I can't believe this. I'm shocked to read that the Tyros doesn't support user Flash Rom Upgradeability, especially knowing that OS bugs are practically inevitable (at least initially) in just about all new keyboards, especially on the more highly sophisticated & complicated arrangers.

I'm amazed that Yamaha didn't learn from their major fiascal on the PSR2000: going back on their original claim (in writing) that the PSR2000 offered OS Flash ROM support. If the Tyros doesn't support OS Flash ROM upgradeability, I'll probably pass on Tyros, because I can't afford the 'down time' of having to send a keyboard back to the manufacter for OS upgrades.

Can anyone here provide more information? Your comments/opinions PLEASE.

- Scott

Scott,
I looked in George's original review and he said he did not ask about the flash rom upgrade...but thought it would. Hopefully he can contact his buddy at Yamaha and ask, because that is a major thing if it cannot be upgraded.
Terry

Scott,

got the info in the German Yamaha forum, the O/S IS in Flash, but the size is approx. 40MB.

It's not planned, to support 40MB via the net for personal upgrading, it's a dealer issue.

Ulrich

Hi Ulrich: Since many (most?) dealers (at least here in the US) aren't equiped with their own 'in house' repair department, I assume that the dealer would then just refer Tyros owners to a Yamaha factory authorized repair facility to perform the flash-able upgrade. Unfortunately this still means being without your keyboard for several days (or possibly weeks) as you wait for the repair technician to get to 'your' board. This isn't an option for gigging musicians who relies on their kb to make a living.

There's got to be a BETTER way to handle this situation. Since the Tyros already supports USB PC/keyboard connectivity, I would think Yamaha could just as easily provide Tyros owners with flash ROM-able OS updates on CD and allow them to download it to their keyboard from PC via USB. Afterall, if a flash ROM-able OS update is possible at all, wouldn't it be performed this SAME way at a repair facility? From a cost standpoint alone, it would make more sense for Yamaha to allow the end user to perform OS upgrades themselves. - Scott

Right on!
40 megs is nothing to download! I'm cable and that takes 2 or 3 minutes! Even if Yamaha doesn't want to post it on their site... I hope they allow us to put it in our forums!
Scottyee ... right on! Hopefully ... there is some misunderstanding! And that it can be usb upgraded!
Yamaha would be making a big big mistake if we have to take it to repair center!

Oh boy this isn't the PSR-2000 issue all over again is it? Anyone see if it's in the manual? You know how Yamaha is.. They'll say it is, but you'll see in small type "specifications subject to change without notice"... 40megs is a lot if it's via floppy... Smart Media I can understand that would be really quick.. Does the Tyros allow for SCSI hookup? Maybe Yamaha will be smart and utilize this for flash upgrades?

Squeak

There is NO SCSI for the Tyros. Only possibility is USB, but what I heard, it's not full speed USB (whatever that means).

Ulrich

usb 1 is plenty fast!
usb 2 is the newest standard ... and is many times faster... but ... usb 1 is fine for small stuff ... 40 megs is small stuff!
many digial camera's use usb port and it's alot faster then serial connection.

Probably writing the Flash itself will be the limiting factor for updating, regardsless how fast USB will be.

Ulrich

My suggestion... HOUND YAMAHA!!!!!! If everyone who buys the Tyros starts hounding Yamaha for an upgrade via USB... They might jump on it.. I remember me and SOOOOO many users on another keyboard forum for one of Yamaha's synths wouldn't let it go.. Finally Yamaha was sending the upgrade chips for free.. Hell the accidentally sent me two sets... Just stay on their hind ends about it... Get enough people complaining and they just may do it...

Squeak

Maybe the 'panic' is a little bit to early, nobody has really got a Tyros yet, nobody has discovered bugs.

But I agree, that this issue should somehow stay on top of all Tyros issues which will come in the future - and they will come ;-)

Ulrich

Does the Tyros support a PC keyboard via USB? I miss the fact that they dropped a ps/2 keyboard connector, it doesnt seem there is any way to enter filenames and style names except using those fiddly panel controls!

Simon



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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Can you imagine how much time it would take for stiffs like me to down load 40MB? Most of us peasants don’t have one of those super fast hookups on our computers. Forty MB’s!?!? and ?! Holy smokes!!!!! Man, they cut my throat after only a few MB’s. Sever my connection without even batting an eye!! Forty of them MB’s? My stars, don’t want to even think about it. About a year ago I tried downloading an 18MB’er. Started the download, looked at the time remaining, decided to go to bed and by morning it would be done. I must have been dreaming before I went to bed. These provider people have no mercy, cut my throat sometime during the night! They must be female. Can’t get along with em and can’t get along without em!

Scott get real. Yamaha provide you a CD and let you do it yourself? No after sale profit in that! After all, those repair guys gotta eat too. We can’t always think of ourselves only. Doesn’t the Yamme 9 have a USB and what can you do with that? Anyway just don’t get too disappointed. Patience is a virtue and we all need more of that. Just sit back and wait for the Tyros II. Good discipline!

Think I’ll go over to my board and practice a couple of new offerings for my next gig. Some of that new organ stuff ought to get a rise out of em. Once I get it phrased right it ought to knock their socks off and they wont know what hit em. When it aggravates Ruthie I know I’m on to something.

Happy playing,

Grandpa Doug

A "DEAD" link no doubt

It is HIGHLY LIKELY that the Tyros' USB speed will be the same as the Yamaha Motif, meaning that it is the same speed as MIDI itself. Realword, this is about half or lower the speed of a floppy disc.

So, transferring 40MB via the Tyros' USB is a big NO.

Q.

Shouldn't have to hound anybody for something. And I wouldn't count on their responding anyway. They still haven't fixed the Vocal Harmony on the 2000, and I've been hounding them for a year.
Ketron responds quickly to inquiries and honestly tries to make people happy. What a concept!
DonM

Doug,
"Scott get real. Yamaha provide you a CD and let you do it yourself? No after sale profit in that!"

In fairness to Yamaha, I will tell you that on my AW4416 they sent me 2/3 upgrades via a cd in the mail without even asking them before they made them available on their site. Secondly when I owned a Motif and was posting at Motifator.com.....they must have given away at least 1000 boxed copies of XG Works free, just for the asking.

Now I do not at all think Yamaha walks on water, but when they do good, it should be heard as well as when they do bad.
Terry

Terry, agreed, Yam's support is excellent.

Q

Queen, agreed, Yam's support is how you experience it. Their advertizing promises could use a little help.

Grandpa Doug

Grandpa: You say: 'We can't always think of ourselves only'. Come on, you gotta be 'pulling my leg'! I wasn't sure if you were just joking when you said that. Just in case you you were being serious, I thought I'd better respond. When I spend my hard earned $ on a new keyboard that has acknowledged software bugs, I only expect it the responsibility of the manufacter (and not ME) to cover the cost of fixing those bugs. Yamaha (with the 9000pro & PSR9000), Ketron, and even Technics, have all provided 'user upgradeable' flash ROM OS updates for quite some time. Supplying us with the software to optionally upgrade our KB OS ourselves is both financially cheaper for them (no installation labor costs for them) and more convenient for us (no downtime with KB in the shop). Sounds like a WIN WIN situation to me. What do other people think?

Scotty, just pulling your leg. With Ruthie and her girlfriends hanging around here the last few days I can't get a word in edgewise. Gotta let some words out or I'll explode. I know, yall (southern talk) will all say not a bad idea.

Grandpa Doug

Scott,
Of course there are no two ways about it. Your win / win scenario is absolutely how it should be.

Quite honestly if this is true, it concerns me and Yamaha should rethink this.
Terry

Hey Scotty and you west coast guys. Maybe next time I get out to the coast to see my middle daughter and the grandkids we can get together and have a keyboard duel just like I used to have them good old horn duels. Don't forget, my heart isn't as good as it used to be and I might have to sit down if it lasts too long. The pins aint what they used to be either. Nice to have a built in excuse if I can't keep up with you young squirts. Won't bring my horn cause I start sucking air after a bit. Should have stopped smoking a tad bit sooner than I did. If I do bring the tenor I got a nice trick to show you guys. I used it when the crowd needed to be livened up a bit. I would chew some bubble gum, press it up between my false teeth and the mouthpeice. When I took the horn out of my mouth my uppers would stick to the mouthpeice. I would walk back and forth on the stage holding my horn high taking bows for my solo. The crowd would go nuts. I would then act as if they really liked my ad-libs, stick the horn and everything back into my mouth as nothing ever happened and give them an encore. The rest of the evening was a peice of cake. The way I look at it is you have to make the best of what ya got.

Grandpa Doug

First of all - TYROS OS is Flash ROM Based.

It is of course planned to do some kind of bugfix if neccessary. You have to use a PC with USB connection and a program for the update procedure. This program is a small application and puts the huge amount of data into the TYROS. This is not difficult but takes app. 30 minutes. IF something happens like a power failure or disconnection of the data cable you can't revive the instrument easyly.
This is why Yamaha doesn't want to distribute the data to everyone.
Of course you can order the data if it's available and do the update procedure. But you have to be sure to have the technical talent. Otherwise you can contact your local dealer or service station.

Ron,
Where does your info come from and are you sure that they will make the data available to the general public? I really can't believe that Yamaha would do something this complex considering the 2000 mistake of the o/s.
Terry

Ron, I HOPE you're REALLY right here! Exactly WHERE did you get your info from?

How is Yamaha going to distribute the OS update & installation software? On CD? I assume that the OS bug fix Updates will be provided 'free of charge' to registered owners?

After Yamaha's recent fiascal re their blatant turnaround re their 'falsely advertised' Flash-able OS on the PSR2000, I'm understandably suspicious about how Yamaha's ACTUALLY going to handle the situation on the Tyros.

Ron, thanks in advance for providing us more info on your source. - Scott

Info I got from one of the techies at musicians friend is that this will be upgradeable via USB from Yamaha's web site. So now I am throughly confused. I wonder who and what is correct.
Terry

I just got an email from the product manager at Yamaha PK here in the US. I had emailed him last night and asked about the size and if a consumer could do the update without having to bring it in to a dealer. Here is what he had to say:
"I'll check on the size with Japan. The OS can be updated through the USB (I've already done this). However, size is an issue for dial-up connecting customers."
George Kaye
Kaye's music Scene
Reseda, California

Ok....I spent more than an hour with Yamaha on the phone this A.M with a very nice gentleman ....Steve. Hope he does not mind me mentioning his name, but credit where it is due. Very helpful, courteous and straight up, no B.S.

After this lengthy discussion, here is what I am convinced of regarding this entire o/s issue.

1. This is not a brand new bug laden operating system. It has been in use for some time as we know most resembling the 2k 9k and Clavinova.

2. They are taking great strides to make sure that the Tyros is as operationally stable as possible, before it is shipped.

3. It could be upgradable via the internet and is a 40mg o/s the danger coming in, when transferring to the Tyros via USB, if either crashes, then the board will have to go to Yamaha to be reprogrammed.

4. In any event here is what I am totally convinced of and has been my track record with Yamaha. If it is a problem , THEY WILL MAKE IT RIGHT.

Therin lies the bottom line and as far as I am concerned, the very most we can expect of any of these companies.

As for me, mine is still on order and I can't wait to get it.
jam on,
Terry

Terry, thanks for the fill-ins on the os....I was getting a little concerned about not ever having a way to update bug fixes and possible improvements. This area of interest may have swayed me I must admit.
Lou

Lou,
Something to keep in mind "improvements" such as new styles mega voices and the like are kept a different place than the o/s and as such will be an easy d/l, put to floppy or USB and load right in.

I beleieve this will be a very cool board and those of us prone to the Yammy sounds and interface are going to love it and the rest of the peasants......can eat cake.
jam on,
Terry

Terry I hear that!....

I just went to the Yammy site and again looked at the tyros features. a good way down the list I see this:
Flash ROM Operating System
The TYROS operating system (built-in software that gives the keyboard its functions) is stored completely in flash memory, which means that updating the keyboard with the latest OS version is as easy as downloading it from Yamaha's Portable Keyboard Website

Doesn't this answer our os questions?
Lou

Lou,
Yes it does....however it goes back to the fact that it is a 40 mg d/l and if there is a glitch when transferring to the Tyros via USB (computer crash power out). It will take away Tyros's ability to know how to upgrade itself, so it would then have to go back to the factory in the US, to be reprogrammed.
Howver it is doable and that answers my concerns as to whether or not it is upgradable.
Terry

Yep !
Now the question is WHEN will the Tyros actually begin appearing in US Stores so we can see, play, and hear it in person?

Hi Terrry: Those are my concerns as well, but I'm feeling more confident that Yamaha will find a way to deal with this, especially after speaking with Steve Deming (Yamaha) today. Keeping my fingers crossed. - Scott

Scott,
I'm not really all that concerned. I would be much more concerned if it glitched ate the Tyros o/s and it couldn't be fixed.

I'm really not expecting much in the way of serious bugs and I do not think they will be on the surface features, if anything, I think they will be deeper bugs, so those that really dig deep into the boards may find them....that's the advantage of not being a tweeker most of that stuff never effects me. Hopefully it will be the case with the Tyros too.

Have faith, I do this is going to be ok.
jam on,
Terry


[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-17-2002).]

Hey guys
I'm certain that Yamaha is not releasing the Tyros with the thought in mind:
Yea lets sell them and then have everyone send them back to be fixed!
I for one have a little more faith in there position...don't you?
Lou

I'm not certain of that at all. That's exactly what they did with the 2K, and of course most people couldn't, or didn't want to, part with their keyboards for a couple of weeks. Also, it said almost EXACTLY the same thing on the website about the OS. It was not true, as we know.
According to Scott, even Steve from Yamaha isn't certain how the upgrades will be handled yet. He is certainly more believeable that their web site.
There are STILL ads at internet music stores that claim the 2000 has Flash Rom upgrade capability.
Bottom Line is: To me it is ESSENTIAL to try this keyboard (or any of them really) personally before I buy. And I will most certainly buy something before the end of the year for tax purposes. I don't believe I will be able to see the Tyros before 2003. Hope I'm wrong. My dealer has one on order.
DonM
Close enough to Missouri to say "show me".

Check it out. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PSR2000Kit/
Don

I'm not sure where you think there might be a problem.

TYROS is now shipped with OS 1.00

As a Yamaha technician I have some experience in updating the PSR/CVP/TYROS and handling customer requests.

If you want to know anything, don't hesitate to ask. If you think you found a kind of bug, I think it would be great to make a new thread 'bugs & questions'

I will try to be here as often as possible and try to find a solution for your problems.

Don,
It is real inconvienient to be without one's board for a day much less a couple of weeks, not to mention the hassle of it.

However anyone that is making a living with their keyboard and does not have a backup board, IMO has their head in their.....uh you know.

ANY product conceived and built by man has the possibility of breakdown. If music is one's business, then they must as responsible business people prepeare for this possibility, with a backup board. How about you drop the board on the way into the gig and what you're looking at is about 200 pieces of plastic on the ground, or you stop for the latte on the way to the gig and someone else decides your keyboard would look real nice in their frontroom? The show must go on.

As far as web sites that still advertise the flash upgradeability of the 2k. We can't hold Yamaha responsible for every internet site and what they put on it.

I will be the first and loudest to jump down Yamaha's throat if they get stupid about this board and the almost 3k I'm spending on it and it goes bad. However I think one has to be reasonable and fair in judging them especially at this point with very few of these boards out there.

We are speculating about things that have not even occured yet.

Worst case scenario as I see it...the Tyros is bug laden cannot be upgrade by me, Yamaha does not come up with the fix in a resonable time......I can always trade it in on some other problem ridden board and deal with one of the other companies that is not near as responsive as Yamaha has been to me.

With the 2+ hours that Scott and I spent on the phone with Steve at Yamaha yesterday.....ok, look around your studio how many other manufactuers have called you on the phone and spent any time on the phone with you? Not many if any I bet.

The final thing is, one does have to take some responsibility for being their own advocate when they have a product that is a problem. If we have something that is a problem and do not take advantage of the warranty or put the effort into getting with the company and jumping down their throats to get it fixed and then making the effort to ship it etc. then the poor service falls on us because we have not taken advantage through laziness.

I'd like to hear from anyone here that has had a Yamaha product that has had a problem and THEY HAVE CALLED YAMAHA DIRECT AND COMPLAINED AND YAMAHA DID NOT FIX IT. Going through the dealer etc, doesn't count, because if we go by my experience with dealers, for the most part they are a bunch of busy people with alot on their plates and your broken board is just one of their many problems in a day.

So if you have called Yamaha direct and they said take a hike....let me hear it.

I want to reiterate, I do not think Yamaha is perfect in any way. They are big boys and girls and can defend themselves. The point I am making though is there has been quite a bit of what if's here that have been said and some have tried and convicted Yamaha before the crime has even been committed.

While we have all had different experiences with all the musical toy companies I can only say that Yamaha has been my best experience by far with any of them and have gone way over the top with taking care of what I needed whether it was info or fixes.
jam on,
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-18-2002).]

Ron,
Thanks and glad to know you are hanging out should we run into grief.
jam on,
Terry

As far as I can see is there no bug in the system, which accours a complete system crash.
If it would be neccessary to do an update, you can choose, on which days you won't use the keyboard and bring it to your dealer.
no one would give the keyboard away for 1 or 2 days just for fixing a bitmap in the display because it shows a 6-string instead of a 12-string guitar. let's talk about REAL problems. do you agree?

Well of course I have a backup--a Yamaha PSR8000. Sometimes it is necessary for me to use it because the Vocal Harmony presets work correctly, but it is always there in case the 2000 goes down. Also, I have several sets of music on my digital recorder that, in an emergency, I could use without either keyboard.
As far as talking to Yamaha about a problem, I've never had any beef with that. When I received the 2000 and tried to use the Karaoke Girl (I'm sure we are tired of hearing about this!), it would not work properly because it did not eliminate the lead vocal.
I phoned Yamaha and was offered sincere help. We talked by phone many times. Despite the fact that these presets worked properly in the 8000 and 9000, Yamaha insisted that there was nothing wrong with the 2000 and that they were designed to work that way. BUT, they sent an extensive work-around to make the Speedy Mouse work right.
In other words, even though there was nothing wrong with it, they tried to help me fix it. They never did that for the Karaoke Girl setting, and that is the one that is essential in some of my shows.
I am still not convinced that the problem could have been easily corrected with a software update, but of course that is not an option. Yamaha did tell me that the upgrades that were available did not address this problem. (Oh, I forgot it's not a problem, and it may not be to anyone else).
The problems they did address were not significant enough for me to send the keyboard to California and wait. My local dealer discussed the upgrade with Yamaha, and decided it was something beyond what they wanted to attempt.
Frankly, I never expected to keep the 2000 long after that, but I found it a quite good keyboard that has some excellent features and it well suited for what I was doing.
Despite this, the whole incident has left me more skeptical than before.
The point I was trying to make is that all this discussion is premature. The keyboard is not yet available here. As with previous models, they start hyping it a full year before it is ready. They don't even know the extent of the features when they start the talk. Their strategy obviously is working because it seems half the world is waiting with their checkbooks ready.
I think it is wonderful that some of the Yamaha people are monitoring the forum and even trying to help. This forum would be an invaluable source of feedback to them if they will let it.
I hope the Tyros is a truly wonderful keyboard. If it is I may get one, if it is available in time for me to audition it before the first of the year. Otherwise I will buy Ketron.
Then I can gripe about them again!
Don