Vic83, actually the Motif ES can handle up to "1 Gigabyte" of Sample RAM just for the record. And yes, I agree with you that I would have rather the Motif ES have USB 2.0 capability too. But let me say this; if for example you had 512MB of Sample RAM data on the Motif ES to transfer,- even though the largest Smart Media Card is 128MB and you couldn't transfer all the data to the SM Card; you could buy an external USB Storage Device, ie., Thumb Drive, Flash Drive, USB Hard Drive, IBM Micro Drive, etc., which range in size from 32MB all the way up to '120GB' and larger. So you COULD transfer the Sample data that way by using the USB port on the Motif ES. The time it would take to transfer 512MB's is approximately 16 minutes over the Motif ES's USB port to an external USB storage device. But once the data is ON the USB storage device and if your computer has USB 2.0 ports and the USB Storage Device is USB 2.0 capable, then the time to transfer the Sample data onto your computer will take "MUCH" less time to do because USB 2.0 transfer rate is up to 480MB/sec.

But like you said, it is what a person needs in a Keyboard that is 'important' to him, and he has to base his purchase decision on that need. I am glad you are happy with the Fantom S and I am in no way trying to dissuade you from your purchase. But when you have the chance to demo the Motif ES in person; please do so, and don't just rely on MP3 demos to convince you to buy one or not.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 09-06-2003).]

Mike,

I am glad to hear that the SM card capacity is not limited to 128 MB. Even if it was, one could use several cards, as they are quite cheap these days.

I am not sure you are correct about the USB storage devices - these are designed to connect into the USB Master port, like the one on the computer. Most KBs, (I am sure Motif falls into that category) have only a USB slave port. The USB storage devices can not be plugged into the slave port - you can only connect it to the master device.

Vic,

Indeed, comparisons of the keyboards is a very subjective matter. I am glad you are happy with your Fantom.

It's interesting you should mention the expansion slots. The four expansion cards you chose will cost about $900 - almost the price of another keyboard. All it is is memory expansion, and by constricting you to using their proprietary memory cards (of only 64 MB capacity), they force you to pay for the media, and not for the sounds themselves. Wouldn't you rather buy the sounds on a CD (even at $50 each set, would run you $200) and load them into non-volatile memory card (about $50) yourself, for a quarter of the price?

The idea of using proprietary memory cards is at least 10 years old - ancient in electronic terms. At least when you get a plug-in board from a Yamaha, you get a whole sound engine, with added polyphony. You get none of that from Roland.

I am not saying that Roland instruments are all bad, and the competition is all good. Each has their own strong points. However, I feel that Roland has lost its competitive edge, at least with the current product lineup.

Alex

Heck,
How about a Genesys and then you can load in Akai, Kurzweil and .wav via the internal CD drive. Awesome board!
Zuki

Hi Alex. The Motif ES has "2" USB ports on the back of it. One is a "To Host" USB port that makes it possible to hook it directly up to a PC by way of a USB Type B to Type A cable. The other USB port is a "To Device" port. With this USB port you can connect external USB Storage Devices to it. USB external devices like Thumb Drives, (Flash Drives), External Hard Drives, Micro Drives, etc. You can 'hook' a compatible USB Storage Device directly into the Motif ES's "To Device" port and the Motif ES will be able to read and write to that Drive. You can also hook up the USB storage Device to a computer's USB port (you can hook Thumb Drives - "Flash Drives" - directly or by using a Type A to Type A USB extension cable, and other type Storage Devices such as an External Hard Drive by way of a Type A to Type A USB cable.) And then transfer the data onto the computer's Hard Drive and then re-load it - (or other data) -back into the USB Storage Device and hook it back up the Mo' ES and load it back onto the Mo' ES. It seems it will be a very convenient and easy process to do.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 09-06-2003).]

//Vic83, actually the Motif ES can handle up to "1 Gigabyte" of Sample RAM just for the record. //

Yes I know but Then how come Yamaha is not advertising the 1GB

//And yes, I agree with you that I would have rather the Motif ES have USB 2.0 capability too. But let me say this; if for example you had 512MB of Sample RAM data on the Motif ES to transfer,- even though the largest Smart Media Card is 128MB and you couldn't transfer all the data to the SM Card; you could buy an external USB Storage Device, ie., Thumb Drive, Flash Drive, USB Hard Drive, IBM Micro Drive, etc., which range in size from 32MB all the way up to '120GB' and larger. So you COULD transfer the Sample data that way by using the USB port on the Motif ES.//

So your saying Add Another $250 atleast to the motifES's price if you want one of those 120GB USB storge or one of those $700 1GB memory cards? then it goes to the price of the Triton studio don't you think?

//The time it would take to transfer 512MB's is approximately 16 minutes over the Motif ES's USB port to an external USB storage device. But once the data is ON the USB storage device and if your computer has USB 2.0 ports and the USB Storage Device is USB 2.0 capable, then the time to transfer the Sample data onto your computer will take "MUCH" less time to do because USB 2.0 transfer rate is up to 480MB/sec//

So IF your preforming on stage and you got a computer with a USB2.0. then the motif should be loading fast which is a good thing. but if your at home or preforming and using the onbaord sampling. with MAXING out the "1GB" RAm and want to/exchange/save your work, you have to wait 32 MIN for the Keyboard to transfer the samples to the computer right? don't you think that too much waste of time?

//But like you said, it is what a person needs in a Keyboard that is 'important' to him, and he has to base his purchase decision on that need. I am glad you are happy with the Fantom S and I am in no way trying to dissuade you from your purchase. But when you have the chance to demo the Motif ES in person; please do so, and don't just rely on MP3 demos to convince you to buy one or not. //

So far after hearing alot of factory demos for every yamahas and then demoing the units it self. I have been disappointed and though the demos pretty much shows you the best the yamaha keyboard can do. and that is "my" own experince with yamaha keyboards. I do the same with rolands, find demos, listen and then finally go check out the board. what I find in the rolands is that it makes me creative when you start mixing sounds and tweaking it your self. you can really take the roland sounds to unlimited points. again that's my own experince and my own opininon.

So what ever makes you happy, go for it. it's as simple as that .

Best regards,
Vic

//Vic,
It's interesting you should mention the expansion slots. The four expansion cards you chose will cost about $900 - almost the price of another keyboard. All it is is memory expansion, and by constricting you to using their proprietary memory cards (of only 64 MB capacity), they force you to pay for the media, and not for the sounds themselves. Wouldn't you rather buy the sounds on a CD (even at $50 each set, would run you $200) and load them into non-volatile memory card (about $50) yourself, for a quarter of the price?//

You have both choices. you can buy sample CDS and load them in the fantom or you can expand the fantom's 64MB rom sounds to 320MB OF WAVE ROME DATE! .

//The idea of using proprietary memory cards is at least 10 years old - ancient in electronic terms. At least when you get a plug-in board from a Yamaha, you get a whole sound engine, with added polyphony. You get none of that from Roland.//

OK, as far as I understand it. those PLG boards have there own Polyphony for there own sounds right? like the MOSS with it's 6 VOICES. korg clamed that it increase the polyphonice from 62 to 68. but in reality it isnt, it's just adding total polyphony that the keyboard can produce. the 6 voice are for the moss board's sounds and the moss board sounds can not share with the triton's HI62 POLyphony. isn't it the same with yamaha?

-One nice thing about the fantom is Resampling. and the SKIPBACK SAMPLING feature. those too features pretty much allow you to just have unlimited polyphony and the resampled file only uses one note(polyphony)

//I am not saying that Roland instruments are all bad, and the competition is all good. Each has their own strong points. However, I feel that Roland has lost its competitive edge, at least with the current product lineup.//

No roland didn't lose. the FantomS is just not for you that's all .

Alex

[/B][/QUOTE]

Mike,

Thank you for describing this feature and correcting my misconception. I did not think that Motif was so elaborately designed - I am actually quite impressed that it is. While, like Vic, I wish Yamaha had implemented USB2.0 functionality on the Motif (they could have used it for multi-channel audio connection as well), it is refreshing to see that they have at least done the USB right.

I hope the competition (Korg/Roland/Ketron/etc.) and Yamaha's own arranger keyboard division learn from the design of the Motif's USB.

Regards,
Alex

Originally posted by: Vic83


"So your saying Add Another $250 atleast to the motifES's price if you want one of those 120GB USB storge or one of those $700 1GB memory cards? then it goes to the price of the Triton studio don't you think?"

"So IF your preforming on stage and you got a computer with a USB2.0. then the motif should be loading fast which is a good thing. but if your at home or preforming and using the onbaord sampling. with MAXING out the "1GB" RAm and want to/exchange/save your work, you have to wait 32 MIN for the Keyboard to transfer the samples to the computer right? don't you think that too much waste of time??


Answer to first question: First of all you don't have to get a 120GB Storage Device Vic83. You can get an 40GB External Hard Drive for around $119. NOTE: You have to install the DIMM Memory in 'pairs'. You can get "2" 512MB DIMMS for as low as $140.

NOTE: The reason Yamaha marketed the Motif ES as "512MB SAMPLE RAM" instead of 1GB SAMPLE RAM is because Yamaha felt compelled to go with the lower figure because of Load time issues - even though it CAN indeed support up to 1 GB of Memory. Yes, it would be roughly 32 min. to load/transfer 1GB of data to/from the Motif ES. But 512MB will only take roughly 16 min which is not all that bad considering.

Answer to 2nd question:

But how many times would a person actually transfer that much data on the Motif ES at one time??? My guess is it would be once in a Blue Moon. Tell you what Vic83; if you ever decide to transfer that much data at one time on the Motif ES just let it start transferring and then start thinking about all the advantages you gained by buying the Motif ES over other Synth Workstations and by the time you finished counting all the advantages the Mo' ES would have already finished transfering the data!

PS: If you are on Stage and have a Laptop computer with USB 2.0 capability and transfer data to the Motif ES and transfer data from the Motif ES to the Laptop, the transfer speed would still only be USB 1.1 spec speed because the Motif ES's USB interface only supports USB 1.1. The only time the transfer rate would be USB 2.0 speed, ie., "480MB/sec., is when you have a USB 2.0 Storage Device, eg., (external USB 2.0 Hard Drive), and you transfer the data on it into a USB 2.0 capable Laptop or Desktop or from the USB 2.0 capable Laptop or Desktop back into the USB 2.0 external Hard Drive Storage Device, etc. ALL data going directly into or out of the Motif ES itself will always be at USB 1.1 specification speed.

Best regards,
Mike


[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 09-06-2003).]

That's great. So if I understand correctly, a person may chose to pay more to expand the wave ROM, or pay less money to get the sounds they need using the other approach. Since I usually prefer to pay less money rather than more, especially when the end result is the same, having the expansion slots is not a benefit to me, that is worth mentioning.



This is exactly the problem. While I presently own two Roland boards (and would not be averse to upgrading my G1000 to the new model, should it prove worthwhile), there is nothing in Roland's current lineup that I have interest in using. Judging from the sales figures which RolandFan cited above, I am not alone. Therefore, Roland did lose.

I believe in healthy competition, and would like to see Roland continue to be a force in the musical instrument market. That is why I am hoping that Roland will be interested in reversing the downward direction of its sales chart, and will offer something that I (and others like me) would be interested in buying. Otherwise, the competition will take care of Roland, in which case all of us, whether we own Roland instruments or not, will be worse off.

Regards,
Alex

//Answer to first question: First of all you don't have to get a 120GB Storage Device Vic83. You can get an 40GB External Hard Drive for around $119. NOTE: You have to install the DIMM Memory in 'pairs'. You can get "2" 512MB DIMMS for as low as $140.//

Options, options, options, you know what the greatest thing about Roland? is that you don't have ot buy options to get somthing out of your keyboard. fantomS costed $40 (yes $40)for a 256MB upgrade and that's about it. The motif ES doesn't even come standered with digital out!

//NOTE: The reason Yamaha marketed the Motif ES as "512MB SAMPLE RAM" instead of 1GB SAMPLE RAM is because Yamaha felt compelled to go with the lower figure because of Load time issues - even though it CAN indeed support up to 1 GB of Memory. Yes, it would be roughly 32 min. to load/transfer 1GB of data to/from the Motif ES. But 512MB will only take roughly 16 min which is not all that bad considering.//

Well your proving my point . and by then your probably will loose the will for playing the ES.

//Answer to 2nd question:

But how many times would a person actually transfer that much data on the Motif ES at one time??? My guess is it would be once in a Blue Moon. Tell you what Vic83; if you ever decide to transfer that much data at one time on the Motif ES just let it start transferring and then start thinking about all the advantages you gained by buying the Motif ES over other Synth Workstations and by the time you finished counting all the advantages the Mo' ES would have already finished transfering the data! //

I can do that one time but I'm not going to do it forever you know .

//PS: If you are on Stage and have a Laptop computer with USB 2.0 capability and transfer data to the Motif ES and transfer data from the Motif ES to the Laptop, the transfer speed would still only be USB 1.1 spec speed because the Motif ES's USB interface only supports USB 1.1. The only time the transfer rate would be USB 2.0 speed, ie., "480MB/sec., is when you have a USB 2.0 Storage Device, eg., (external USB 2.0 Hard Drive), and you transfer the data on it into a USB 2.0 capable Laptop or Desktop or from the USB 2.0 capable Laptop or Desktop back into the USB 2.0 external Hard Drive Storage Device, etc. ALL data going directly into or out of the Motif ES itself will always be at USB 1.1 specification speed.//

Makes perfect sense!thanks for the info!