Please read the following (Jan 2003) thread :
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/005528.html

YamahaUS answers more or less the Tyros has standard size keys..... and I disagreed very much.

I too had problems with the toy-ish keys as I was 'feeling' the Tyros.

Perhaps you should give the SD1 another try Dave ? The key-feel is perfect and with the latest OS a keyboardist HAS to love her

Roel

Maybe we are misinterpreting Dave's mood and taking a real love problem for a technical problem And he's just refusing love in his life

My own experience looks a lot like Scott's. I have a piano background and I prefered the module X4 to the X1 ONLY because of the key feel, and had two controllers in the past. One fully weighted 88 keys Fatar and a semi-weighted Kurzweil 76. I sold the first (although the size and feel were fantastic - no practical use) and am using less and less the combination Kurzweil+X4 in favor of the Tyros. I am accepting and adapting well to 61 synth weighted keys. I even prefer now the synth keys to play certain sounds (accordion, flute, guitars, all synthy sounds, etc).

-- José.

I never had any trouble swapping from my grand piano to the 740 and back again. There's a difference of around half an inch over five octaves. Feels just the same to me apart from the bungy action on the PSR. Maybe that's UD's problem - the crappy action on the PSR. The keys are a one piece plastic molding, fixed at one end, and relying on the natural springiness of the plastic. Talk about cheap.

Bryan

Hi José Glad to hear you're enjoying the Tyros. You and I indeed seem to be sharing a lot in common as I too used to need to utilize a fully weighted keyboard controller (Fatar 1176) + Roland RA800 arranger, but have since learned to adapt (quite happily) to the synth action & MUCH lighter weight of the mere 27 lb 61 note Tyros. If the BEST quality sound & styles housed in a light weight & compact package is important to you (as it is for me), then the Yamaha Tyros 'fits the bill' perfectly and well worth the short adjustment time possibly required (if at all) to adapt to playing its almost imperceivably narrower keys. Another plus to the Tyros solution is NO more backaches !

Hi Bryan: In addition to it's improved sounds & styles, The BIG advantage of the Yamaha Tyros over the PSR2000/2100 & 740 keyboards is that it's keyboard action is solid and responsive and doesn't feel spongy & flimsy like my PSR2000. I feel I'm able to play with a lot more musical expression on the Tyros than the later, so prefer performing with it than the 2000, even though the 2000 does have built in speakers. - Scott

I'm with UD on this one, but with a nod to what Scott says too. Although I can tell a difference in key size immediately when going from the PA80 to the Motif ES, I can adjust back and forth with no problem. What makes it bad for me on the 2000 / 740 etc is the flimsy key feel.

I just can't get the right feel for my solos and even some of my rythym work on such flimsy keys, and it definitely affects my expressiveness. I've owned and played on all kinds of boards and really all were ok and I was able to adjust to most of them with no difficulty.. that was until I had the 530 / 740 / 2000.

I can easily play the Tyros and adjust with no problem, but the key feel is a good bit sturdier on the Tyros. I'd have gotten a Tyros instead of an ES if it were more practical for me ( it sounds great ) .. I could live without the speakers ( though I don't want to ). Lack of plug in capability and powerful editing features along with a few other things kept me from spending the bucks on it though.

I dunno UD.. maybe the kn7k for now, then by the time you're tired of it maybe the PA1x will be out and you can play with that one for a bit...

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 10-12-2003).]

Boys, boys, boys ..... calm down. This is ME you're talking about remember? I am well aware of the ups and downs of all the major toys on the market, and although I do adjust (somewhat) to the smaller size keys on the Yamaha (sorry Steve, they ARE smaller) I still have trouble playing from the heart when I get "into" the music.

The arranger style of playing was never my thing. Sure, I USE arrangements, but not in the maner that most of you do. I rarely play melody lines with the right hand. I ALWAYS fill up the sound with my own right hand chords to make the arrangement my own design. Most times, I play bass lines, but if I DO use the auto-guys, the left hand sound is ALWAYS silent to give me more room to fill up the sound with chording. I don't like a cluttered sound, and my left hand is mostly "at home" playing bass (not chords)so I play pretty aggresivly with the left hand. Not just triggering a chord a measure and waiting for the next thing to happen.

As for my Tyros purchase - I only did it as a financial move. I had a dissatisfied Tyros customer that wanted my PA80 because of the superior SMF playback, so I swapped. The Tyros is new and more marketable in the streets than a 2 year old PA80. It was just good business sense. I never intended to keep it too long. Anyone want it?

My love life? How DARE you even go there.
I have no comment except to say this: Any mention of "love" in my posts is referring to a bond between muself and an INSTRUMENT. My private life is, just that at the moment.

The kn7000 - It has a great sound system, and a better than average sound set. Sure there are things I don't like, but if I can set up a Rhodes and a bass .... I can get happy right quick. The drums are weaker than the piano, I think. I kinda liked the piano, but was less imopressed with the drums.
I carry a mixer and vocalizer, so I'm covered there as well. It's just a tool - I can adjust to weak sounds before I adjust to abnormal keys.

I just want to be comfortable PLAYING the keys. I can't be distracted by constantly hitting the cracks, or trying to get "feeling" that isn't there from a flimsy action.
I want more.
I need more.
I will GET more ...... someday.

The 2100 has a lot of stuff going for it, but not from a piano players point of view. It is, and always will be - AN ARRANGER first. Well, sue me, but I don't want an arranger.
I want a pro keyboard that HAS AN ARRANGER in it. My old days with separate pieces are looking pretty good, in retrospect.
Moog for bass, Rhodes for chords, and Yamaha drum machine (or SR16) Sounded awesome...juyt took up too much space and time to set up. In those days - I set up for MONTHS at a time in the same location. No more. It's all one night stands now. Got to travel light.

I've had 'em all, and I want the comfort zone back. This wave of plastic junk is dragging us all downwards, and we don't even realize it till it's too late. My piano chops are definatly slipping since playing the Yamaha stuff. It's a crime. I have developed certain muscle tone and hand positions that are second nature, and now Yamaha is telling me that "It's all in my mind. The keys are NORMAL."
No thanx Yamaha .... they are NOT NORMAL - they are SMALL, skinny and pretty much lifeless (on the 2100 sreies, anyway).

Whew.....that sounded angry. It wasn't meant that way. I just have to call it as I see it. No holding back where my craft is concerned. I'm serious about this business, and I need someone to make a serious kb that is meant to be played by PIANO players that are trained on full sized keys. Teachers ask that their students practice on them - we should DEMAND that we get full size, STANDARD keys in a pro instrument.

I don't want to REadjust. I want to play the piano fingerings that I practiced. The same fingerings that work flawlessly (on a GOOD night) on Roland, Casio, Korg, Farfisa, Ketron and Technics gear.

Whick reminds me....SD1 ? - Silent slab. Sorry. No can do. In my world, speakers are NOT an option.

There- that's enough whine for tonight. My flimsy, skinny keys made my rent money tonight, so all things considered ......
It wasn't a bad day's work. I just wish the comfort zone was back. My bass chops are going to slip if I have to conform to this new "standard" of lessness.

I've posted before that I've never had a problem adjusting to any size of keys (be they full size, Yamaha slightly shrunk, or Casio CZ101 mini) but I've never really analysed how I did it.

This was noticed some years back by a music-teacher relative who commented that I never look at the keys. This may not be totally true but certainly its impossible to sing and look, so I play a fair amount blind. In fact if there are big distractions / idiots on the dance floor I even close my eyes for a while!

So my thanks are due to Scott, who has nailed the reason. I am indeed a black key feeler. I've never noticed it before but thats exactly whats happening.

You learn something every day....

UD. Having spent the past 7 days with the New Korg PA1XPro 76 keys, you are going to love these keys. If the 61 key version is half as good it will still be better than the keys on the Tyros.

Graham

My 2cents......

Honestly The keys on most Arranger KB's out today and I've played many don't hinder my playing at all, [I'm running a 2k on stage for now] I just adjust to whatever I need to with my style of playing.
Good on Board Speakers and .....
Real Time Navagation is my pet peeve....but thats anoher Topic.
Some Day [sigh]