Hi!
I m Dan from France, I have a Ketron SD1, and after long pleasure time playing with it, some no corrected bugs, limitations, and other things, make me finally the desire of programming a PC software to do what I need...
I know that this forum is the best arranger forum on internet, with a lot of live one man band players.
The project is to create a software very customable, with possibility for example to select the model of keyboard you want to emulate on the screen.
I see OMB and LiveStyler software, but since I m software engeener, i like to manage the things differently. More oriented for the Live, as I play often on parties...

So, if you want, we will create our software with all suggestions that are positives.

The first subject of this post is the first step of making an arranger: Algorithm to recognise the chords.
So the first function will convert midi notes from a MIDI input chanel to a Chord on the screen...
I know that there is some different advice on that question, (each company have its model) so let the discussion start
I am waiting your post! (or link)
please detail your prefered algorithm (if one key pressed, or 2 , or 3 , or 4, or more, and what the chord you want for all possibles combinations)

Dan this is a great idea.

Arranger software would be more interesting if it could host soundfonts and vst's. That way the arranger software is one complete package. Of course this would be further in the development. Personally, since I come from an organ background, I always use full fingered chords, but sustained chords on my Yammy are not recognized correctly if not in root postion. It would be great and flexible if chord recognition could be customizable by the user. The notes C,E,G,A could be an am7 (most likely), but could also be a C6.
Starkeeper

Hi Dan
just wondering what you were going to do as far as styles go. Each of the companies, Yamaha , Roland, Technics, Korg etc have their own style formats. An arranger isn't an arranger without styles.
Live Styler & OMB both load Yamaha format styles.
So just wondering what you had in mind.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DAN.2000:
[B]Hi!
I

I think that you should deal with chord recognition computer way: implement Roland and Yamaha and Korg and Ketron algorithm, then permit to musician select most appropriate to her.

Main difficulties with software arranger is variety of sounds and effects. This mean that impossible to create "factory presets" and this lead to situation similar that with G70 that is very good instrument exept buggy factory presets...

My wish list to software arranger -- style morphing, soloists/riffs(pads), style part variator (karma-like or continuator-like), possibility play native (not converted) styles from several vendors (Yamaha, Roland etc.). All other things we can get from synthesizers, not arrangers.

Hello Dan du France,
All current software arrangers lack a
capacity to play "acidized" wav files.
Now if you could incorporate the ability to
play this type of file with the same manipulation as the PSR style files, it would
be quite an impressive achievment.
For example, have each "SETUP" contain the
complete .sty file with all the .wav files saved with that setup. So if a style file
has 4 main patterns, 4 fills, 2 intros, 2 endings, it could also have up to 8 acidized
wav files. You would have a separate set
of buttons activating the wav files, and
have each wav programmable in that "setup"
to either play once and stop, or loop indefinately, or loop until a style section
is changed. These "acidized" wavs should,
of course, follow the curent MIDI tempo, and
should also be transposable in pitch whenever
the currently playing sty file is transposed.
This leads to one more programmable feature
of each wav, which is to either ignore transposing(such as for rhythm riffs) or to follow transposing.
Good luck.

asafar - thanks! Sure the oriental playing will be take in considerations!

Starkeeper - Exactely, the Soudfonts, Vsti, and Vst plugsin effects are in my needs for this arranger!
I finnally understand that it shold be a good idea to make the recognisation customable! I m imagining all combinations possibles for one chord... If someone car help me to enumerate them :
We must do a table with for example the C chords :
Cm : all the kinds : C Eb / C Eb G / Eb G C...
C :
C7 :
CM7
....

First, we need to define all kind of existing type of chord (m, M, 7th...)
and for each all the combination possibles

And after we will do it for all notes (just via transposition, I don't think it's interesting to get the reconngnisation different between notes! what do you think?)

And after we need to see if there is combination in double or triple between different notes, and each one will choose it's version of the thing !

rikkisbears- Of course styles are important ! Since Yamaha styles are in midifile format, and the format is very known, it will be the standard for the Software, but perhaps after, we will make compatible with other Styles format...
But it's a more difficult cause the compagnies never tell us the format specifications, and it need a hacking work to understand all... !But it will be good to have a soundfont package by style manufacturer, for example if you load a Ketron Pattern, it play it with sampled live drums of ketron...

ailev - Of course after the software is finished, it will be very good if we make a very good soundfont with sampled sounds, with sampled loops, not limited in size of memory (why not 1 Gb of samples played directly from hard drive) and very good styles with the ketron type live drums!
It sould be cool if all good members from us add their contributions to make a strong Factory Preset, I will take only the best things, and will compile them for us..
The other arpeggios things I will see them later.

The future is computers !

And Vquestor, Yes we need a track for cutted wav loops as ketron made, to be streachable in tempo. The new KETRON midjay start to do that.
Note for midjay users that the ketron software is here on the www.ketron.it for loops

For persons who play jazz and other types of music, rootless chord voicing would be a must in any type of set-up.
For example, F C E would be recognized as a D minor 9 instead of a F major 7. So you don’t have to play the root note of the chord (the D in the above example) the software would automatically recognize it as the rootless chord.

It will be interesting to create a "standard" percussion kit, I mean for the track number 11 on the sequencer. I think this doesn't exist on the GM norm.
Stam

I would like to second Starkeeper's suggestion of making a software arranger that is also a VST host. This would greatly simply things from a user's standpoint. A VST host would have soundfont capability because it could host rgcaudio's free sfz soundfount player.

Here is an idea for chord recognition. Allow the user to set a scale for one-finger chord recognition. If a user selects no scale, all one finger chords are major. If a scale is selected, it is assumed that a one finger chord calls for a third from the scale. For example, if a Cmaj scale is selected, c,f,g, trigger major chords, while d,e,a,b trigger minor chords. If the player wants a different chord, it can be more fully fingered--for example, in Cmaj scale, c-eb triggers the Cm chord.

Seventh chords can be triggered by playing the real note to the left. In other words, 2nd intervals are interpreted as sevenths based on the higher note of the interval. Thus, in Cmaj scale, Bb-C is a Cmaj7th.

Well if you are only going to use sfz as
your sound source, then a VST host is not
needed, as all you would need is the
standalone free version of sfz linked with
Midi-yoke. The problem with sfz and all
current SF players(as Frank has pointed out
many times)is XG drum kit change recognition. It would be great if some SF player would actually do this correctly.
But as for the free sfz doing this, it
probably will never happen, being that the
company was purchased recently by Cakewalk.
As far as VST hosting in general, it can
be quite a can of worms, and I would suggest making the user friendly arranger portion as good as possible, and leave hosting to such experts as Forte and Console.
Your other alternative is to require a
Creative SF compatible soundcard to use
with your program, as I think Frank has
used this and ,I think, said handles XG well.



[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 02-22-2005).]

I disagree. I wish OMB could host Vsti's directly, instead of having to work through a seperate interface. SFZ is ok, but it's far from being the best host for soundfonts.

I don't like having to open up LS Pro or another app to host vst instruments when I use OMB. I think it's a waste of CPU. There are other good GM / GS modules that I prefer to use instead of soundfonts. Band in a Box hosts DX instruments without a hitch.

AJ

Everything I said was prefaced by "if you
are only going to use sfz as your sound
source".
I think a good solution would be
to make the software arranger itself as
a VST, which could then be loaded into
Forte which will remember all modules and
setups and load on one click.
What do you think Dan du France?

Yes, these would be advanced MULTI-PADS.
And how about support for regular PSR multipad files? No software arranger does
that at the moment.

A Vst version would be ok, but I'd still want a standalone as well. In some cases, Forte and LSP are just an extra step that I don't need. The interface in a Band in a Box works fine for me just the way it is with all of the dxi ( vst ) synths I use. If it responded as a real time arranger does, I'd be set.

I don't necessarily care for the idea of having to have a creative soundcard either. This works fine for my PC setup, as I use an old SB live to host soundfonts, but I don't want to have to have a Creative card on my laptop ( yet another USB device ) along side my Midiman Quattro.

I do like the multipad concept very much, particularly if it includes an option such as the PSR series have to make user multipads.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-22-2005).]

Hi ,
I suggested Multi Pads to Jos back in Vers6 OMB (I think). Hopefully one day he may see fit to included them. I miss them.

Maybe if we all asked nicely ( haa haa)

best wishes
Rikki

p.s. Be nice if the tracks that make up the styles could be replaced by audio loops ( recorded live on real instruments) Is that something along the lines you were suggesting vquestor?

Hi AJ,
they now make an Audigy PCMCIA card. Supposedly supports soundfonts. I ordered one anyway, anything would have to sound better than my inbuilt card. Ididn't want an external one.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Dan!

I have an idea which I would prefer to tell you about privately. Please email me at

flatfoot50@juno.com

so I can send you a reply

Douglas Wolfe
Sacramento CA, USA

I've had this same idea a couple of years ago, but I soon forget about it for an absolute lack of collaboration on the programming side.

So, first of all, which OS?
Windows, Mac or Linux?

Then, which language? (.Net ...)

Then again, wich libraries? (DirectX...)

After all this choiches, we have to know some project specs. As an example, I hope that you will consider standard MIDI format for styles files, so that it will be easy to build styles with any soft sequencer.

Regarding chord recognition algorithm, this is absolutely not easy, because you know that same position can lead to different chords.
Following starkeeper example, how can you decide if those notes belong to Am7 or to C6?
I think that this problem has no solution, and it needs more informations to properly solve it.
One way to decide correct chord is adding another lower note which will help the machine in this decision: if lower note is C then the chord will be C6; if it's A it will be Am7.

Another thing to think about. Current arrangers can transpose what they are playing following your chord progression (and this can be relatively easy to do, applying some simple math to MIDI notes events); but they chan change a major progression in minor or 7th or whatever chord they recognize. This is not so easy: to change from major to minor you have to identify all 3rd notes, and lower them of half a tone; from major to 7th you have to add 7th note; and things get more complicated as chords go more complicated.
Remember that all this computing work should be performed in real time, because when you change the chord on the keyboard you expect the style to immediately change, according to the new chord.

Anyway, this message is for offering you my support in this project. If you decide to develop it for Windows using VB (6 or .Net) and DirectX I will be proud to help you.




[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 02-23-2005).]

One more thing:
people here already started asking incredible things for this "product" (sound fonts, VST...).

Easy, men.

I think that what we have to build is simply a black box able to recognize a couple of chords and able to correctly transpose and modify the original MIDI sequence according to the recognized chord. Black box output will be a MIDI sequence, so that any of us can route it anywhere we like.

"Following starkeeper example, how can you decide if those notes belong to Am7 or to C6?"

How about using pedals? It could solve all the different chord combinations.

I'll throw my hat in the programming side as well. I have VB/.NET/C++ and C# experience.

I also have much experience with User Interfaces and the Human Experience in interface design.

Al

I am accustomed to using inversions, playing every chord in root postion would be distracting. My left hand can change chords without me looking left, I have enough of other things to do. This is a good example of why a flexible chord recognition systme would be helpfull. I did bring up the example, but rarely, if ever use C6, am7 would be MY preffered default.
Starkeeper

Mmm.. this will lead to a product loved by Am7 players and hated by C6 players... We need a market survey to determine how many Am7 and how many C6 we have; then, how many of those are willing to have such a program ... :-()

No. The program needs to be flexible, so that I can set it up to get my default am7 and you can set it up to get C6 when you play it in root postion. Scotty Yee can set it up to get rootless chords. (I'm surprised Scotty hasn't wade in).
Starkeeper

Hi to everyone !
I m very happy that there is a lot of musicians thinking as me
My real dream is to make the best arranger product avaible for live music and keeping it very simple!
I just finished the first step : My software recognize the keys pressed on any chanel of any midi port of the PC, So now I need to make the Algorythm witch transform the combination of keys to a CHORD Name.

WHAY I THINK ABOUT THE RECOGNITION :
-We need to define together for each number of keys pressed, the chord to display.
WHEN MULTIPLE CHOICES ARE LOGICALY CORRECT, WE NEED TO CHOOSE ONE OF THEM IN A OPTION MENU.
my first thinks are :
We will take just the example of The C key :
-If just C Key is pressed, The possibility are C Major Or C Minor. All arranger keyboard take C major, but cause it's just a choice, we need to let the choice.
-If 2 keys are pressed :
C + C# = C# Maj7
C + D = D7 (why major? perhaps we will make a global choice to make some rules as : all chord without the 3rd to be major or minor)
C + D# = C m
C + E = C Maj
C + F = F
C + F# = C dim
C + G = C
C + G# = G# Maj (I better like the Ab Maj so we will let the possibility of show the H or b on chords and notes)
C + A = Am7 or C6
C + A# = C7
C + B = C Maj 7
When there is only 2 keys, even you invert the order of the keys, the chord is still the same (C+A=A+C)
Test my first thing on your arranger and let me know if I m true.
Now we need to make the 3 Keys pressed...
Your help are welcome

Now I will try to answer to everyone :
-to the genesys: It's ok for custom rootless chord voicing.
-STAM: I don't thing changing the General Midi format is a good thing, but add a track with a special Audio Loop, and cause the SoundFont format is open, you can make your set of percussion, but it's another subject.
-Clif Anderson: Yes I want my project to be VST + ASIO Hosting, but for now I want to make a good arranger program, and just using Midi Yoke + rgcaudio's free sfz soundfount player can make a very good sound. I want to really work also on the factory preset thing, so each on of the voices must be very high quality. You can already send to me if you have a really good sampled sound of an intrument to be include in the software...
Im not reaaly aggree with the scalable fingerd recognition, cause each song have a different scale, sometimes it could have 2 scales... I don't see the recognition as a SONG thing, but as a GENERAL (and personnal) way of playing. But why not... I listen to the idea.
-Vquestor: Perhaps the drum program change sended from my software to sfz can be modified to let sfz change it correctely. And yes, for now I will do the arranger thing the best as possible.
-Bluezplayer: I like the idea too of DXi, VSTi for each track,(and vst and DX plug ins for effect) we will see how the project will come...But for starting, Forte can do the thing good with my software.
-Vquestor: It's not Dan DU France, but Dan DE France congratulation on your first french lesson... oh ! what about my english? huuuuu.
The problem is that a VST isntrument can't generate MIDI notes, but just AUDIO sound, so my software is on TOP of the chain, and give note to be played by the VST instruments...
About multipad, I had only the psr2000 for 2 weeks, but i don't reaaly now what so special with them, I will see for suporting them.
-rikkisbears: yeah audio loops will be avaible in one chanel, but I want to know what the most standard format of cutted loop to implement it!
-RicFreak have you msn? we will discuss about different technologies choice, but my choice is : PC, Windows, and less libraries as possible...my msn adress is dan2000z@hotmail.com.
Yes we must do some complicated algorythm, but don't be affraid : Audio realtimes effects or Virtual Instruments are 10000 more complicated than midi traitments. And the latency is very acceptable!Rememeber that if a 1980 10 mHz arranger keyboard was able to do the thing, A 3000 mHz computer of today can do it... Of course the way of programming will influe...
-FreeStyle: not pedal to say between each chords when it's more simple to add a 3rd note with your left hand
-kbrkr: take my msn too, we will discuss too...If you want to help me on the skins or your ergonomics ideas

So for now : we must continue on the recognition algorythm.
A first version with just chord recognition can be avaible for testing and suggestions.

So : 3 notes together different choices, and
List to me all the avaible type of chord to be avaible : Maj, Min, 7th...#13,25,42,450 lol

Dan DE France lol or Dan.

Dan,

Please be sure to map all the functions to MIDI (sys ex) commands and provide return status, so that commercially available MIDI controllers can be used to control various functions as mapped. The status signals can be used to drive the indicator lights associated with each button.

This will go a long way in making this a user-friendly performance system, rather than point and click studio only system.

Also, as other have indicated before, playing existing styles (even from only one manufacturer) is a big plus.

Good luck,

Alex

Rikki,
I had asked Jos to add multipads back
in version 5. I know it is no easy task, but
perhaps he is now close.
And regarding the audio loops,yes, they could
be played like a pattern, but could also
be played simultaneously with a pattern(if
desired by user). The loops could also be
set to play once and not loop, if desired.

Make sure the drums are on the standard
PSR channels 9 and 10. If you can correct
the program change malfunction of sfz, it
would be great.

-Bluezplayer: I like the idea too of DXi, VSTi for each track,(and vst and DX plug ins for effect) we will see how the project will come...But for starting, Forte can do the thing good with my software.[/QUOTE]
If you want multi-track hosting, also take
a look at SynthFont which only hosts VST/VSTi.
-Vquestor: It's not Dan DU France, but Dan DE France congratulation on your first french lesson... oh ! what about my english? huuuuu.[/QUOTE]
Mercee, Misyu Dan De France.

The problem is that a VST isntrument can't generate MIDI notes, but just AUDIO sound, so my software is on TOP of the chain, and give note to be played by the VST instruments...
-rikkisbears: yeah audio loops will be avaible in one chanel, but I want to know what the most standard format of cutted loop to implement it!
[/QUOTE]
For the audio loops, I would use the standard
ACID format which is also used by Cakewalk
products.

Of course it will be fully controblable via MIDI. In live we don't want one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keys

Hi Dan this is a great Idea no mater the functions you place in the software
the most important is to make ASIO engine drivers for the sound card I have seen Live styler and OMB and they have the same problem
too much latency so the only way to play with them is through an exterlan wavetable
it will be Succes to make an arranger program to play for Ex with HyperCanvas

Dan DE France, you may wish to include VST or DX Audio inputs so as allow for vocal harmonizers (Antares, DecaBuddy), Distortion Guitar effects, etc. As you know forte Ensemble already has this feature. So this would only be relevant if you built a standalone software arranger system with all the features included - VST/DX host and so on.

Dan

I think your plan to begin with a standalone arranger that comes with a base GM2 or XG sound set so that it works without requiring other programs. A later step would be to add VST-ASIO hosting, so that users can access a far greater range of quality sounds. I support most of Bluezplayer's and Frank's suggestions above.




[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 02-24-2005).]

GREAT IDEA!!!!!!

It'll be nice if it can be used for recording
.....

------------------
ViLo
HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, GET READY!

Great idea Dan, I used your USV Ketron software and was really happy with it, so I was into your idea when I first read the post.

I wanted to add a suggestion to the list of other great suggestions made earlier. I thought that one thing that would make this software THE ultimate is if you add a scene structure similar to the one from the Karma technology. For example, say we have a style made up of 4 arrangements, and each arrangement is made up of a drum line, 3 accompanying melodic lines, and a stretchable audio loop. The scene structure could be used as a master selection scheme. For instance, we can program scene 1 to select drums from arrangement 2, accompanying melodic lines from arrangement 3, etc… that way, switching between different scenes will practically give an unlimited number of combinations within the same style, all IN REAL-TIME. And again, since this is a pc-software based project, there are no virtual limits in terms of memory, resources… Which is the whole idea behind it. I am a computer engineer, and really interested in this idea as a keyboard player as well. I would love to chat with you about it and perhaps offer help if I can. Is it ok if I add you to my msn list?

Take care everybody

My msn : dan2000z@hotmail.com