I go.

Mike

Thanks Mike .


------------------
Piano Man's Music City
624 Frederick Rd .
Catonsville Md. 21228
410 747 0200
danosmusic@yahoo.com

The keyboard is only two weeks old for Pete's sake.....it's piss poor business for companies to not honor a warranty on a 2 week old keyboard. Look for any excuse to screw the consumer who shelled out their dollars for an item. What difference does it make who owns the board, it the board that's warrantied not the owner isn't it? Especially considering these Ketrons seem to be having quite a few problems with them.

That to me straight up is a dishonorable way to do business and would certainly cause me to think twice about where I would spend my dollars.

It's a manufacturer's warranty not a retailers store warranty.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-16-2002).]

How about when someone purchases a keyboard as a Christmas gift for someone? Does that mean the warranty is only applicable to the orginal purchaser and not the gift recipient? hmmm . . . xmas is approaching. Uncle Dave? hint hint.

It seem like two different items are being discussed here - manufacturers' warrantee and return for refund - and they are being intermingled in the telepod... like Rundle and the fly. I believe the Ketron warrantee is transferable if the warrantee card has not yet been mailed in.

Glenn

Glenn,
I was addressing the warranty issue myself. If Dan does/did not want to refund the instrument, that is his perogative as a store owner and whatever was agreed to with the original purchaser.

Dan O did state that the warranty was good for the original purchaser only though. So my Q. would be, if the papers have not been sent to Ketron as of yet.....then how would they know who the original purchaser is? That is unless someone who was priveledge to that info was to tell them. Hmmmm? Which is what my original point was, why would the retailer care, it's a factory warranty,
Terry


[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-16-2002).]

I made a lot of purchase groups(12 members each group)of kbds.
All kbds are sold to my music school and sent to the owner with blank warranty card.
No problems with my local dealer. (Yamaha,Roland,Korg and Casio).
Chico

DanO, When I purchased the SD1 from you and found it would not suit me[same night], I attempted to eat my mistake and resale it[Ebay],but after your emailed me and offered to take it back, I returned it to our local Guitar Center for refund[BTW, if I recall, it took about six weeks to get the credit. I even had to get American Express involved]. As for the trade part you are correct, I agreed to sell my E600[Roland] at a fair price,but when the SD1 did not pan out, it made it necessary to hold onto the E600[backup].I'm sorry to hear you are still upset[it has been a year]..There was never any wrongful concept to the deal..I wish you the best with the new store..Fran

Don't buy from anyone who does not offer a 30 day money back guarantee. It's standard practice today and part of having someone buy something on someone else recommendation that can't be bought locally.

Without the 30 day return clause, maybe many things that get sold today to happy customers would not happen, when buying sight unseen.

If you don't care about a 30 day return clause, shop ebay. You can take a chance there and might save some money. I'd rather buy new with a waranty and the thirty day return policy. Why not have your cake and eat it to if the opportunity presents itself.

Woah ! Slow down folks. Don't all gang up on Dano. He's just stating company policy.
Whoever buys the XD9 will fill out the warrentee and send it direct to Ketron. If a problem arises, then I'll just have to ship it wherever I'm told. Technically, DanO should warrant the unit to Donny for the full term ............... so if it means that Donny has to make the request, then that's what'll happen. Our buddy Dan won't leave us out in the cold on a technicality.

He loves this Ketron stuff, but he takes it too personal when others do not share his passion. I only WISH I had that kind of allegience to a product.

So ....... the gauntlet is down, and the challange has been addressed ........... I hope I never have to deal with a service issue in Baltimore though ! There is no room for "sensitive feelings" where warrentees are concerned. It should be cut & dry. It's guarenteed for a year - period, right?

Don't get mad Danny boy, just stay in our corner after the sale too.

If you have a warranty issue with the keyboard , just call Lou in New York and I am certain they will work something out .

When I sell a product to a person , It always makes me upset to find out through a public forum that they are not happy .

I prefer to get a private phone call or email first .


Dan


[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 11-17-2002).]

I just love for a manager or owner to use that phrase on me....because that allows me to then tell them my "customer" policy.

Terry's lecture on "company policies":
Company policies, were not etched into the rocks that Moses brought down with him. nor are they any law or infringement of IRS rules that I am aware of, so that the government will come and close you down.

Simply put they are things that companies make up to cover their backsides and give them a way out of any situation, with their own benefit in mind. So those that are quoting it to me have the option of stictly adhering to it or taking a long view of the situation and doing what is fair for all.

If they choose to strictly adhere to it and I feel it is screwing me then what I tell them is "OK, here's my customer policy, I will never do business with you again and encourage anyone I know to do the same, so enjoy the profit on this item, as it is the last you will ever see from me."

I spent the majority of my life in retail, so I know all the things that customers try to do to screw the retailer. Each case though has to be taken on it's own merits and decided on a case by case basis, rather than a blanket myopic "company policy."
Terry

I just don't GET you sometimes, Dan. This is a tool, not a baby! Why are you SO defensive about this? Who cares if we all love the same stuff? You really need to step back and re-evaluate this allegience to Ketron that overshadows your dedication to your customers. Are you saying that Donny could've returned it to you, but I can't even sell it with the original warrentee? Help me out here .... I'm confused.

What would have been different if Donny called you. You can't tell me you would just "change his mind" for him, and set him straight on the Ketron path again.
I went out on a limb for ya buddy, but I am getting a real negative feeling about the integrity of Piano Man in general. We're pros, and need a little "extra" consideration when buying professional gear. Sometimes, you never know the real deal till you take it out in the trenches. So, c'mon .... lighten up a bit and stop taking this as a personal asasault. Take off the Ketron blinders and look closer at the customer's needs. All I asked was for a little help in moving a product that you favor quite a bit. No need to get all hissy about it. If you won't help .... that's fine too. I just wanted to know where the line was drawn, that's all. With all their faults, and (sometimes)poor sales staff, I'd still rather shop at a GC, where at least the customer's needs are considered in the evnt that the product does not suit the buyer. I'm a little disapointed, my friend. I'm sorry you feel this way.

I thought about what I said and made a change in my post .

If you sell the keyboard and the end user thinks they need warranty coverage , just submit the repair under Donny's name .

A phone call 1st can make a difference .

dano

Thanx, I'll do that. Are we ok?

I really don't begrudge anyone from having a "No return" policy. I just feel that when friends are dealing together, the lines have to be softened up a bit. Sure, business IS business, but when working professsionals buy as often as we do .... we need to have some special considerations. It's more of a professional courtesy than a policy change.

I wasn't demanding that DanO take the kb back. I just wanted the option of selling it with what SHOULD be the original, full guarantee ... since it's only been out of the store for two weeks.

We'll jusy make sure all "legal" paperwork is done with Donny's name, that's all. I think the product itself, should carry the warrentee, not the owner.

Cool move Dan O and it's the right thing to do.
jam on,
Terry

From observing the posts on this BB over the past few years or so, its evident to me that there are some people on here who change the arranger keyboards they use more frequently than they do their own underwear. The way I see it is that these people are abusing the privilege of a 30 day money back guarantee as if its their right, which it isn't. Retail Stores offer these return policies knowing that most people actually research a product thoroughly beforehand, often try it out several times before purchasing it, and most won't return it.

I've seen people utilize these return policies only to be able to use a product for a few weeks on a certain project, gig, performance, etc., knowing that they were going to return it from the get go which is simply wrong. This can only happen so many times before the store decides to implement a shorter return period, or worse yet, no refunds or returns at all. I've seen this happen too many times at music stores I've been to.

When I shop for a product I buy from the store that offers me the best service, selection, a reasonable price, and who are willing to work with me in the event the product I purchased doesn't work for the application I bought it for. For me to expect the store to take an item back, especially if I've returned many things prior, is simply ridiculous. If you aren't sure that the item you are buying will work for you, perhaps you haven't researched it enough or you shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Sure there are unforeseen circumstances that could come up but returning an item one time is one thing, doing it over and over again is another.

I realize my opinion won't settle well with many, but if we expect a retail establishment to stay open and provide us with service, selection, and great pricing, we owe it to them to not abuse something as simple as a a return policy.

[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 11-17-2002).]

Ensnareyou,
N one is asking DanO to take this back. I have no problem selling ice to Eskimos, and selling top line, great sounding arrangers is even EASIER.
My original question was about warrentee transfers, but since you brought it up - it's MY right as a customer to return anything I want, for WAHTEVER reason I want as long as it is within the company's policy. Don't preash about research or commitment ..... retail stores have to expect a certain ammount of returns. It's a fact of doing business. I do agree that using a 30 day return policy as a "weekend FREE rental" is a bit over the edge, but hey - some stores say they just want thge customer to be happy. 30 days. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

In my case - I am perfectly happy and willing to sell this keyboard on my own, and I never expected DanO to take it back. I asked him nicely, if there was a trade consideration, but he declined. That was his right, and we arte still friends. It's really not an issue. You have to ASK for what you want. I asked .... he declined - life goes on.

So, we are at the same place as when I started this new swap-fest. I have a Ketron XD9 that is 2 weeks old and been out on ONE 1hr gig. Anyone interrested? The warrentee will be gaurenteed by Uncle Dave's Music and handled through Bell/Solton in NY. (under Donny's name)

I can be reached at 215-284-1328 or the normal email connections.

Where I live there was no place to aduition the keyboard I bought. I bought it because people who owned it said it had the best Sequencer on earth for an arranger. I wanted to ry it out.

I tried to buy from the local dealer who didn't have one. He wanted to order one for $2195 for me. I bought it over the phone from Schroeders in Arizona for $1695 with a few bucks added for shipping.

Anyone who would pay a local dealer $500 more (for his service) for the same item with a "No Return Policy" buying a piece sight unseen either has more money than brains or is not as smart as I am. Ha! Ha!

I don't change gear every other week. I've owned my keyboard for 2 years now and will keep it until they make an i30 with the Trition sounds.

I may open a store to cater just to UD, Donny and some others here exclusively if I don't have to take returns for 30 days. Ha! Ha!

Ensnareyou,

I agree that those who abuse a 30 day return policy, should then be denied that priveldge and is why I said in my post it needs to be taken on a case by case basis.

Probably the place we differ in opinion is this...no matter how much one researches an item (and I do alot of homework before I buy) until one gets the board or whatever into the studio or on the gig for a week or two and really starts discovering the ins and outs of a piece of gear, one really can't tell if it will work or not for them.

Secondly, with internet sales, the day they quit offering a money back, is the day I quit ordering from the net. To get something mail order without being able to see and play it and then have to eat it if it's junk, is totally unfair and weighted 100% in the businesses favor.

That all being said.....in support of company return policies....yesterday while getting a new piece of gear at GC, I overheard a sonversation between 2 managers. Apparently some clown bought a demo drum kit, knowing it was a demo and got the price break accordingly. Well, he was returning it piece by piece claiming there was stuff wrong with it and getting brand new pieces in exchange. It's dirt bags like this that abuse it for the rest of us who do not go around trying to scam stores.
jam on,
Terry



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-18-2002).]

I find it interesting that people buy homes, cars, boats, RV's, motorcycles, groceries, some jewelry, various other items, some even get married, knowing full well they don't have a 30 day money back guarantee, and yet buying an arranger keyboard you feel its "your right" to be able to return "anything you want" with "no questions asked" and "for any reason", which it simply isn't. I agree it is your right to purchase from a store that will allow you to return the item in the event it wasn't what you expected, but if you think that store will allow you to do this over and over again without recourse is being foolish. Eventually you won't be allowed to do so and it would likely cause the stores policy to change and become a blanket policy ruining it for others because you were so "fickle." I've seen this exact thing happen in my area with my local music stores. Customers abused the return privilege, some used it as a way to get free gear rentals, and eventually that return policy was changed from 30 days to 5 days for refunds and 10 days for exchange. Did that policy change stop me from buying from the local store, absolutely not. They provide me with service, selection, and they treat me very well and know their products. Am I disappointed that those few people who abused the return policy ruined it for others who might actually need to legitimately use it, sure.

I know if I expect the store to stay in business that its up to me to make sure I am buying a product that I want, need, and that will work for me. My local store is very reasonable and I know that if for some unknown reason the product didn't work for me as expected they would take it back. That doesn't mean its my right to play around with it for 30 days only to return it and expect a refund. I've yet to run across a keyboard that was so complex I couldn't figure it out in a matter of hours, let alone days whether or not it sounded as good as I expected or met my needs. For me to say I absolutely need 30 days to know exactly isn't necessary. As always YMMV and greatly so from mine.

Ensnare

"That tank of gas I bought last week didn't quite give me the performance I was expecting from my car, I think I'll go back to my gas station and get a refund on the fuel I have left."

I was at a Home Depot store (I'm on their frequent flyer miles due to building my own house myself) and I was talking with one of the store employees. He mentioned that they had the best "secret" rental program. It seems that a lot of people "buy" a tool, (power or other), get the job done, then return the tool for a full refund!
I was shocked when he mentioned this to me.
When I go to buy "new" things I expect them to be new meaning unused. I purchased my PSR2000 knowing it was the floor "demo" model. I trusted the person who sold it to me, George Kaye, who described it in excellent condition and it was as it was described. As long as the person is honest and deals fairly with others I will frequent their store. I will go to small stores on purpose since I know that sales people or owners and want them to stay in business. I have been known to pay a little more since I know the products and support I will get from them. I do look for bargains but not at the expense of the next person buying an item.
I sense from this discussion that everyone is very fair and has good moral qualities about their business practices. This is outstanding. Keep up the good work. I believe it does pay off in the end.

- Brian

Ensnare,
Hmmmm....you seem to be rather mixing the situation here with dirt bags that abuse store policies. First it actually is our right, if that is the store policy as stated and advertised.

No where in this thread have I seen mention of the fact that any of the involved people have previously abused Dan O's return policy. In this case no one is even trying to return anything, it's about the transfer of warranty on a 2 week old piece of gear.

In my music equip buying history, I have exchanged 1 sound module for another more expensive one.

About some of your other items that you point out......cars, Rv's, motorcycles have lemon laws, grocery stores absolutely will exchange or refund groceries that you have a problem with.

I am not at all in disagreement with you on those that abuse the return policies, but I do not see anyone here in what's been said, that fits that profile IMO.


About the gas analogy......
Now, you're going to extremes as well as being somewhat ridiclious. First they do not offer a money back guarantee at the gas stations as do some of the other businesses we are talking about. Secondly a $20. tank of gas is hardly a comparison to a $2000.00 keyboard 100 times, the price.

If you can listen to a keyboard in a place like GC with 50 other instruments blasting 50 different tunes and hear the patches all well enough, and in an hour or so time frame know absolutely that this is the instrument for you and you would not return or exchange it, even though that is their stated policy....how great for you.
Terry



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-18-2002).]

I told you guys we should have started a pool.

If a keyboard has a 1 year manufacture's warranty it should be honored no matter how many owners it has had during the first year. The same goes true for buying from Synthplanet. The manufacture should guarantee it for the duration of their warrantee regardless of who owns it or where it was purchased. If I buy a Ford that has a 5 year 50000 mile warranty they honor it period, regardless of how many owners it has had or where it was purchased. That is just good business.

The next thing you know is that Yamaha or the other companies won't warrantee their keyboards that are used professionally. They could say that professional use falls outside the realm of normal use. Your homeowners insurance already uses that dodge for professionally used equipment that you keep at home.

I bought my X1 from Don Mason and Bell/Solton honored the remainder of the warranty for me. Their customer service was excellent.

If a store has a 30 day return policy I don't see any reason not to consider that when making a purchase. I would never use that policy as a weekend rental but for something as major as an arranger keyboard I would consider any store that has such a policy to be at an advantage. I've owned my X1 for over two years now and I still am discovering things about it. A simple demo or trial in a store does not work for something as complex and expensive as a top of the line arranger. Most stores don't even have a quiet place where you can sit down with one and really play and listen. Trying to assess an arranger at my nearest Guitar Center is like trying one out in the middle of Wal-Mart. It can't be done on a Saturday morning. I'm thankful that U.D., Donny, DonM, and others try these keyboards first and render their opinions on the forum. They do all the work and I get the benefit. U.D. sell that thing to Don then I can buy it in 9 months.

Tom

There is a difference between abusing the return policy of a store and properly exercising it. I am sure that if the Home Depot finds that having a generous return policy is bad for their business, they will change it. Until they do, it is my right, as well as every one else's to take advantage of it. When I was doing a major project around my home and wanted to buy a cordless drill, I went through 3 drills before settling on my current one. It ended up being a more expensive drill than all of the previous ones, but the first of the bunch where the chuck does not vibrate noticeably with a very fine drill bit. That is something that you can only find out by trying a piece out. According to all the paper research either of those drills should do the job, because none of the drills advertises the product as producing slight chuck vibration, any more than a keyboard is advertised as having not-quite-so-realistic sounds, or being slightly more difficult to use than the competition. That is why the salesman at Home Depot was telling me to buy a drill and try it at home, and if it does not work bring it back. Similarly, it makes sense that a salesman at the GC tells me to buy a product, try it out, and bring it back if it does not work out for me. As long as I buy the product with the intention to keep it, rather than intending to use it and bring it back, I am in compliance with the store's policy.

I think it makes definite sense with something so subjective as a keyboard. With each keyboard there are dozens of factors which make us like or dislike the instrument: key feel, sounds, styles, ease of navigation, ability to store presets, expand the memory contents, etc. The only ones which we can really judge before using an instrument are size and weight - everything else comes as we get our hands onto a product. It only makes sense that a user want to try a product in a real-life situation before knowing if it will work for him or not. That is why stores with generous return policies, such as GC, offer such a stiff competition to the established local stores.

On the other hand, I noticed several of our members from Europe are able to arrange with their dealers to borrow an instrument for several days, and then bring it back, without making a commitment to buy one. It is interesting that the local dealers in Europe can afford to do this, but the ones in the US can not.

As for buying a car, I will usually try to rent for a few days a vehicle like the one I am interested in buying, to get an idea how it drives (or will drive after a few thousand miles). Few of us get married without thoroughly evaluating our prospective spouse for a while (often with at-home trial), and some even take a refund. And as for that tankful of gas, the retailer who sold it to may be liable for a lot more than the price I paid for the twenty gallons: if it is indeed substandard, the dealer better be prepared to pay for diagnostic tests and repairs to my car, besides losing their state license.

Regards

Wow ...... Hooda thunk this post would STILL be going ? Maybe I'll fool you ALL and keep the darn thing! (yeah, THAT'll happen! )

If you still have it after Christmas ( I know the odds probably aren't good on that one ), I might be interested UD. I would at least like to try the XD9 out. Because of financial concerns at this point, my choices for a current model second arranger may be limited to the XD9 or going back to the PSR2000. I absolutely dislike the key feel of the 2000, but if the XD9 doesn't have features I need or the sounds that I want ( coming through an amplified system ), I'd rather go back to the 2k. I liked what I heard on the VA76, but it is still commanding more money than I want to spend for it, and frankly I don't see it being better than a 2k for more than double the price.

AJ

AJ,
The XD9 sound simply mahvelous through any PA I ever tried. I think Donny was more upset with the total difference of the navigation, and less tweaking available because of all the mixer options and separate EQ's on the Yamaha. I think sound-wize, the XD9 was a dfinate winner. I agree with Donny about some of the button places and menu requirements though.
Call me when you need me !