Here is another thought:

How come that so many forum members around the world already ordered their T2 even before it hit the stores?
Those are only the ones we heard about on the forum, but there are many more that don't post but read. I know several of them.
Are they all stupied or misslead?
I don't think so.

I hear you rather have a T2 but don't have the money.
Is that Yamahas fault?
I don't think so.
I compared the price of my old Psr-8000 vs the new T2. The difference is not that much considering the years in between, but the difference in KB's is HUGE.

I'd rather have a Mercedes or BMW, but I don't have the money for it.
Is that their fault? I don't think so either.
So instead I drive something else.

We're talking top end model arranger KB's here.

Regarding 76 keys...... well; I don't have an answer either. Got me on that one..

However going from 76 keys (9000Pro) to T2 will definatly be an adjustment.
I had a long talk with Scott Yee about that who, as you know is trained in classical and Jazz piano and has a grand piano at home.

Most of the time we don't need 76 keyes, but it's nice to have.
Using the octave up and down feature on the fly will be the answer for me.
I watched my playing style and it doesn't happen to often.
If you're a giging musician, you value any saved size or wheight as many here on the forum can tell.

BTW Roel: what time do you go to bed?
It must be 1 or 2am in your neck of the flatlands?

Eric

Hey Donny, aren't you jumping the gun a bit? The Tyros2 has barely hit the streets and you're ALREADY wanting to barge ahead with the 'what's better' 'what's next' debate.


Donny, I have to agree with Eric Bott. I think we all need at least a little time to play the latest Tyros2 offering first, don't you? I mean, how can you tell where you're going until you know where you're at first.

As far as a PSR3000 followup, I'm sure Yamaha will oblige, but not at least until summer 06, and 'mark my words', as with the PSR3000 vs Tyros1, it won't include nearly all the bells & whistles of Tyros2. That would be marketing suicide for Yamaha. I can assure you that no new ground shattering technology will be included in the PSR3000 sucessor. I do predict though, that Super Articulation Voices will eventually appear (more sooner than later) in the Motif line. Like MegaVoices, it seems that the latest groundbreaking sound technolgy is first showcased with the Tyros model arrangers, and then

As far people's hope for a 76 note Yamaha arranger goes, I've been advised by people I know who have inside connections with the arranger keyboard development division at Yamaha Japan, that because the 76 note 9000pro turned out to be a huge financial disaster for them, they've developed COLD FEET about producing a 76 note arranger again in any near future.

Financially speaking, the 9000pro was a failed Yamaha grand experiment to expand arranger interest to the pro musician market. Unfortunately, pro musicians continued to show little/no interest in an arranger type keyboard, even with 76 keys, and the home hobbyist was more or less intimidated by it.

I personally could care less if the keyboard I own is marketed to/for a PRO or Hobbyist player. As a PRO arranger keyboard player, I don't need to convince myself or anyone else that I'm a pro, by what keyboard I play. I merely want the best lightweight 'portable' keyboard that inspires me to play my best. Tyros1 continues to delivery for me, and I expect Tyros2 to the same (+ a lot more) - Scott

I fully agree that Yamaha is probably correct in it's corporate reasoning behind snubbing the American arranger market... correct for a mega-corporation that is... sucks to be an American consumer. Everything related to the Tyros 2 seems designed for the target German market, right down to the fact that the info was released in German long before it was available in English. What will happen when system upgrades become available - German before English? Will American Tyros 2 owners be put on the back-burner in favor of the larger markets? When you think about it, do you really want to be part of 5% of anything? That's a pretty exclusive group, with a $4k membership fee and the probability that your investment will be seen as little more than a statistical blip by Yamaha.

Maybe I am an American musician, but over the past 30+ years I have invested a hefty amount of money in keyboards from Yamaha, Roland and Korg. And the thought that my business and trust in these products makes me less important as customer is pretty revolting. That's not to mention how much publicity and marketing I provide for these companies by displaying their products and corporate name to hundreds of other American consumers each week when I perform.

Time for a change...

On second thought, if NI's new GM module and it's 2gb of sample rom is as good as advertised, my only change might just be making the PA80 the backup to One Man Band, instead of the other way around ( as it is now ). Or maybe I'd consider trading the ES6 in for a 76 key repacement ( next generation of the Motif series even ), as the current ES itself makes for a pretty good kb and controller to boot in my system.

Short of that, after my previous experiences with a brand new "fresh off the shelf" PSR 2000 and a just released 740 before it, I'm content to let someone else betatest the latest and greatests this time around before I'd consider them. So the PSR3k or the "old" Tyros would suit me just fine.

This "new" voice articulation thing .. I doubt that there is any groundbreaking technology there, at least nothing that is going to surpass the sounds I already have.

I don't play out full time like some of the other members here, so my priorities are different. If it were a full time endeavor for me, then sure I'll say.. yes give me the latest and best tool, but.. I don't need to spend big bucks on something that probably wouldn't be particularly useful to me in my studio.

Realistically, for me Donny, in answering the original question, Yamaha will probably never make the arranger that I'd find useful for anything other than live work. I guess I'm a "5" percenter too, but then again my needs don't even fit neatly into that group either.

Ideally for me, which would put me in a much smaller niche market, something like the Korg Oasys, which is essentially the combination of a Triton Extreme on steroids, a modern Karma, and a true dedicated sampling machine, all in one, and then be able to add the best arranger functions to it... then they will have made the hardware solution for my studio. As a footnote though, the current Oasys is commanding what ? seven grand or so.. ? That might be a little out of my budget.

Hi Esh

you wrote: "What will happen when system upgrades become available - German before English? Will American Tyros 2 owners be put on the back-burner in favor of the larger markets?"

Not quite true.
Remember when Scott Yee asked for the fill to self function as an upgrade for the Tyros1?

Nobody on this forum really cared, so he asked me whether I could post his concerns on the German forum which I did.
Much to my suprise nobody answered either.
The German forum is hosted and monitored by Yamaha Germany.

We thought that this was the end of that, but not so: they did implement this feature with the next update.

Another thing: Nowadays more than ever it is important of who you know. Those with conections or power or both.

For those of us who bought a T2 and may need an update in the future: Just call on us German speaking fellas to post it on the German forum and of course on as many forums as possible since Yamaha is reading a lot of them. I know.

Instead of complaining all the time maybe we can work together and maybe we'll get a thing or two done this way. I've seen it many times.
Is'nt this what this great forum is all about (or at least should be?)

Eric

I am glad to see that those who have or will have the Tyros 2 are proud owners or would be owners.


I think that is an important element in having an instrument; feeling comfortable with it and willing to defend any perceived negative comments about it.


The “nothing” that the pre orderings/purchases were based on is nothing more than what is available on the Internet now.

My reference to wanting a Tyros 2 but not having money was not an attempt to blame Yamaha for that. It was to show that like with a lot of keyboard products (Tyros 2 G70, Pa1x midjay Motif, …) I am sure like others I would like to have. Realistically, with so many keyboard products on the market, one has to make a choice. There is where the “game” is played. All of the products have their strong points. But there is no one that has everything that everyone wants. So its either you play the game of swapping keyboards every year or so, or try to custom your own set-up to suit your needs since no manufacturer, whether willing or unwillingly, is not making the right keyboard.


Regarding 76 keys, I think a lot of people are tired of having to do work-arounds. Yes using the octave up and down buttons would work but why do that if 76 keys can do it?

Believe me I understand the business reasons for Yamaha (or any other manufacturer for that matter) doing what they are doing. And that’s fine their bottom-line is important to them. But I, along with many other persons, are tired of always helping their bottom-line and playing their games while “we” are not getting exactly what “we” want and are constantly having to do work-arounds.


Lets face it arrangers are not made for the profession gigging musicians in mind “we” are just unintended buyers of arrangers. So trying to get the features “we” want would be fruitless. So I think it is important for manufacturers to know that a good number of persons are dissatisfied and are prepared to go a different way if they don’t start listening to “us”. If “we” are a smaller market of a small market then manufacturers would have know problem in saying “forget about ‘them’, we will just continue to exploit the home and novice arranger market.”


The next keyboard manufacturer who hopes to unveil a flagship keyboard had better be doing their homework and not give “us” a half step in terms of features and ground breaking technology. They better be thinking in the way of a strong housing for the keyboard, a light 76 keyboard or both a 61 and 76 version, at least 8-track multitrack recorder with full editing features, XLR inputs, phantom power ... which would be important for gigging and studio musicians.

Even though I was orginally advised by Steve Deming, that the missing footpedal activated "repeating fill to self" feature on Tyros1 was intentional on Yamaha's part, I'm now 110% convinced that it was merely a Tyros OS programming over-sight, as all previous Yamaha keyboards had included it. I'm grateful that Yamaha Japan finally included it in a subsequent update. It's just too bad it took them (1+ years) so long to act.

Whether Yamaha Japan acted on my request from my postings on Synthzone, Eric's post on the German Yamaha Forum, or from my private email to them, forwarded to Yamaha Japan, from Steve Deming at Yamaha USA, I'll never know.

I'm happy to learn now, that Yamaha Japan's Arranger developers are finally reaching out beyond their own internal corporate buracracy to include arranger kb programming & musician input abroad, not only from Germany, but now the UK, and finally, even talented American musician-software programmers who may perhaps be able to best able to satisfy the arranger style needs of the American arranger keyboard player.

Scott

hi,
actually it would be interesting to know "who" buys arranger keyboards and what percentage is the hobbyist and what percentage is the professional musician.
I'm guessing, but I would imagine the bigger marketplace may well be the hobbyist. If so, with the advent of software arrangers, keyboard manufacturers may have something to worry about.
I've been a keyboard junkie for nearly 20 years.
I've had the
Technics Kn800,2000,3000,5000,7000.
Roland E20,E86,G800,VA7, RA90, Ra95.
Korg i2,i5
Yamaha PSR6700, 9000pro, DGX305
QY10,20,700 ( not true arrangers, but I thought I'd include them anyway)

In between the Kn5000 & Kn7000 I had a 2 year break. No doubt my list would have then also included the kn6000, kn6500 and the Roland g1000 as I normally update both kn & roland when each new model came out.

Won't bother listing synths, samplers etc

In the end I finally thought what for, I can now get my arranger functions thru a piece of software. There's no shortage of styles floating around and, the software can help me create my own . The one luxury I have is a beautiful Yamaha digital piano
(without arranger functions) that I use as a controller. My junkie needs are fulfilled.

Be interesting to see what the Tyros2 is like.
Can I afford it "yes"
Will I buy it "I doubt it", it's going to have to be pretty amazing to get me hooked again.

best wishes
Rikki

Thanx everyone for the super replies..I didnt know what to expect when I posted this question ...but after reading all the posts I hope the manufacturers read these things too and maybe it will sink in for future models.

Rikki, when you have a lot and you spend a little you still have a lot!!!

With all those keyboards you would not have time enough to make music?