Hello Friends, I would like to know if any of you may know or have previous experience as to what are the main differences between other arranger programs versus My stand alone Korg I30 arranger.
Other than the fact that on the I30 I have dedicated sliders and buttons for fills, variations etc, I would like to know if any of the PC arranger programs sound, or are as professional as the I30 or yamahas for that matter.
Why I want to know this? because Im thinking of someday giving my I30 to my son, and Maybe get the Triton Studio. But I know that the TS doesnt have arranger built in, and I thought, I have a PC and if I can program my arrangements on the PC connected to the Triton, or (Trinity for now), I may be able to make some good sounding songs. I dont want to make myself fake illusions of what is possible with the PC arranger program I really want to know what are their limitations other than the fact that you cant take it with you to the gigs. I for one, dont do gigs so I dont mind not having a keyboard for arranger purposes. I hope I made some kind of sense and realy thank you guys for all the help and attention.

Peace to all..

MusiKman

Frank Rosenthal might be one of the most knowledgeable folks here on this one, but I dabble a lot with software too, so I'll share what I have learned.

There are at least 3 programs I know of that will play the Yamaha style ( .sty ) files in real time( BTW, the Yamaha .sty, is not the same format as the .sty files associated with Korg arrangers or the program band in a Box ) . The three programs are One Man band, Live styler, and Real Time style performer. I use none of these myself. Instead I use Yamaha XG works software for this task. You cannot enter the style variations or chord changes in real time, but I have arrangers to do this for me. What it does do is allow me to step enter chords and variations of any Yamaha style or other style converted to yamaha sff ( .sty ) format. It also is useful for editing the parameters of my xg software module and the the voices from the plug in modules on my Yamaha Motif.

There are also a few arranger type software programs out there. For my money the two best are Jammer Pro and Band in a Box. Band in a box ( BIAB ) is a bit more like an arranger in that it uses prerecorded midi data inside of it's own styles, but in that respect it is a little limited if you want to be creative and stray from styles that don;t vary. Jammer pro uses algorithims for it's styles that can be fully or partially modified to suit your tastes ( more along the order of the way a Korg karma works vs an arranger ) . Jammer pro might be harder though for the user that has little or no background in putting together musical structures from scratch. Although it does come with pre made styles, they are not it's strength vs BIAB. The fact that they can be quickly modified to suit the user and can be made as simple or complex as the user would like is really it's strength.

There are other programs as well that do similar things, such as RMCA, Hi Play, etc.
There is also a program called Jazz sequencer that is great for making complex drum beats. The Midi Wizard allows you to make your own patterns as one would in the pattern sequencer of the Yamaha Motif workstation.

Is it doable on a computer vs an arranger ?You bet, and for me an arranger can sometimes be rather limited for composing and constructing original music vs some of the programs I have and have mentioned here. More often than not I like to play most of my parts in real time, layering track on track , but... these programs usually give me a great starting point and scratch pad for ideas, particularly Jammer Pro. In fact, although my midi drumming skills have improved, I still can't play some of the pieces that Jammer ( and to a lesser extent Jazz sequencer ) has made for me.


AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-26-2003).]

Frank,
I think the main reason that hardware wins this battle is because of "overall ease." There is no way a performer that sets up and tears down for each show will opt for a bulky, sensitive, clumsy approach, just to get a slight advantage in sonic quality. Now, granted the "slight" comment is an opinion, and I'm sure many will differ, but as a performer who relies on many setups - there will never be a justification (for me) to bring a completely PC driven rig to work. It's simply not the best way to access the features we need the most.

Fill-in's need to be at our fingertips, sounds need to be accessed at a split second's notice, and rhythms need instant access with plenty of variety. All this needs to be portable, roadworthy and aesthetically pleasing to the eye for stage appearances.

I still hate the look of music stands on stage with a solo performer ...... I'd really hate having a large PC monitor between me and my audience.

I have no doubt that your soft synth sounds are top notch, but in a performer's world of road use and modifications ...... I'll take the hardware route anyday.Home use may be a completely different story, but I applaud your efforts in "pioneering" this new technology ! Maybe someday ..... we'll all be playin' the soft way !

Hello Guys, thank you so much for the awsome input of ideas.
Basically, I understand that some folks love the stand alone arranger synth because of the overall use, but in my thread, basically all I want to know is the different programs out there that will do what Im doing now on my Korg I30 arranger.
Why, not because I dont love arranger keyboards, but because Im thinking of handing down mine to my kid to get him to love music. And, also because I dont do any gigs at all. So the portability issue is not an issue here at all. So please dont make it an issue. I just want your honest opinion and experience, and Im so great full for that.
I dont want to spend so much money on a certain software only to find out that it doesnt do what I need it to do.
Thats why I come to my friends here to ask.

Bluesplayer, Thanks for your input. That is the kind of info that is so useful;I really appreciate that. Im really good at making the melodies and all background tracks, but when I comes to making the Bass track or drum track thats where I suffer.
Sometimes I have some really cool songs I want to make but I cant transfer that song into the sequencer. I try and try and by the time I see that it doesnt work out, I end up losing all my inspiration.
Thats why I love the arranger keyboard, because it makes my inpiration flow. But sometimes once the inspiration flows I need to improvise on some of the stuff laid down by the arranger since it becomes too repetitious. I know you know what I mean. SO thats where I get in trouble becuase, even though I know how to play the Drums and base, its really hard to transfer that knowledge to the sequencer by playing the keys.
Frank, thanks for you advice also. I really appreciate it. I hope I dont irritate anyone. As im trying to find this information only for my own use and not try to say that this is the only way to arrange. I think that everyone has a way and style that works for them. Im just looking into moving foward and learning your ways... So thank you so much for your advice I truly appreciate it.

Bluesplayer, im going to look into the programs you mentioned....
I currently own, VST32 and Cakewalk homestudion 9. I dont have any clue as how to use them, but I wonder if they will also work with the arranger programs. Or do the arranger programs, have their own built in sequencer?
I once read about XG works, but I didnt know if it was an arranger program, or Seq prgm only. Thanks for the info on that.
either way, thanks to all the guys for the input..

Peace to all.

MusiKman

While XGworks is a sequencer in its own right, and has an auto arranger plug in, it is really designed for Yamaha XG modules (though it's equally good for General Midi as well). If you have an XG module it is the best piece of software around for that. However, it was never designed with arranger keyboards in mind so you have to do your own work on constructing the various tables etc., rather like adding instrument definitions to Cakewalk but much more complicated. So you can make it work for other than Yamaha products except that the generated sysex is Yamaha specific. I did the tables for the PSR740/2000 but you're own your own for any others.

Bryan

Pilot is right about the XG works software, and his workaround is good. I tried but could not easily revise the patch files, so I found another workaround. It's Michael P Bedesem's style updater, which allows me to change all of the patch and bank data for my many Yamaha styles.. I made my own patch list for the Motif and the PA80 inside of the software, and then changed my favorite Yamaha styles so that they would reflect the patch / bank setups of those ( non XG ) keyboards.

Jammer Pro has it's own sequencer, and while it isn't top notch like Cakewalk Pro 9 and Sonar, it is adequate and you can do additional editing with in CW pro. You might want to look at Cal scripts too. They include some vry good editing tools for midifiles in CW and there are plenty available for free d/l.

It sounds like you want a little more customized type of backing styles, so Jammer Pro might be more useful than BIAB, although BIAB's style making interface allows step entering of drum notes. Still, you can do sophisticated rythyms with Jammer a lot quicker once you get into and understand the interface. Soundtrek is due to release an upgraded version ( vers 5 ) fairly soon, and from what I gather via email and conversations with them, this should include more tools in general, a better sequencer, and the the choice of being able to use algorithims ( as it works now ) and prerecorded midi data for style building. I am very much looking forward to it's release.

CW 9 / Sonar doesn't work directly with arranger programs, but there are some very decent plug ins available for it, such as Slicy Drummer / Fill in drummer, and Rythym and Chords, which does fairly good rythym guitar emulations. Cal scripts are small files that work in CW 9 / Sonar which allow you to do many things with notes including create chords, vary velocity and length, and create arpeggios ( there are many other functions that they can do as well ) . While I'm not particularly good at making my own CAL scripts, I d/loaded a freeware program that allows me to make custom and detailed Cal arpeggios without the hassle of having to write out the actual Cal script info and data manually. Really cool stuff.
Oh and btw, Jazz Sequencer is now freeware, and so is the Midi Wizard ( formerly known as Drumz Wizard ), so that's a good place to start. Jammer pro is available as a demo and I believe that the demo version will allow you access most if not all of the functions, except of course that the ability to save files is disabled. I would suggest a d/l of the trial version first so that you can get a idea of how it would work for you and see how comfortable you will be with it. If I'm not mistaken, BIAB also has a demo available for d/l, as do The real time style players I mentioned in my previous post.

Good Luck,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-27-2003).]

Oh and btw, Jazz Sequencer is now freeware, and so is the Midi Wizard ( formerly known as Drumz Wizard ), so that's a good place to start.

Bluezplayer, do you mean The Music Wizard?

And Frank, we haven't heard you in a while
about your present flr system. How is
Kontakt working out for you? Have Vsampler,
and/or Seer systems released any updates
that addressed the program change issue yet?

Frank,
Nice to hear that Kontakt is working out
for you. And sorry to hear about your
XP troubles, but it sounds like you are
back on track.
Forgive me is I have asked you previously,
buy can you tell me if Kontakt has the
ability to do custom scales(like Unity)can?

Thank You guys for the info. I knew you guys wouldnt let me down. Im downloading Jammer Pro rright now... im going to look for the other stuff.... I hope I find the right sites..


Peace to all...

MusiKman

Hello Guys, I downloaded jammer Pro and it sounds really awsome going thru my Korg i30.
The only thing is I dont know in what mode I need to use it. Should I be in arrangment mode, Sequencer mode, or Program mode?
I have placed my i30 in To host mode, which I think means that it will be controlled by Jammer pro. Because when I hit play on JP my Korg i30 starts to playback. It sounds pretty nice man... Im so surprised. I just have to know exactly how to work it.
Oh, also, is there some way that I can tell jammer pro that im using my Korg i30 so that it know what programs im using ?
Thansk for all the help guys..

Peace,
MusiKman