I just wanted to comment on something here that's often brought up on the Zone regarding our keyboards. The main thing we always discuss is how the PIANO sounds are in the keyboards we own. There are the di-hard Yammie fans who swear by them, Ketron Fans, Roland, Fans, and even Korg Fans.
Here's the the thing. What really justifies one piano being better than the other in sound quality considering this is such a "subjective" opinion by all?

A few examples here. First off a Yamaha acoustic piano sounds differernt than a Baldwin. A Baldwin sounds different than a Steinway, and a Steinway doesn't sound like a Kurzweil. Being that these are ALL good name brand acoustic pianos, they ALL sound great. We just all have our preference.

It's the same with our keyboards. Be it a Casio WK 35/3700, Yamaha Tyros/PSR-3000, Korg PA (any model), Ketron SD-1, or Roland G-70. Thing is they ALL sound good and sound like a real piano. Even the low end Casio's now have REALLY good piano samples. Again we just all have different taste in piano sounds.

Squeak

My favorite arranger piano sounds are:
1. Casio WK !!
2. Yamaha Tyros (haven't heard t2)
3. Roland
4. Ketron
5. Korg PA80 (haven't heard the PX
Also haven't heard the NEW GEM.
As you say, it's very subjective.
DonM

Squeak, what I look for in a piano....a good tone in the bottom and mid range[usually where they falter] ..Also the high end has to be crisp without the electronic sound..
As for playability, velocity[touch response] has to change the tone when hit hard...not just get louder[this is the biggest problem with most, and I am not going to name those guys again]..
It also has to have a natural decay....

My favorite piano patch[in an arranger] so far is the Roland E-600..
My favorite in a non arranger is the Roland RD700[new model]..
I haven't heard live the G70[favorable opinions], or the Tyros2[said to be the same as the original Tyros]..

The Casio[I have the WK3000] isn't bad, but I think it is thin....more like a rock piano [brightness].

Fran,

I agree with you.

Roland E-600 Fantastic
Roland VA-76
Roland EXR7s

That's all I care for that I've played/owned.

zuki

I don't really agree.

I, for example, (an avid Yamaha fan), played an old korg last night, and the piano sound was great, in your face, live, and chunky. It wasn't as clean, bright, and 'English-proper' as the Tyros piano, but it was much more alive.

If I were to record a CD, I'd use the Yamaha; if I were to play live, the kord hands down.

- all this from a Tyros owner who is about to order a Tyros 2.

Chony

I had to buy a stage piano for our church a year or so ago. I spent a day trying out the various offerings and bought a Yamaha P200. The Rolands were ok but the Korgs were uniformly nasty and thin (brittle sounding). This was a shame because the Korg pianos generally had better facilities.

I haven't regretted the decision since.

On other keyboards (that weren't specialised pianos), I always prefer the Roland sound - this may be partly due to the improved keyboard action which is always an important consideration when trying to play a piano but not such an issue when playing other sounds.

I also have a Kurzweil and love that piano sound too.

I have never heard a Korg piano sound I liked yet (yes I know it's a mater of personal taste). Even the piano expansion boards don't cut it for me. Again a shame as otherwise I might like a Korg (and I do own other korg keyboards without pianos like the Z1) but I use the piano sounds a lot in my performances and particularly when composing. The poor piano sounds in Korgs therefore puts me off using them and it seems to me that whilst Yamaha lead the field in specialised pianos (they make the acoustic versions too after all) they don't seem to put the same care into their non-pianos such as the PSRs and Tyros sounds.

[This message has been edited by andrewpowell (edited 11-02-2005).]

From my limited experience, the Roland grand piano in the VSti Orchestral is by far the best I've heard/played, (a friend heard me play over the phone and said something like "sh%t, is sounds like a real piano"

better than the WK 3500 which I have tried for maybe half an hour in a shop,

and MILES ahead of a Korg Electric Concert Piano EC 150 a friend has. (the one I was playing in the photo I send here).

I cannot judge the mp3's that i have heard here of other various instruments, nor I am a piano player, but the Roland had even better sound, and more "soul" even than the only REAL piano I have played ( an upright one another friend has).
Can't imagine what a 2 GB Bosendorfer sounds.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-02-2005).]

99% of what I play is piano-centric with no vocals so a great piano sound is of primary importance to me. I look for a nice clear overall tone with a full midrange especially in the soloing area where many piano emulations tend to suck. Also I look for smooth sample transitions across the keyboard.

By far the best piano sound in my collection today is the Steinway B in Colossus. That's probably why I am so keen on trying to integrate softsynths into my live performances. But there's a balance between perfection and practicality and I'm not yet ready to go the lengths it would take to use Colossus on stage... "yet" being the operative word - I haven't ruled it out.

I still rely on the Yamaha PLG150-PF piano expansion card in my 9000 Pro for my live piano sound currently. Not only do I like it but I get a lot of positive comments from other pianists about it. There's very few digital piano sounds I like better, but I am determined to go back to playing an 88 note weighted or grade hammer action keyboard in the near future so the 9000 Pro/PLG150-PF's future with me is limited (although I have considered using the PLG150-PF in an S90 or S90 ES).

The best piano sound and keyboard feel I've experienced lately in a hardware keyboard came from the Casio PX-555. I was highly impressed, especially since it's a fairly lightweight $899 arranger, but the 32 note polyphony killed it as an option for me. I look forward to seeing Casio improve upon this further in the future.

I thought we were talking piano sounds in ARRANGERS, so my answer was my opinion on those that I've heard.
DonM

My Favorite Arranger Piano sounds (outta the box):

1. Technics KN7000
2. Yamaha Tyros
3. Ketron SD1
4. Roland G70 (would've be rated much higher if it weren't for all the added reverb)
5. Korg PA1XPro

Scott

I'd have to say (from what i've played)

1. Roland VA7 / VA76
2. Yamaha Tyros
3. Korg PA80
4. Ketron SD1

Claude

I know this is an Arranger forum but whilst we're on the subject of pianos, has anyone heard/got a Promega piano? Ands if so, what do you think of it?

I haven't heard the top-of-the-line arrangers, but NONE of the mid range keyboards sound like a REAL piano, IMO. Even the PSR3000, does not sound like a REAL piano, IMO. (This is coming from a non piano player).
Star

Scott as a kn player I found your reply interesting ... I haven't tried many other brands, so I can't really comment, but I was interested to know where others may have felt the technics piano sounds rated in comparison ... How would you compare the kn7 to the kn6 ?
t.

I'm with DonM here. There's something about the Casio WK piano. If you just lower the reverb on that preset it sounds really nice. Especially the bottom end. That area of the sample really impressed me. That was my gripe with some of the Yamaha arrangers, even the PSR-2000. I dropped a PSR-550 for the WK-3500 and haven't looked back

The new WK's have a REALLY good piano sample. Anyone heard the basic demo on the Casio UK site?

I too like the Technics piano samples. Out of all the ones listed by members here I think Yamaha would be at the bottom of my list. Roland has some nice samples, and so does Ketron.

Squeak

With options like the Ketron MidJay and programs like OMB I no longer feel limited to all-in-one devices when I think of arrangers. In fact, I don't think manufacturers have left us much choice if we want 88 weighted keys to go with that piano sound in a portable professional arranger.

Not exactly portable, but Wersi make the Giga Piano with 88 Notes and Hammer action keyboard complete with the OAS Expander all in one Piano type cabinet.
The Piano Sound I believe is “The Grand” Giga Sample from Steinberg, link below, unfortunately it is still in German at the moment, but you should get the idea and Babel Fish will do a reasonable translation. I have also included the American site, which unfortunately always seems to be a long way behind the rest of the World.
(Don’t Wersi USA realise what a big market that they have access to)
http://www.wersi.net/html/gigapiano.html http://www.wersimusic.com/pianos1.htm

Bill

Hello Andrew,

I don't think you will find anyone in this forum that has experience with the Promega series instruments. You might try THIS forum. I know there are several Promega owners who post there.

In the meantime, if you have specific questions about the Promega 3, I will be happy to answer them for you.

Best Regards,

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Jim are you getting a Midjay?

Trident, you are right the Roland Orchestral piano is good, but guess what?? The Roland Super Quartet is the best of the Roland soft synths..
Yesterday I tried the Casio WK3700, I couldn't tell any big differences over the WK3000 sounds..I was listening from memory, and did not have a WK3000 to compare at the store..

I did run across a style Jazz Combo3[I think] ..it seemed a little different than Jazz Combo on the WK3000..Very usable..

Jim , I am with you on the lack of mid range in the piano sounds...That is why I liked the Roland E-600 piano..

Guys,[KN guys] I think it is just what we get use to...I don't think the KN7000 piano is at the top of the list...I seem to recall a lack of dynamics with the tone/fullness[not loudness]..

There are many good piano sounds on our keyboards, tone wise, but across the board[range] is when they start telling the short comings..

I don't plan to yet but I do admire it.
I have to fly to some gigs next year and I've always been hesitant to fly with a keyboard... a MidJay in my carry-on would make renting a piano at the site more feasable. I'm going to hold out a bit longer and see if my laptop can cover the same territory, but I'm not adverse to buying a MidJay someday.

It would be cool to see a keyboard version of the MidJay come out. Add a great piano soundset and a 76 or 88 note graded-hammer action keyboard, beef up the polyphony and keep the size & weight to a minimum... I'd buy two.

Super Quartet.. I really like it. Was about my favorite piano sound until I got Plugsound's Keyboards module. I like 'em both though. Nothing on any hardware I have or have played comes close.

AJ

Not sure if you realise but the soft synths you mention actually play on hardware not just software, and in operation are no different to Arranger Keyboards.
The Reason you notice the difference is because normally the sound processing cards in high-end computers tend to be of superior quality. All the sounds produced by modern Arranger Keyboards are done in software, but unlike computers they are stored in Rom. (The latest instruments however now come with or have the option to fit a hard drive)
The main exceptions to this are companies like Wersi, Korg (Oasis) and Lionstracs which are computers with all the keyboards and controls built in, which is why as well as there own voices, they can use a combination of Akai samples, Giga Samples, VST Plug-in etc.
When it comes down to the final analysis however, no matter how the sound is produced, if you don’t like the sound of it, then you are never going to be satisfied.
So just use whatever you enjoy and enjoy yourself.

Bill



[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 11-04-2005).]

To my inexperienced ears, the Super Quartet pianos were almost "clink-klonk", $5 a dozen, compared to the Orchestral one. But there was only one piano in Orchestral.

A friend of mine, a piano player, (hers is the "real" upright piano I mention in my previous post), heard an mp3 of a midi file I had (St James Infirmary) done with the Orchestral piano, and wet herself.

But the guitars on Super Quartet...ahh those guitars....they were AWESOME.

For a pretty good comparison of most of the software and hardware pianos (no arrangers, but you can post yours there if you feel up to it), try this site;
http://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.html

Follow the link for Digital Piano Shoot-out.

They provide the MIDI file to play through your keyboard, so you can sit and compare.

Personally, the G70's The Grand X patch (from the FantomX) provides the best arranger piano I've heard. I've got a K2500 with the piano daughterboard in, and while it's VERY good, the G70 GrandX patch is warmer, has greater dynamic range and, due to the G70's VERY low latency and killer action, a much better sense of 'connectedness' to the sound.

I'm well aware of the differences and similarities between software and hardwaremodules Abacus and how sample rom storage works. BTW, when I talk of hardware, I'm thinking Romplers and arrangers. I don't really think to include hardware samplers or things like the Lionstation, if only because I don't use them and really have little interest in them.

Trident, we all recognize that sound is subjective, but I just like the SQ pianos and guitars. I have Orchestral too and I still prefer SQs pianos. It all depends what you prefer. I might not want to use a "Rock Piano" in an orchestral setting, and perhaps I wouldn't want to use a Classicl Grand in a blues tune, but both have their places.

I also like the SQ guitars, but I like the pianos, guitars, and drums even better from the Plugsound series of modules. I also recognize that the high quality sample sets that FLR has likely exceed even what a locked in module like Plugsound can do.

The best guitar emulation for realism I've used to date comes from Musiclabs "real guitar", although I don' care for all of the patches in it, some are very good. What makes it outshine things like "megaVoices" are that the articulations ( fret noises, picks, etc ) can be finely tuned / adjusted to suit your playing style.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-04-2005).]

Actually I bought a high-end laptop recently and like many of them it's sound processing kinda sucked. But a Creative Labs Audigy Z2 Laptop soundcard sells for under $75 and has 24bit/96k sound processing which is superior to just about any hardware workstation or arranger. That did the trick. I've been doing some recording comparisons and the noise floor is much lower when I use softsynths than when I use my Yamaha Motif ES8 (even using mLan) or my 9000 Pro.

The other factor is that the samples used in hardware keyboards are compressed into small amounts of wave ROM whereas the newer breed of softsynths allow disk-streaming of much larger samples than hardware synths can hold.

Personally I don't think any arranger keyboard has a realistic grand piano, the G-70 is my favorite (at least if it has the exact same piano sound as my Fantom XR), But still not good enough.
I've played the Promega series and it has the most realistic piano sound of all hardware keyboards (not softsynths), although I think that the upper range of the Steinway piano on the Promega sounds a bit weak (sounds too thin), I almost bought one, but I went for a PA1X instead(Not a digital piano, I know, but it sounded soo good ), maybe I'll end up buying one anyway, still want a stage piano .
If you really want a superb piano sound, you should look at gigasampler and kontakt instruments, they generally sound much better than any hardware keyboard, my personal favorite is the Virtual Grand Piano by Art Vista .

Greetz ,
Marcel

the best piano sound playing on a keyboard ?
I am from origin a piano player , but was never satisfied about that sound on all my keyboards in the past [ technics, roland] and at this moment de yamaha 9000 pro
there is ONE solution [ I did] to buy a yamaha P90 stage piano and make a connection between that instrument and your keyboard . [see connection schema on this forum in 2005 under my name "guillermo" ]
it is really perfect !
guillermo

I can relate with you........playing piano or any KB for that matter is a very subjective thing to the player.....its somthing that ONLY YOU ALONE can decide on for Your needs.....we are all different and you should not listen to anyone but instead go try it YOURSELF & BUY what YOU need for YOUR situiations musicaly......its fine to discuss, get opinions, etc ....but in the end its you that has to play it....
"one man's junk is another man's treasure" senario comes to mind.... I wish you luck with your new KB .....Make some beautiul music with it !

Hi,
tend to think it's a matter of taste and what you get used to.
Had to swap my yammi baby grand for a digital piano years ago. At the time the clavinova's sounded the best to my ears.

Over the years I've gotten used to the Yamaha piano sound.
Piano wise, I prefer my current YamahaCLP170 to my ex Technics piano. There again I preffered the piano sound on kn7000 to the 9000pro & Va7 . Never overly fond of Korg piano sounds, but there again the last korg arranger I had (i2) dated back to the mid 90's.
Must admit I haven't heard casio keyboards,
so I can't comment, but moneywise they seem a real bargain.

best wishes
Rikki

Piano presets on arranger keyboards are a joke. They do an ok job when camouflaged within backing tracks, but play it bare and they fall apart. Play a real acoustic piano and then play the sampled version - the difference is readily audible.

I have compared the piano preset on these three top arrangers:

Yamaha Tyros 2
Korg Pa1Xpro
Roland G70

None have a satisfactory piano sound. Of these three arrangers, the best piano preset is the Grand Piano X (without reverb) - the first preset on the Roland G70. The next preset, the Stereo Grand is washed in reverb - very unnatural. So, if all you care is the best natural grand piano sound on an arranger, go pay $3,500 and get yourself a Roland G70.

The Yamaha Tyros 2 takes a distant 2nd place followed very closely by the Korg Pa1Xpro in 3rd place. I have not heard the SD1 or the ProMEGA and cannot comment on them.

For better quality piano sounds you would have to move up to the Roland KR series or the Yamaha Clavinova series. For a really good piano sound, try the new Yamaha CLP-280 or the CVP-309GP ($14,000). They both have the natural wood keyboard mechanism with interlocking levers and weights. Good action with a great sound. Still not the real thing. To get that you would have to move up to a Yamaha Disklavier Mark IV ($35,000 plus).

The Grand Piano sound on the Yamaha CVP-309GP was my reference for arranger pianos till I heard the Korg OASYS. You must reboot the OASYS to load in the half gig piano sample. This is the finest piano sample I have heard on a keyboard that comes closest to a Steinway. The 88 key Korg OASYS ($8,000) is my new reference. I hope I could buy that some day!

Having said that, nothing compares to actually playing a real acoustic grand. Even between acoustic grands there are characteristic tonal differences amongst a Steinway Model D, a Yamaha C7 or a Mason Hamlin. You can tell a Yamaha C7 by its brash and brilliance. The Mason Hamlin will have that extra deep and rich set of overtones. These are trademark sounds that one immediately picks up. Both sound different than the unmistakable sound of a Steinway.

After all, it boils down to simple user preference. It is a personal thing.

The Bosendorfer & Steinway D pianos on my flr2006 software based arranger system sound very close to the real deal and the cost is somewhere between.....$200 & $300.

My computer and samplers are sunk costs and should not be included in the decision making process....Economics 101.

I hope it always works out for me!!!

I'm toying with getting an Alesis Nanopiano or Kurzweil MicroPiano for piano sounds - thoughts please!

Let the truth be known.....I love honest accessments....Thanx for the copmparisons.

The Kurzweil Micropiano is a permanent part of my gear and if you can find one then I would recommend it. It has many useful sounds and the acoustic piano is warm and pretty much spot-on. There have been times that I would be stuck playing someone's digital piano so I would always take the Micropiano with me and usually wound up using it. I can't compare the Micropiano to the Nanopiano but the legendary Kurzweil piano sound will always be a personal fav.

Micro Piano





[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-08-2005).]

Thanks folks. I figured the Kurzweil might be the more accomplished unit due to their general reputation for pianos. There are very few around here in the UK however so I might end up with a nanopiano anyway!

I have found a UK magazine review of the nano which is pretty upbeat but I haven't tracked down anything similar for the Kurzweil. I have found user reviews of both of these units but as ever they veer from adulation to desparation.

I suppose like all other audio it's a very subjective matter but if I go for the piano module option then I may well have to buy without audition via mail.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Esh:
... a MidJay in my carry-on would make renting a piano at the site more feasable. I'm going to hold out a bit longer and see if my laptop can cover the same territory, but I'm not adverse to buying a MidJay someday.

QUOTE]

I hope you will share how you 'cover ... the (Midjay) territory' with your laptop. Sounds very interesting if it's not too technical an ordeal.
Ciao,
Jerry

By the way,
Squeak, how is it gong with the new house? Studio ready?

Trident,
The house is coming along great and so is the studio. I've decided to replace all the drywall in that room and re-insulate, plus put new carpeting down. Kind of a mess at the moment I'm still up in the air about what boards I'm going to get. I was going to get the Alesis Fusion Synth and a good arranger. However the OS is questionable on the new Fusion and I've read some horror stories about it. As far as arranger...., not sure. Possibly Tyros 1. The only board I'm sure of at the moment is upgrading my WK-3500 to the WK-3700.

Owning a home is great! It has its minor fixes here and there. Of course to be expected with a house over 40 years old. The only thing I fear is the heating bill this winter (my state is listed as one of the highest in the US in natural gas prices).

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-10-2005).]

Squeak, If you are replacing the drywall and re-insulate to insulate for sound (not for heat insulation) then I suggest you leave a 1 inch space bewteen the studs and a wall (the studs should be free standing, not against a wall). Found this out the hard way.
Sound travels well through solid objects , poorly though insulation and air.
Starkeeper

Starkeeper,
I'm insulating for heat reasons. The room I'm using is in a finished basment. Two of the four walls have concrete block behind them It's nice and quiet in that room. I will probably buy some type of outer wall insulation though for studio use.

Squeak

Squeak, take steps to make sure your concrete block wall is waterproof..Coat it with Thermoseal or another top grade coat..even if it appears dry..
You do not want moisture to accumulate behind a closed/finished wall.

BTW, Dan, don't forget to wire your studio walls while you can,,maybe two separate circuits...one for lights and stuff, the other for isolated recording gear..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-10-2005).]

Fran,
Thanks for the advice. Actually the block is water tight. They did a really good job at sealing the block before they finished the basement.

It's amazing too. You look at my house from the front it just looks like a little house, but when you go inside you'll find the thing has 2000 sqare feet of living space. The finished basement really makes the difference. Large eat-in kitchen, Living room, Dining room, 2 Bed Rooms, and a full bath on the first floor, and 2 Bedroom, family room with woodburning fireplace, laundry/utility room, and full bathroom in the basement. Plus an addition on the side of the house with a 1/2 bath

Actually Fran my neighborhood sometimes reminds me of Levittown. The entire subdivision was built in the early 60's. It reminds me of Primrose Lane in Levittown.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-10-2005).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-10-2005).]

It is good to hear the house is satisfactory for you Squeak. And God, it is HUGE!!!!!
As my girlfriend usually says..."This is a vey spacious house, but who's going to clean it?"
Trident

To return this thread to somewhere near where it came from...........

I think that many players don't make the distinction between PLAYING a real piano and HEARING it played. This is important, especially in the light of using an arranger keyboard and comparing built-in piano sounds.

There are many VERY subtle nuances in a piano's sound and touch that are rarely heard by anybody other than the pianist himself, especially in a combo situation, or anything other than rapt attention in a great concert hall. These minutiae often cause us to spend way more money than we need for a given function, and obsess over details that few, if any, of our audience can discern at all.

If money is no object (and someone else is humping these behemoths!) by all means, go for it! But be prepared to admit that most of your audience can't tell the difference..........


BTW........ Go to Roland's website and listen to demos of the SRX-11 Ultimate Piano expansion board
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=13&subcatid=55&prodid=SRX%2D11

This can be added to the G70 (which already has a fine piano in it)......... I challenge anyone to find a better piano sound in a portable arranger!

I can agree with that in part Diki, because key feel and aftertouch and similar things aside, your still using a keyboard to generate the notes.

Where there is a big difference is for those of us trying to get fairly close to other instruments, like Guitar, saxes, etc. Even the best samples won't always get you very close, because the dynamics of playing a keyboad are so radically different than those of playing a stringed instrument or for reeds, for example.

That's where it may ( or may not be ) worth it to spend and get the latest stuff, because the design techniques continue to improve and there has been a move toward mixing modeling technology with higher quality multisamples. There have been very nice strides made in some areas recently and you can get a lot closer now ( Real Guitar for example ) than even a couple of years ago. Still, for reeds, tenor sax for example, I don't thnk anyone has quite figured out how to best the old VL technology from Yamaha yet, but I'm sure at some point someone will.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-11-2005).]