I'm going to keep bumping this............

Doesn't ANYONE appreciate the ability to take your left hand off the chord chores, and play two-handed?? Why are we not ALL demanding this (actually, pretty simple to implement) capability, no matter what manufacturer's arrangers we use?

Imagine the scenario.......... You play the intro to the song, and in the bar before the first verse, you hit Record. You then play the first verse and chorus by hand, and in the bar before the second verse, you hit Play. Now the Chord sequencer will play the chords for you (and you can still change variation and fills to give it a 2nd or 3rd verse 'lift') and you can use your left hand for counter-melodies, or a better bass line, or using the bender like a madman, or even downing a pint or two!!

WHY ARE WE NOT SCREAMING FOR THIS FEATURE?

Especially Roland users who used to (up to the G1000) have this on most of their arrangers..........

I don't know about you, but I actually am capable of playing more with my left hand than just chords. I sure would like to be able to use it more fully, once again ;-(

Isn't that feature on the Ketron SD5?
Starkeeper

Hi Diki
Calm down, I see your point and most instruments of a few years ago had this feature as standard. (If memory serves correct the first manufacture to incorporate it was Wersi in 1982, with the CX1 rhythm unit that was fitted to there analogue organs)
However you must remember that up to a few years ago, memory was very expensive, and as a chord sequencer used very little memory it was ideal.
Memory these days is quite cheap, so there is plenty of capacity to fit a full blown sequencer, which can record everything you need, and so this effectively makes a chord sequencer redundant.
Enjoy whatever you play.

Bill

No, Bill, you just don't get it......... (THIS is why more of you aren't howling for this feature!)

The chord sequencer is something you use LIVE, whenever you feel like it or need it, exactly like an arranger. You COULD record every single song you do to your internal Song Recorder and then play it back as an SMF, but then you lose ALL interactivity with the playback and structure, EXACTLY the reason you got an arranger in the first place!

You don't have to pre-prepare the song in advance, and you don't have to do it the same every night with the chord sequencer, and you can switch in and out of it's use on-the-fly while you are playing your Arranger.

Most of the reason we all use arrangers is to get away from the preset nature of SMFs........... Here is a way to help take the LH chord duties away, if you want, when you want, and use your left hand for the bender, or rootless comping, or ANYTHING.

From what I've read, the Ketron implementation of this idea has possibilities, but is somewhat different. First and foremost, there is a 32 bar limit to the loop, which you can't always guarantee is sufficient (though I agree, probably will do most of the time), and playback of the loop is not still under the players control - it either plays it back the same each time, or it applies it's own decisions about complexity and volume, when all you want to do, in all likeliness, is to vary the fills and variations on each go-round to avoid repetition. YOU are still in control with a chord sequencer. (IF I've got it wrong about the SD5, let me know)

Come on, everybody, what about this unbelievably useful function don't you feel YOU need? Let me know, because I still fail to see how anyone could NOT appreciate one......

Diki, I still play a G1000 for many reasons..including the chord sequencer..It is also the best song writing tool you can use...As you know we can enter the chord progression [in realtime], and we are not locked into any particular style, tempo[and tempo changes] and we can add fills , intros ,endings all in real time...

With all the great new boards of today, we still have members here that own both the G1000 and also a newer board[Tyros etc]..I honestly can't believe deep down inside, they know the better performance instrument is the G1000, especially if you use all the features available[chord sequencer, SMF playback, Performances with song links and many other features....All this we can use without going to variable menus..For example we can play or search a SMF while playing the arranger and vise versa[one button push away from playing...not so on Tyros2..

Hey Dikki! Wow! I never knew this feature (the way you explained it) even existed on any arranger keyboard b4. Though Yamaha arrangers include a so called chord sequencer feature, it doesn't allow you to record "live" .

Ok Dikki: I've finally woken up! Finally (for the 1st time) grasping the your description of how Roland's chord sequencer exactly worked, I'm with you "all the way" man! , and understand how useful this feature is for 'live' performance arranger keyboard players like us.

Up until now, I've repeatedly stated, that when playing in auto accomp arranger mode , that I thought 61 keys adequate, because the left hand is restricted to triggering auto accomp chords, and of which can be achieved (via full fingered chords/including inversions & smooth voice leading) within an octave and a half, but with the 'live rec' Chord Seq (Roland) feature ability to FREE the left hand up to play MORE than chords alone, which emphasizes the importance (and necessity) of a 76 (or better yet 88) note arranger keyboard now.

Ok. I encourage others here to jump on the 'live rec' Chord Sequencer feature bandwagon now, to let the arranger keyboard manufacturers (not just Roland) how important & useful a 'live record' Chord Sequencer feature would be.

Thank you Dikki, for raising this important topic again.

Scott

Scott the one parameter you need to set[to use the chord sequencer effectively in full keyboard range], to a assignable button...turn off the arranger recognition..This is easily available on the G1000...

I think the reason the manufacturers are not utilizing this feature...people[even those that have the feature] do not use the feature...They think it is too complicated..and in fact it is simple to use.

Now that Roland has got away from the feature, I don't think you will see it again on any board......only if Roland gets it together again, maybe the Yamaha, Korg, Ketron, and Gem folks will re think the issue..


Scott to prove my point..I know you used a Roland RA800...I bet you never used the chord sequencer!!!!

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-28-2006).]

Sounds like a great feature for improvising and also for playing in full keyboard mode. I've said a few times, that playing a piano is not like an organ. The piano music I've seen don't always use full chords, so the arranger won't recognize it. Sometimes the chord is arpeggiated (spelling?), so again the arranger won't recognize it. You don't always Hammer down full chords on a piano when the chord changes (even with both hands).
Starkeeper

Hello Diki
I think I see what you are getting at; you want to be able to record a chord sequence on the fly, and then be able to press one button to get the sequence to loop while you play with both hands.
If this is correct, then for arranger use in a gigging situation, I can see the advantages, however as most arrangers are not sold to gigging musicians, I think you will probably not have much luck.
One suggestion I would make, (Assuming I have understood what you want correctly) is to post it on a lot of different forums, to see if you can get others interested, and then get them to put the idea to the manufactures and dealers, that way if enough people want it, then the manufactures will no doubt incorporate it.
If I have understood it correctly, would you let me know, as I can then suggest the idea to Wersi, (Being a software instrument means it would be easy to add) and also post the idea on other forums I am a member of, to see if I can stir up some interest and make manufactures take notice.
Hope this helps.

Bill

I know mine isn't an arranger, but my Roland synth has a "chord memory" which probably doesn't operate as they did on arrangers, but this is a very useful tool when recording, and greatly helps when I want to free both my hands up from chords so that I can focus on splits and solos.

My chord memory not only has tons of presets, but I can record user chord sets as well.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-28-2006).]

Bill , Roland used the chord sequencer for years[nothing new]..And it works as you understand it... The other companies know about it..it just was never in the forefront of the market[Roland]..

Squeak the chord memory is a great idea on the workstation, but is nothing [or as useful] as on Roland's prior arranger models...

Bill it may be easy to program via software, but the hardware buttons[access] make it work in realtime..It can't be an after thought to do it right..

Guitar players have access to this technology, why can't we. I have seriously considered buying a loop recorder just for this reason. It doesn't give the flexibility you mentioned, but it does offer a hands free set of phrases. Hi tech isn't always the best.

I just purchased a 30 yr old set of Crumar bass pedals to replace two midi pedalboards I could never get satisfaction from. They're great, and do the job exactly as I want it done.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 06-28-2006).]

Believe me, guys (and girls!), I have made about as big a stink about the loss of this feature to Roland as anyone can........... Come to the Danish G70 forum and check it out. I think everyone thinks I'm crazy, there!

I had a RA90, G800, and G1000 as my rig developed, and as soon as the G800 (first which had the Chord sequencer) came out, I 'got it'. Playing the chords on an arranger is a terrible waste of a good left hand - once you've played them once, it's redundant - but you don't want to give up the flexibility of arranger play and move to SMFs to completely free your LH.............

I have posted (at length) to Roland - who DO monitor our forum - about workarounds they could make in the OS to return some of the functionality of the Chord Sequencer to the G70 (and by extension, ALL the new Roland arrangers) but the silence is deafening......... Roland first dropped the chord sequencer on the VA series, which turned out to be such a flop that few even saw one, yet alone bought one, so few of us using G800s and G1000s even knew that Roland had stopped implementing it. It was a complete shock to see the G70 without one.

Now I know the G70s sequencer will record the arranger, but Roland made no provision for looping the recording, or starting it on-the-fly after the recording, so there is no practical way to do this in any limited form with the current OS.

Please, ALL you G800/1000 users, who are thinking of getting into the next generation of arrangers (and making Roland a LOT of money!), make your voices heard......... Phone Roland, post emails, post in all the fora you can, let's put pressure on Roland to re-introduce this BASIC feature and GIVE US BACK OUR LEFT HAND!!

Other manufacturers keyboard users, start making waves! This is probably the most useful function YOUR keyboard doesn't do.............

Abacus.......... it's hobbyists that benefit the MOST from this feature, not the professional.... imagine how much easier it is for a hobbyist to play a good solo if they don't have to worry about getting the chords right......... play the chords only the first verse and chorus, hit play on the fly, and then concentrate on the solo. Brilliant!

I'm on a one man crusade, apparently (but my ranks are swelling slowly)........

GET ON BOARD!

Absolutely the most day-to-day useful feature NONE OF YOU HAVE...........

Hey Diki, you obviously 'overlooked' MY reply on this same tread:



Scott

As I said, my ranks are swelling....... (thanks Scott!) Let's just keep discussing how useful this feature is, and maybe ways to even improve it from the G1000 implementation.

One thing I always wished for was a way to, once you've recorded your loop and started playback, if you stop the loop for a bit of improvisation, or a bridge that only comes up occasionally, I would like the option to continue the loop from the stop point, or go back to the top of the loop. Easy enough with a Play AND a Continue button.

Any G1000 users out there with ideas to improve an already brilliant feature?

Bump........

Can't believe you get all excited about each incremental improvement in your arrangers, yet here is a fundamental improvement to the whole experience, and it gets barely a yawn..........

That's enough time on the 2nd page........

C'mon, if you DON'T like this feature, TELL ME WHY NOT.........

(If you do, add your voice, the manufacturers are listening [maybe!])

When what you want doesn't happen, learn to want what does.

Ian

When what you want doesn't happen, MAKE IT HAPPEN.......!

Anyone who is currently using Roland's chord sequencer is wondering 'how the hell am I going to be able to do what I do now, on ANY newer arranger?' and probably deciding NOT to upgrade.

LOST PROFITS........! Now that ought to get their attention!

Making a half a dozen or so special keyboards with chord sequencers for the interested people on this site, hardly seems profitable.

Then again, you may know something the manufacturers do not.

Using the philosophy,"if something doesn't move, use a bigger hammer", will hardly work in this case, considering the lack of interest shown so far.

I commend you on your diligent, but rather futile, quest.

Perhaps your persistance will pay off, and some independent company will make a chord sequencer module,(like some of the gizmos Anantek used to make) that can be retrofitted to an existing or new arranger of the individual's choice(Roland, Yamaha, Korg, or whatever).

In any case, good luck with your petition.

All the best,

Ian

Ian, perhaps the reason the lack of interest in this feature (by manufacterers & players alike) has more to do with the lack of awareness (knowledge) of what this feature offers. I'm first to admit that until Dikki brought this to my attention, that this feature (which was apparently available on my Roland RA800) was even available to me. Only after reading his explaination of the 'way it works' do I now see it's terrific benefit while performing, allowing you to switch back and forth between auto-accomp arranger mode playing, and traditional piano style playing during the solo section of a song. For this reason, I think it's a terrific feature to add to arranger keyboards, Roland, Yamaha, and other arranger brands as well, and hope it gets re-instituted on Roland arrangers, and offered on Yamaha and other competing brands as well. If Roland re-introduces this on its future models as well as jazz chord type recognition, I'd certainly seriously re-consider a Roland arranger again. - Scott

I agree, wholeheartedly, Scott.

It would be nice to see the return of the chord sequencer, but I believe it would take a far greater number of requests than seen on this forum for a manufacturer to take notice and add such a feature.

It is not something I would use very often, and it's inclusion on a Roland arranger would hardly be enough to overcome the other shortcomings that have made me feel my choice of Yamaha was the right one for me.

Ian

i don't imagie it would be too difficult, assuming the keyboard has some sort of writeable memory area (hdd, or ssd or RAM or whatever) it would just a matter of someone programming it into the operating system( although thats easier said than done , BUT it can be done!!)..its not like the old days when it was all on hardware ROM chips....

Hi All

Although it does not have a 'chord sequencer' per se, the Roland EXR-7 (note only the 7 not EXR-3 or EXR-5) has a full piano mode for playing arranger styles. This allows you to play the 76 keys in a piano style and have the arranger follow you with correct backing chords. This feature is the reason I bought the EXR-7. It also allows chord inversions to be voiced properly.

It is available also on the Korg PA-80 but needs to be set up properly. I have not seen a lot of other makes of arranger other than Yamaha and Casio but have never seen this feature on other keyboards.

Cheers

Kevin

Kevin.... the pianostyle mode is completely different to the Chord Sequencer (although you CAN use pianostyle to record the changes the first time around, then keep playing the second time in full piano mode without worrying about having to play full chords and inversions just to keep the chord recognition correct)

I guess my problem is, other than piano or organ, I can't play any solo sound without wanting to 'bend it like Beckham'!....... I just can't...... A solo without inflection is just too machine-like for me, and how the hell do you use the bender if your left hand is always playing chords??

Back to the front, you slacker..........!

Who knows, maybe Roland will surf in and read this one day......?

Diki,

Both of my current arrangers ( PA80 and MZ2000 ) have this feature. I never really gave much thought to it being useful to a live performer, at least not for live arranger play, but now I can also see where you're coming from with this and why it might be useful to a live performer as well.

Instead, I thought of the songwriter who wants to "scratch pad" new ideas or songs, or perhaps who wants to build a quick tune to turn into a sequence ( that might later be used in a live performance ). Now though, we see the live player who can also use this feature. Personally, I like apps like Band in A Box and Jammer that allow me to step enter chords with patterns when playing around with new ideas.

Unfortunately, on this one Roland owners are out in the cold. Why don't I include Yamaha ? Because One Man Band and XG works exist, ( although I think at this point XG works is now just a distant memory ). Both of these apps have the capability of step entering chords. You can simply transfer the finished product to your arranger.

There was a time when I lamented a bit that this forum seemed to gravitate mainly toward the live player. Two things have changed for me since then. One- I've become more of a live player myself. Two- I came to realize that for me at least, workstations ( hardware or soft ) and software apps like FL, Orion, and the like are perhaps preferable choices for writing or making new music.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-06-2006).]

This is the reason for me. I've never been introduced to it. I can see this being very useful in several applications. The funnest one that comes to mind is jammin' with other musicians. Set up a basic set of chord progressions using the arranger, then loop those back while playing live. Then you would be free to really have more fun using the whole keyboard and not worring about making all the chord changes with the left hand.

I for one like the idea of what this particular feature would add to my keyboard.

I want it!

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts


[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 08-06-2006).]

My i30 sequences allows me to change tempos, variations, fills, fade in fade out, ritard, change instruments, styles etc on the fly. That's why I bought it. I needed to have this feature for playing my sax so as not to get bored to death playing every song the same exact way every time.(ie SMF) That would drive me to the top of the wall and I'm more than 75% of the way up already.

I was just thinking of playing the sax only when I started, but that's all changed. I do vocals and play the keyboard mostly now.

I have a few sequences that I sing with and do sax solos also.

Some of the PaX owners are disapointed also because it doesn't have this feature either.

AJ, and brickboo........ correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Korg make you enter the chords in advance, NOT record them in real-time, while you are playing?

This live interactivity is the backbone of the Roland system........ at any time, during a song, you can hit 'Record' and it will remember whatever changes you play until you hit 'Play', upon which it will immediately start to loop those changes until you either hit 'Stop' in the Chord Seq section (upon which it will vamp on the last chord received until you start playing changes again) or hit 'STOP' for arranger stop.

So this loop can be ANYTHING your imagination wants it to be at the time you think it up........ It can be whole verses and choruses, it can be little one chord vamps, it can be extended changes for soloing over, ANYTHING.

AFAIK, there is NOTHING other than older Roland arrangers (I think the G1000 was the last) that have this ability, and the only people that don't miss it are people who have never used it. Once you get into it, it is hard to do without.

Personally, I blame Roland's demonstrators and salesmen for not educating the buyers about what is the most revolutionary feature an arranger ever had. It was light years ahead of any other Chord memory implementation, and they failed to capitalize on it, and make it a proud 'feature', and now it is gone......... lost in the fog of neglect and ignorance.

Shame, Roland, SHAME ON YOU..........

Diki,
Both the PA80 and MZ2000 allow me to either step enter chords or record them in real time ( and later edit if I wish to make changes ) using each one's respective pattern sequencer. What I did not know and am somewhat surprised to learn is that this feature is no longer available on the PA1x series boards.

On a happier note, I just converted some G70 styles for use on the MZ2000. Even untweaked, they pretty much sound better on the MZ than it's own internal styles do. The MZ has a function built in that allows the user to auto convert both Roland and Technics styles to MZ format right inside of the board.

Years ago, I replaced my first MZ with the PA80 since I felt the major weakness of the MZ were it's styles and the lack of a harmonizer. I've pretty much learned to do without the harmonizer ( until of course I get my next board ), as the one on the PA80 isn't all that great to begin with. The G70 and maybe to a lesser extent the KN7000 styles have given it a whole new life for me, and it now sounds good enough that when I do decide to purchase my next arranger, either a G70 or perhaps a T2, I'm pretty much thinking of keeping the MZ as my backup hardware and putting the "for sale" sign on the PA80 ( although it will in reality be a 3rd stringer since my software arranger will be my actual backup ).

In reality, I like the MZ's lead piano, guitar and sax voices much better than the corresponding ones on the PA80, and the MZ is just more fun to play and mess with... for me anyway. Who'd have thunk it ?

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-06-2006).]

AJ, are you telling me that the PA80 does exactly the same as the Roland system - interactivity, starting and stopping seamlessly with arranger play? (the WHOLE point of it you can start and stop using this feature without interrupting regular arranger usage). Is the PA80 really the same..........?

And if it is, is there some kind of conspiracy? I mean. if ONE company drops it, it's just happenstance. If TWO.......... conspiracy?

Just fricken' unbelievable that no-one 'gets' it, not even Korg AND Roland?

Just tell me to STFU........

(Or sell me a used RA800)!

Diki.....9 out of 10 people didn't even know what the Chord sequencer was on the G1000, G800, RA800 (the one Scott owned? ).......so its no wonder that Roland deemed it useless & not necessary for the masses ......apparently the only good pros that used it were Diki & Fran.....other Uhmmmmmm pros like Scott didn't even know it existed on his instrument its amazing that such a great useful features can go unnoticed & now years later in 2006 it mysteriously re-appears as a great idea?

The Korg does not work like the Roland G's..Casio had a model in 1987[I think it was a CT6500 or a CT7000] that worked real time..It was not as flexible as the advanced design Roland Chord sequencer..I do not recall if the MZ2000 works like the old 87 Casio model...

AJ have you tried the MZ ..recording say the 1st verse into the sequencer live and immediately looping it while you play over it...The old Casio did this but the fills and variations were not available and you could not change the styles while playing back..like the Roland...

I looked at it as a "sample and hold" function on the Casio..

Yep, I'm first to admit that I'd over looked that (hidden?) feature on my R800. If I'd known about it, perhaps I might still be (like Fran with his G1000) playing the R800 today (not!) . I'm in full support with Dikki that not only does this feature need to be incorporated on all arrangers, but benefits promoted to potential arranger keyboard buyers as well. Before I'm getting a Roland arranger again though, Roland needs to first to join the other major arranger keyboard manufacterers (Korg, Yamaha & Ketron) and incorporate jazz (rootless style) chord voicings in their auto accomp chord recognition.

Scott