I've had plenty of time to evaluate the good/bad of built-in vocal harmonizers, and I have come to the conclusion that NONE of them (including the 9kpro & Ketron) can duplicate the performance that I get from a stand alone unit.
The problem seems to be rooted in a connection to the notes played, whether by fingers or arrangers. On previous Digitech & Korg models, the chord played would simply trigger a midi command that the harmonizer "read" and interpreted as certain notes. On the built-in units, there is always an ON/OFF command that needs to be activated with the button (or FS). This prohibits the use of fast IN & OUT hits of harmony. For anything that's important - I NEED to bring the dedicated unit from now on. Nursing homes get the boxed version.

Hi Uncle Dave, everyone else. Nigel had an oops, so some posts ended up in odd places. So I'm bumping this one.

Hi Uncle Dave!
I paid attention to your post because I'm interested in what extra functions and advantages have external over internal vocoder units.
SD1 is my first connection to vocoders ever and I'm very happy with it, it's a great tool to improve arrangements . I don't miss any functionality because I simply don't know what else to expect from a vocoder.
If you are willing to put down few features to explain, what can I benefit with external unit, I'll be gratefull. Which model should I test?
Thanks.
Luka

Dave,

I would be very interested in the diffences between the 9000 and an external harmonizer. What external brand would you recommend?

Thanks
Ed

Well, I've stated before that I tend to use the harmonies more as a "feature" of the group sound than a backup. I am going for that "Four Freshman" / "Manhattan Transfer" type of sound. For that reason, and coupled with the fact that I still play a lot of left hand manual bass parts - I NEED to trigger the harmonies from my right hand. ALWAYS. It's simply a must have, and NOT an option.

The Ketron is the closest to the Digitech system in this regard because it can recognize chord structures from ANY area of the keyboard. The trouble with Solton is that the harmony notes will shut off as polyphony is exceeded too. I want a simple chord signal to be sent out to trigger the harmonies. I don't want the actual notes played to do the work.The Yamaha system can follow either side of the keyboard split, but ONLY in vocoder mode in the right hand. That is too limiting because I can't always finger the exact voicing I want the voices to play without affecting the kb sound. Korg will only follow the arranger side of the board - no matter what. (yuk)
A sequence user can pre-record the needed harmonies into a track (like the Tune1000 products), but that has always been an option, and is not hard to do.

S0 - what does all this really mean to a singer?
For starters - it limits how the chords need to be played on the kb.
Next, it makes it impossible for a "harmony solo" over drum accmp. only because the arranger notes need to trigger the harmonies. Think of Doby Gray's
"Drift away" - I like to open up the chorus section as an accepella feature, and this can't be done on the 9k without holding the chords down.
The way the Digitech works - it simply receives a chord on a specified midi ch, and holds that chord till a new one is sent. The on/off sw brings in the harmony voices, and all's right with the world. Very smooth, and the voices are always ready when needed. On The Yamaha, sometimes they need a split second to recognise the chord after the on/off sw is pressed - very noticable - can't deal with lags in performance.
In the Yamaha line, the vocoder method is too restricting to my chord voicings, and the vocal notes drop off if the sustain pedal is not held down forever. That makes for a very MUDDY kb sound.

If you're vocal needs are simple, and you are not a fussy singer, then the on-board units can help by thickening up a lead. If you are a serious singer, who wants to really "showcase" the harmony arrangements - the kb versions are still a step behind the leaders. Digitech is a great choice for value, and I've read that the Helicon unit is also great, but expensive. (and it's a two space rack unit)

I've been using the harmonizers since they first came out, and I have been very happy with the way they worked. This new add on unit is a small convienience, but at a serious cost. I can't reccomend the "built-in" over the "stand-alone" unless you allow for loss of quality. I'm pretty fussy about the vocals, and I don't like to cut corners where my voice is concerned. It's the priority of ALL my shows, and that's why I am so fussy about it. If your vocal styling needs are not as important to you - the built in units are an OK tool. Far better than nothing at all.

Ofcourse this is true, how can a $2000,-- keyboard include the quality of a $1500,-- vocal Harmonizer.

I think most of the pro's will always use a separate box.

Just my humble opinion.

Just for the record, the Digitech "Vocalist Access" only costs around $300-400. There are lots of choices UNDER $500 that are superior to the "on board" units. The only real high end one that I know of is the Helicon, and that's not in my future bause of size. (2 rack spaces)I's not even a great studio piece because it only has TWO outputs!
The psr2k is a giant compromise all the way, but at the price it sells for - it's a fabulous buy for the giging musician, or the serious hobbyist.

The harmonizer on the PSR2000 suits my needs just fine. I use it to do one or two-part harmony with my vocals. Occasionally I will use the larger group settings.
I guess since I do make a decent living playing music with it, then that makes one pro who doesn't fit the norm.
DonM

Same here. I'm very satisfied with the PSR2000's vocal harmonizer, and I make a decent living with music. Obviously, the vocal harmonizer doesn't suit Uncle Dave's or Scott Yee's needs for large venues. The quality of the harmonies is A-1, but it sounds like the rack-harmonizer has certain features that the onboard harmonizer doesn't have.

If you don't use a volume pedal, you could use a sustain pedal to activate the vocal harmonizer. I use a sustain pedal to activate the voice harmony/echo button. If both pedals are taken up, I wonder if the MFC10 could activate the harmonizer on/off button.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Actually, I too think the PSR2000's harmonizer is pretty decent sounding. It is only when you do an actual A/B comparison with the Digitech standalone unit that you hear the difference. It's also important to remember to keep the harmony volumes lower than yours and avoid pushing the harmony pitchs to extremes. Afterall, the harmonies are not meant to be a replacement to your voice, just an added backup.

Unless the PSR2000's harmonizer's on/off function is supported via a midi 'control change' command, I don't think it will be possible to get the MCF10 to trigger it. I don't even know if the 2000's harmonizer on/off feature is even supported by SysEx. The answer to this can be found in the PSR2000 Data List book, but even if it did, you would have to send the SysEx via your computer via midi to the MCF10 as the PSR2000 itself does not support SysEX command templates like the PSR9000. I use the MCF10 to trigger the arranger's basic functions: start,stop, main: a,b,c,d (and associated fill ins), intro 1,2, ending 1,2. I use one of the two PSR2000's single footswitches to trigger harmony on/off and the other for piano sustain. That makes a total of 12 pedals. eeek. That's enough to keep my feet occupied.

Even though I only take the MFC10 out for the larger venues (it is a bit bulky to transport) , it really can make a BIG difference in the your overall performance because it allows you to focus BOTH hands on playing the keyboard while allowing you to trigger fillls (with your foot) at just the right moment(s).

Is the built-in harmonizer on PSR2000 the same as the PLG100-VH? Does this plug-in board that can go with S80/CS6x can be compared to the one in the arranger keyboard or external harmonizer like the Vocalist? Let me know before I buy one for myself this Xmas.

I used the external Digitech Harmonizers for years. The latest one I had was the Vocalist II rackmount model. The PSR harmonizer is better than it was and has more useable preset options. I'm sure the newer Digitechs are much improved, just as I'm sure the next generation of keyboards will be better and so on and so on . . . ain't it fun????
I do have a question about the PSR2000 vocal harmonizer though, but I'll start a new string for it.
DonM

Yup,
The Vocalist II was no bargain. That series still sounded robotic, but the smoothness was unbeatable. The biggest trouble with the Yamaha unit is the on/off time lag. I love to punch in the harmonies for a quick phrase here & there, and it has a slight delay sometimes. Same delay happens if you turn the dedicated DSP on/off during singing -- it's coughs a bit. Like I said - It's OK, but just OK. I'm glad it works for most of you, but I seem to color "out of the lines" a lot, and I need the extra versatility to complete my sound.

I admit it - i DO ask a lot from my tools, and lately I just haven't been satisfied. None of it matters to the clients - they think I'm just fine. High Tech and all - if they only knew HOW much I wanted to change things. The music biz is a game with smoke & mirrors, and I've mastered ALL the tricks - it's just more fun when I can concentrate on the show and not the showmanship.

Beakybird,

Yes, the MFC10 can be set up to operate almost any keyboard function. I use switches 1 through 4 to activate the drum fills and switch 5 turns vocal harmoney ON/OFF. I use the MFC10's pedal to fade-in/out the R2 instrument (usually strings). Switches 6,7 8, and 9 presently activate the A, B, C, D styles but I rarely use them since I use the fill-up/down switches to change the accompaniment.

The MFC10 is simple to setup. I guess I'm lazy because I haven't even bothered to setup the other levels (over 100 different switch settings). I highly recommend the MFC10 to anyone that wants to keep their hands on the keys instead of pushing buttons.

Regards,
Steve

Hi Steve,

I assume that the PSR keyboard's built in harmonizer on/off function is controled via a 'standard midi message', not a sysEx (system exclusive) command, right? If so, can you please provide the following MFC10 parameter settings needed to make this work:

1) Mode: 'Function' or 'Program Change'
1) Status:
2) Data/Ctrl:
3) Bank MSB/Max:
4) Bank LSB/Min:
5) Toggle on-off:

Thanks,

- Scott

Scott,

The interface between the 9000PRO and the MFC10 is midi however, no midi programming was required to setup the MFC10. I simply select the functions I want to control from a text menu (it said "Vocal Harmony ON/OFF") and the keyboard sends the correct midi signals. Once I've selected which function is controlled by each switch, I press END. The keyboard saves my settings and remembers them each time I power ON the keyboard. So, once it's setup, you don't have to do it again (you can change it any time you like).

So, anyone (even someone like me that doesn't understand a lot about midi signals) can setup the MFC10 to operate nearly any function on the 9000PRO without having to study the manual. Does the PSR2000 have anything about the MFC10 in it's manual? If so, it may work the same way as the 9000PRO.

I'll check it out tonight for you and see if I can find the info you want. If I find it, then I'll post it tomorrow for you.

Steve

Steve,

It appears that the 9000pro includes a special dedicated MFC10 template window which allows you to program the MFC10 pedals directly from the 9000pro itself. Unfortunately the PSR2000 does NOT include this. I must program everything on the MFC10 itself.

Perhaps you can check on the actual 'foot controler #5 pedal' itself and tell me what settings it got assinged to by your keyboard and then I can 'manually' try setting one of my MFC10 pedals to these same values and see if this might work to trigger the vocalizer harmony on/off on the PSR2000.

Again, here are the MFC10 settings I'm looking for:

1) MFC10 Mode: 'Function' or 'Program Change'
2) Status
3) Data/Ctrl
4) Bank MSB/Max
5) Bank LSB/Min
6) Toggle on-off or Number of Pgm

- Scott

Scott,

I tried to get you the info you need last night but was unable to access it without the MFC10 template coming up on screen. The 9000PRO knows its connected to the MFC10 and it knows it has an interface template, so as soon as I start to access the info, it slams the template onto the screen. There's got to be a way that I can view the footswitch settings but I had limited time to spend searching. I'll try again tonight.

Hang in there,
Steve

Just another "clarification" for my post title - I thought about the use of harmonies and I came up with a major difference between the way I use it, and the way some others do.

In my show -- the harmonies are not background -- they are definitely FOREground, and that's why I demand more from the processor. In a background situation, sure ... most anything is adequate -- but I want more.

I need a special "edge" to the vocal sound, and I can't get it from any of the built in units I've tried. (ALL of them) I did a Christmas show last night and I saw the faces of the crowd everytime I "featured" the vocal group (as it were). It really makes a huge difference in the presentation. It's not for everyone, but for me -- it's EVERYTHING.

I'm officially in high gear from now till the middle of February, and added to the increased tension at home with my darling daughter - I'll be a member in spirit again for a while. Merry Christmas to all, and I wish you well during this joyous and Holy season. Remember, It's not about Santa.