I'd have to ask Joe because I haven't tried this yet, but... you could convert the patches for the styles in his software to correspond to your Trinity and I think... you can save those changes. The hardest thing about doing that or even the way I do it in Style Updater is that each instrument track for each variation has it's own set of patch and controller instructions. For an 8 voice style with up to 15 variations counting fill ins, endings, intros, etc.. well.. when ya do the math it works out to 120 changes and of course without the shortcuts Michael's program gives me, if I have to rewrite each CC and patch into the file = 360. Whew... I can actually convert all the patches in a style in his program in a mater of 2 or 3 minutes.

Hmm... I wonder if there is a way to add a "freeze" function that would allow me change the patches once and then the software would ignore any further CC0, CC32, and patch messages ? What do you think about this idea Joe ?

Of course I can do this now with the Motif and the PA80 from within their own Operating systems, but not every software synth allows for this. The "lowly" Casio MZ2000 had a function that let me call up or recall any instrument / mixer setup I wanted, no matter what the style. I could also switch styles and use the freeze function on it to keep the instruments the same.

AJ

I was hoping that all the non-GM devices would have retired by now, but it seems there is still work to be done regarding this.

If there where a lot of IDF files available for all kinds of synths, we could use that. But I couldn't find any so we might as well start from scratch. Then we can not only redirect from patch to patch but also from bank/patch to bank/patch. If we connect some tool at the MIDI-out port that stores all C0 and C32 messages that are sent. Then when a patch comes along it first looks up the what C0 and C32 have been sent on this channel then looks up the translation in the instrument definition table. And then it sends the complete translated bank select C0, C32 and Patch.

It would be like a MIDI Mapper with bank select capabilties. You can define generic patch changes that will translate a patch number in any bank to a new bank/patch or translate detailed bank/patches to bank/patches.

Maybe such a tool already exists?

It would be a lot of work though to define all the patches in all the banks. But you could of course start with the ones you actually need in the styles you are using.

JM

Wow!!! That was deep JM... Cool, I love all the tech talk stuff. Blows my mind but sounds so interesting.
You know, I think there is an IDF for the korg trinity and Korg I30 for use with cakewalk. I dont have it, but if I find them, would they help?

Peace,
MusiKman

The files you refer to are cakewalk .ins files, and they are widely available for many synths. Unfortunately, they aren't the same as an .idf file. Herein lies the biggest problem for me. Each software manufacturer uses his / her own proprietary format for a particular piece of software, so while I've been fortunate to find Motif and PA80 files already available for Sonar, I've had to make new ones up for nearly every other software I have. Jammer pro uses a different format, BIAB still another, N track's sequencer another, etc etc..
I've made entire patch lists for Jammer and BIAB for both of my keyboards, and since I was able to edit them in notepad, things were a little easier. Still it gets tedious. I cut it down a lot in the Style Updater program. I wish there was a standard, such as the way midi is supposed to work. Of course Yamaha has put it's own spin on the midi "standard" by using patch numbers 1-128 for GM as opposed to the standard 0-127.

AJ

AJ, I understand there is a GM bank in the Motiv and if it is bank 0 there should be no problem in OMB if you select GM. If the GM bank is not bank 0 then I could make that a user defineable parameter.

Are there stll any synths in production that don't have a GM bank?

Are there any other files besides IDF that are used for patch/bank reassignments? I thought the cakewalk INS files where just for adding descriptions to patch/banks.

I did some experimenting with the IDF. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The Multimedia/MIDI configurations tools now shows a long list of virtual devices attached to my MIDI out. I can't remove them because there is no function for that.

The freeze function sounds strange to me. If you have a trumpet sound in channel 15 then it will stay that way in the next style. While, maybe it should be a guitar?

JM

Joe,

The Motif does have a GM bank, and it is bank 0, but the actual patch numbers themselves are setup from 1-128 as opposed to the standard 0-127. That's why it doesn't recognize the drums on channel 10. If you send a "0", no matter which bank or channel you use, the Motif always reverts to the GM acoustic piano. Also this is a problem lets say if I am supposed to get a gm acoustic bass sound coming from the style. The standard GM uses patch #32. Since the Motif is "off" by one, I get guitar harmonics with patch #32 ( normally patch 31 on standard GM ).

You're right about the freeze function in a lot of respects. Some yamaha styles do change patches from variation to variation, but with the problems of matching patches, once I set up the patches in my module to correspond to the style, I usually ignore this and just keep the patch the same anyway.
Even though it doesn't allow for an "authentic' replication of the style, it usually sounds good in spite of it. The other cool thing about the MZ2k freeze is that I could take the instrument setup from a jazz fusion style for example and quickly apply it to a funk style.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-11-2003).]

AJ,

The Motiv must accepts patch changes 0-127 (or hexadecimal 00-7F). In MIDI there is a strict distinction between databytes and statusbytes. Databytes are always 0-127, statusbytes are always 128-255. 128 would be the statusbyte for note-off. A lot of synths specify their patches and notenumbers in the manuals as 1-128 but that's just the difference of computer language (0-127) and human language (1-128). Computers call the first 0, humans call the first 1. If the guitar harmonics is 32 on a scale of 1-128 then that is hexadecimal value 1F and that is the correct GM patchnumber for guitar harmonics. Wether you call this 32 on a scale of 1-128 or 31 on a scale of 0-127 or XXXII in roman numbers, it will stil be hexadecimal value 1F. In OMB and most other software the notation is 0-127 so just use any GM patch lists that goes 0-127 and use that numbers if your editing for any GM bank including the one on your Motive.

So what I'm trying to say is that if you play GM midi files or when you play styles with OMB in GM mode, it should sound allright on your Motiv GM bank. If it doesn't there must be some other problem.

JM

My understanding of the hexidecimal system as it applies to midi is minimal at best. I'm quite sure you are right Joe, but in the end, it still doesn't work right for whatever reason on the Motif, and no matter what I do I can't get the drum sound right.

It isn't that big of a deal for tyhis user anyway, because I'm not particularly interested in using the GM sounds of the Motif. Some of them are very good (GM Ac and el pianos are excellent ), many others are not. ( GM guitars / reeds / organs are among the worst ). If I'm not able to make an instrument file that will correspond to the preset Motif voices, I'm better off going my original route and just altering the styles themselves. In this manner, I never have to adjust anything again once I've altered the style.. just load it up and play, whether it be OMB or a Yamaha arranger controlling the Motif. This is the only solution I can see that will work in real time ( quickly ) anyway in order to avoid the GM patches.

I use several user voices too. In the end I don't need to converted a lot of Yamaha styles. I use a small amount in real time, and I rarely use them for finished compositions, preferring to make my own backing tracks. I do use them sometimes just to start an idea though, then go back and replace the parts later on. This is where OMB can be most useful to me. I can quickly set down different progressions and build from there.

AJ


AJ

Jos,

I registered OneMan Band recently, and I'm interesting in testing out the beta version as well. Could you send it to me?

Thanks.

Charlie T.

Sorry, I should have checked your website first.

By the way, in following this thread, I see a lot of people responding to Frank R.'s comments, but I don't see the posts that are being referred to. Is there some filter on the BB?