Actually the post title should have said: EQ:How much do you need to change IF at all from place to place?

And if you need to change it what are the biggest changes. What kind of room requires what?

Or do you find you set it up one way and leave it alone?

As long as we're talking about sound, what about speaker placement? I know there are different ways for different reasons.

For example, it appears in Gary Diamonds "before" pic that his speakers are in front of him. Wow, that seems like that would have been a tough time hearing that way.

I see The Pro in a recent pic placed his Motion Sound directly behind him. I am wondering how that works out. If the volume that is needed out on the floor would blast the player away?

Also I keep thinking the guys that seem to need built in speakers. I'm thinking their PA speakers placed in the right place would do it. I'll bet they've tried it. I would love to hear their ideas on this one.

So in a nutshell, just wondering about how things can be made to sound best to the player and the audience.

Does anybody not use speaker stands.

Just wondering.

Best
Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 10-04-2003).]

Hi Scott,

Loooong time ago, when I was playing organ through a Leslie 760 Speaker, it was positioned right behind me. (sounded perfect for me and the audience) In that setup we were using separate PA for vocals in front of us. (monitor speakers on the floor)

Now while using the SD1 keyboard, 2 Mackie SRM450's (on stands) and a Sub-speaker :
The 450's are positioned at the left and right side of my singer and me. (Not in front, not behind) We use the same two SRM's as PA-speakers AND monitor......

The sub-low is right in the middle of us on the floor of course and I use it as 'table'for the (Samsonite) case containing
Voiceworks and mixing console..

To build up our setup takes only 5-10 minutes. The is no need to use/change EQ's because the Mackie's sound great in all environments.

I expect the guys that use Motion Sound systems use this only for keyboard/organ amplification and NOT the vocals etc. ?

Roel

Hi Scot, I'm siting in a Holiday Inn, in Lake Havasu City Arz. writting this. I gotta say, this forum is addicting.

My equipment: 2 JBL 15'eons, 2 JBL 10'eons
Speaker stands, Mackie mixer, Mini Disk player, Studio Voclizer. What I use depends on the job and the needs.
I use tone balance (EQ) witn my Mackie mixer only--The settings depend on the room I'm playing in. In the beginning of the evening the room is normally colder, this means a brighter sound, I adjust. Later on, the room as it becomes warmer, the sound becomes muddy, I adjust.

I have always used my speakers on each side towards rear. They pointed slightly towards the middle so I can hear my voice and instrument. Bass sounds travel equally in any direction, high sounds do not, they're very much like a water hose, go they in the direction you point them. If they are not pointed in my direction, I hear only the deep tones--NG.
I am now using the internal speakers in my KN7000, thanks to Scottee Yee, now my speaker placement can be put where they are most effective.
Before using the internal speakers, I feel that I struggled to hear my voice and get a good balance.

IMHO---Cheers, John C.

Some adjustment to the room e.q. is sometimes necessary. Yesterday I played a nursing home at 2:30 which had tile floors and glass windows all around. Last night I played a carpeted lounge at the country club. The nursing home required less high-end e.q. The cc needed the bass AND highs pumped up in order for the sound to project since there was not much hard surfaces to bounce the sound.
You have to use your ears.
For small jobs where high volume isn't necessary, I try to position the mains where I can hear them. When it's necessary to pump large volumes of music, it's best to be behind the mains and use some sort of monitors, either the keyboard speakers, earbuds, or a seperate monitor system.
DonM

Glass walls, tiled floors, vaulted ceilings bounce sound back and forth all over a room. Not only do you have to adjust EQ, but, in many cases the reverb. Some rooms have built in reverb and need no help from your amp.
Eddie

Monitoring from internal speakers has become addicting, and as such, made the decision for me, as to where I place the mains. If I cannot hear well...nothinhg goes right, so a monitor is paramount. As long as I hear the product, the main speakers can go where they are most effective.
( How DID the Beatles do it??? Especially with all the screaming Must've made for a Hard Day's listening ! )

As for EQ - you have to be aware of changes from room to room. My new Drive Rack PA processor has memory locations that I have set up for different types of rooms and that gives me a starting point that I can work with. For smaller jobs where I use minimal equipment, the Master Graphic in the PRS21k comes in handy. I rarely make adjustments in the course of a performance unless the capacity changes or the volume increases sharply. Mostly, I adjust at the beginning and leave it at that.

The best advice i can give anyone about is EQ this:
Less is better. If you need to adjust, try CUTTING frequencys first. You get the same result from a midrange cut than you do with a high and low end boost. That way the headroom stays high, and the signal is less noisy. Adding highs induces hissssssssss...
Before you make that little smile shape in the graphic EQ....thry bringing the middle sliders DOWN a bit and make the shape that way. It's a better approach that boosting the powerful low end, and the cutting high end. Many sound systems are damaged by improper EQ usage, so be careful. An EQ can ask for up to 15DB MORE of power from an amp, and you may not have that kind of power or headroom to spare. That's where harmful distortion comes in and takes the life out of your mix. Use EQ with great care, and as sparingly as you can to achive the desired result.

Much of the above I agree with, however, as you can see from the rig photos posted, my speakers are now on either side and a couple feet behind me. This makes for great monitoring, something I didn't have with the old system unless I hauled along my 12-inch monitor speaker.

Now, I hear everything the audience hears, and I rarely have to change the settings for the environment, that is unless I hit one of those rooms that is similar to playing in a high-school gymnasium. Under those circumstances, sounds bounce around like a ping-pong ball, therefore, I usually bring up the bass, bring down the high and mid range sounds, and hope for the best. A lot of the nursing home and retirement center jobs present this problem.

As for the 2000's onboard EQ, I essentially set that up like a smiley face and it does a wonderful job at most venues. On the Barbettas, the mid and high EQ settings are both set at the half-way setting, while the low is set at two-thirds, which eliminates any possibility of vocal feedback, even when I walk directly in front of the speaker just a foot away.

Good Luck,

Gary

Well it helps that I enjoy hearing myself! Actually my situation is different from many because I play instrumental music only, and my audiences usually expect me to play at a level that is comfortable for them to be able to talk to each other over. Even when they pick up and get to dancing, I really don't play as loud as others acts typically (but I can). Also, since I don't sing then feedback isn't a problem. And finally where and how I use the KP-200s is actually how it is recommended to be used by the manufacturer. So using the KP-200s behind me works out great for me but your mileage may vary.

In some cases I use my pair of JBL EONs G2 10" when space is tight but the speaker placement is still the same: behind me and pointing towards my ears. In large outdoor gigs I use the 10's sitting on their matching subs for the front speakers and the KP-200s behind me as a monitor. I avoid speaker stands indoors - I believe they tend to point the sound into the audiences face, whereas I prefer a more ambient approach and like the speakers to point more towards the ceiling and the sound bounce down when possible.

I have EQ settings programmed into my 9000 Pro for either the JBL or the Motion Sound speaker setups. I then tweak slightly to accomodate the room.

Hi John C

Are you vacationing or performing? I have a "snowbird" aunt and uncle in Lake Havasu.

The Pro: Since I have two JBL EON 10G2's I was particularly interested in your answer. Isn't the sound and volumeyou get with those Eons essentially the same as the Motion Sound?

Ok, I'm at work right now, talk to you all later.

Scott Langholff

[Are you vacationing or performing? I have a "snowbird" aunt and uncle in Lake Havasu.

Scott, I'm on vacation. I have not found speakers I like better than the Eon 10's
The sound is good. But, I can't push them too much. As good as the bass response is, it needs help when things get loud.

I love the look of two speakers, on stands, on rither side of me.

I'm still thinking of adding a bass woofer, (did I spell that right?) Then, the Eon 10's
could carry mids and highs with great clarity--sound good--gotta try it.

Take care, John C.

John,

Take a close look at the Barbetta Sona 32C's. They're probably about the same weight as your current speakers, (36.5 pounds), but they're 15-inchers with lots of bass, mid and high range. www.barbetta.com

Good Luck,

Gary

Gary

I know the JBL 15's weigh 46 lbs.

I like the idea of 36 lbs speakers. I also like the price on the Eon Power 15's for $399 apiece.

Here's a good question. I see a lot of the guys that have the JBL Eon 15G2's only turn them up about 20- 25%. So, what if one uses the Eon Power 15's turned up a little more. Shouldn't they really sound about the same if not exactly the same?

OR, what about me using the two 10s and have one Power 15, G152, or Barbetta 32c? I wonder how that would work with Yamahas digital effects that go between two speakers to get a good sound? Or maybe one or two bass type amps with a 15?

I suppose in the end, if I wanted the best sound for bigger rooms with louder music two Power 15's, 15G2's or Barbetta 32c's would give the better sound.

Scott

Scott,

A very wise man (Uncle Dave or Donny Pesce) once said "If you want good bass, you've gotta' move lots of air." That person was right on the money. I've tried lots of speakers ranging from high-quality 10-inch all the way up to custom-made 20's. They all sounded good, but the best bass can only come from the larger speakers because of the distance the cone travels. The Barbettas were about $650 each, and when I'm using just one, I plug both keyboard output plugs into two different channels of the Barbetta's mixer and the results are excellent. Talked with DNJ this morning and he's loving life doing the smaller jobs with a single Barbetta and says everyone loves the sound just as much as when he was lugging lots of equipment around. While 46 pounds don't seem like much to lift, when you're putting that much weight on a speaker stand, it sure gets heavy--at least it does at my age.

Good luck with whatever you decide to go with,

Gary

I've had the original eons(10s AND 15s) and I now use the G2 Tens, and I can tell you - the G2 is more than just a volume improvement. The tone is much better, the bass is excellent (although for really pumping dance bottom, you NEED a sub)and the size/weight ratio is fantastic.
The eon15s are cheap because the new ones are such an improvement. They are well worth $399, but if you can swing it - the G2s will perform better.

Uncle Dave [(although for really pumping dance bottom, you NEED a sub)and the size/weight ratio is fantastic.]

I presume what you mean by that is if you really want a kickin' bass you need to use the big, heavy suckers??

But here you must be referring to a disco/rock crowd??

Scott

Actually, if I decide to go with 15's, I really do prefer the Barbetta's because of weight and shape.

As long as its not a booming bass, which I will not tolerate. If I can get a nice tight bass, then I think over the long haul they are the best choice.

What about this idea that Gary was talking about, using one speaker. I thought plugging L and R into one amp still cancelled out some important digital effects?

If not maybe, I could use my two Eon 10's, with one Barbetta to start with with my new Tyros.

Yep, I did it. Got it a couple weeks ago, and have been refraining from giving any opinions. And I must say I am liking more and more.

When I have time I'll give some of my impressions of it, and also since I have a gig coming up soon that I want to use it on, I think I will have to try and shorten my learning curve regarding the things that are a bit different from the PSR2000 and post some questions. Actually the EQ thing was the 1st installment.

Best

Scott Langholff

Hey Scott, I've had mine all of about two weeks too. And like you I'm liking it more and more.

I also wanted to mention Scott that I ditched the Road Ready Case in favor of a Soft Case. I found that after taking my Tyros on the road in that Road Ready Case that it was just too heavy. I stated it was around 40 lbs. 'empty' and with the Tyros "in" it I was looking at roughly 67 lbs. It wasn't so bad when using the castors and rolling it along but when it came to actually lifting it in and out of my vehicle and up stairs, etc., it just didn't suit me. So I sprung for an Ace KKP9 which is on order from Guitar Center. It's a Soft Case/w wheels. Here is some info about it and a picture in case you're still debating on a carrying Case for your Tyros Scott:

Ace KKP9KB Keyboard Porters W/Wheels
NEW & IMPROVED DESIGN!

Added features:


Heavy Duty Plastic Handle
1" Thick Foam Padding on Lid for Better Protection of Keys and Knobs
Rugged In Line Skate Wheels
Additional Pockets for Accessories Including an Expanded Pocket for Power Supplies and Sustain Pedals
Great New Look!
Plus - all the great features that have made the Kaces Keyboard Porter one of our best-selling products:

* Soft Velour Interior Lining
* Solid Steel Rivets and Screws
* Heavy, Rigid Padding Throughout
* Comfortable, Quilted Grip Handles
* Tough, Water-Resistant Ballistic Nylon
* Inside Support Bracing


If anybody has any first hand experience with the Ace Keyboard Case line especially the KKP9 I would appreciate your thoughts and comments about it/them.

I have it on order and it won't be in for 1 to 3 weeks so any info about it from Users will be helpful. Questions like: Does it last? Is it layed out nicely? Is the padding sufficient? Are the wheels rugged and solidly built? I would rather have a Hard Case but weight is the biggest concern. My Tyros deserves better I know but I don't really see any super light weight quality Hard Cases around selling at a 'reasonable' price and obtainable within a few days. Special Order Cases from a factory can take many weeks to months before you actually recieve them. But if there is one that can be readily obtained; I can return the Ace Case and get a Hard Case if it meets my criteria that I mentioned.

PS: Gigging is the main reason I would want it ASAP. 1 to 3 weeks is already a stretch. Knowing Guitar Center (La Mesa, CA) I should have the Ace in 'less' than a week.

Best regards,
Mike

Hi Mike

Holy Cow! At that kind of weight you could have been packin' a KN7000 with room to spare!!

I just ordered a KKP9. Actually I won it on ebay. Brand new total with shipping $59.98!!
These retail for $200 and most places sell them for about $140 plus tax or shipping.
And guess what? Check out the link below. I talked to Ray at Mattys Music and he said if I was outbid to call them because they had more.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2562840616&category=41403

Or on the other hand check this out.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/007356.html

I was going to get one of those hard cases, but when I saw the Kaces porter on ebay, I knew nobody was going to bid except for me. Maybe later if I want a hard case, I think I'd get one of theirs because I have seen no better deal out there.

I also have the KKP7 that I use for my PSR2000. Nicely built and sturdy. Best case I had seen for the 2000.

Scott Yee has both of these Kaces cases. (echo?). It was at his suggestion I got the one for my PSR and also the Tyros. (I can say it, I got a Tyros wooooooooow!)

Another reason I went with the Kaces case, is the handle is very comfortable in your hand, giving really no stain which I have found can be quite important, especially before the job.
The only thing is the speaker holder and music rack holder won't fit in the KKP9. But, now I see there is some kind of bracket available that that shouldn't be an issue. I have to find out where to get those. Although, I may use the music rack, no way will I get that little speaker set-up to play out with. The only way I would ever consider anything like that is if I really thought I wanted one,and then only if it was the two top speakers only, with no sub-woofer. Otherwise, for me anyway, I can just take one or two of my JBL Eon 10G2's for that. Right now I'm using them as main and monitor. Should be fine unless I start playing in a big place, with a lot of people, where a lot of volume is needed, then I'll will need to check into the 15's.


Best
Scott Langholff


[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 10-05-2003).]

Scott

Thanks for posting the link to Matys Music on e-Bay. That is a great price. I printed out the page and I will take it with me when I go to Guitar Center to see if they will match the price. If they don't, well; number one, their not backing their stated policy of price matching and number two, I could simply not accept it and get a full refund. Then I will scurry back to e-Bay and see if Matys Music is still offering the KKP9. Actually I will see if Matys Music is still offering them BEFORE - if and when - I get the refund from Guitar Center. Just to play it safe. I would hate to return it and then find out Matys Music doesn't have any more KKP9's. Thanks again Scott.

Best regards,
Mike

Hi Mike

Just curious. How much did Guitar Center want for the case?

Best

Scott Langholff

Just to drag us back to the original subject, I rarely change EQ much other than to adjust the volume of the bass amp but tend to need to adjust reverb mix for different venues.

Hi Scott, This past New Year I used my Eon 10's on stands on iether side of me, and one Eon G2 15' behind me as far as I could.
The Eon G2 was adjusted to heavy bass and very little treble.

The Eon G2 added enough bottom, and suported the mid's and high's---I am still inyerested in a woofer!
Chers, John C.

Scott: To answer your question, no - but that needs explaining. I found that to get the most out of the EON's requires a preamp, like a mixer. I don't normally use a mixer though... mostly I just plug the 9000 Pro straight into the EON inputs when I use them - so I use the EON's primarily for soft-volume-gigs where I know space will be tight. I recently used them in a dinner club where my back was to the wall, which would not work well for the KP-200s, so I put an EON on either side of me on the floor and tilted towards me for a nice low-volume sound.

On paper the EON's should put out more volume than the KP-200s and they might if I used a mixer/preamp with them. But the KP-200s is a beast and has the added benefit of the spatial enhancer which spreads the sound field out. Also the overall cabinet space of the KP-200s seems larger than the combined EON's IMHO and that may give the KP-200s more perceived power. Whatever it is, the KP-200s seems louder and punchier than the EON's to me, but that's subjective and probably depends on how both systems are actually used.

The coolest aspect for me is that my system is scalable:

Lo-power: (2) EON 10's
Medium: KP-200s
High: KP-200s + (2) EON 10's + (2) EON Subs

and in the high-power situation the KP-200s would act as both the stage monitor and the mixer/preamp to give the EON's the signal strength to get the maximum performance out of them. Also I can get a quasi-surround-sound effect by using the high-power option.

They want $99 for the KKP9.

Musiciansfriend.com which is their affiliate is asking $119 for the KKP9.

Best regards,
Mike

Hi The Pro

So the mixer is giving a boost in power that the Yamaha onboard mixer won't deliver?

Should I decide to go that route for that reason I presume one of those Behringer mixers at or under $100 should do the same thing?

Thanx
Scott Langholff

Scott...

I'm sensing a little bit of frustration... too many choices! Anybody else here remember the good old days when the only sound choice was good sound or bad sound? And if you wanted good sound you looked no further than the Shure VocalMaster!

Hi Glenn

I remember the days when I played a Hammond M3 (spinet version of B3) and at first used a Leslie, and later used a Fender Bass amp. Of course in those days an organist or keyboard player pretty much used a bass amp. Before the keyboard amps came out. As far as the PA, that was the other guys job, I didn't want to mess with all those knobs. haha.

I used a Rotoverb Leslie simulator which sounded great. Still have it as a matter of fact. Hmmmm, come to think of it I think I'll sell it.

Best
Scott Langholff

Hi Mike

Mike quote:[They want $99 for the KKP9.

Musiciansfriend.com which is their affiliate is asking $119 for the KKP9.]

Says alot about Musiciansfriend free shipping? haha.

Best
Scott Langholff

Yes to both questions.

Since you guys are talking abpout case. How can you compare this case made by Pro Tec to one made by Kaces? I'm also shopping for a case.

Dan

Both look good to me. I have the Kaces and it sure beats the 30lb hardshell roadcase I was dragging around.
Eddie

That Protech case looks good. I checked into them but didn't find any with the right dimensions unless I got one that was oversized.

When I picked a case I first checked out the forums to see who was using what and what they had to say about it.

Then I picked the one that had the snuggest fit inside and the smallest dimensions on the outside (taking into account how big your car is). I also wanted the very lightest case I could find. Price too of course.

In the case of the Tyros, the Kaces KKP9 was the one that fit the bill.

Yamaha really goofed with the cases for the Tyros IMHO. The hardshell case is way too big . They have a place to put the speakers. But this makes it way heavier and too long. Too much money also. Even their soft case is about 55" long. Too long for my cars back seat or trunk.

Best
Scott Langholff

Hey Mike

Just wondering what ever happened with the case. I see nobody bid on the KKP9.

Scott

Scott,
Instead of using a speaker stand I put wheels on my motion sound. If you put larger in front and smaller in back, it angles the amp up for better projection. Also the obvious, the amp rolls in and out rather than having to carry it.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html