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Nope, my above 'reply' was merely in response to what I purported a statement made in sincere on your part. It's not my business, and I don't care whether you (or anyone else here practices), but your statement gave me the distinct impression you (and perhaps a number of others here) have no interest in what happens to be one of the primary reasons I like to frequent arranger forums: to exchange arranger keyboard playing techniques & performance tips, and to hear other arranger keyboard player's produced music. That said, good to hear now that you still actually enjoy playing 2-3 hours a day.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-24-2007).]

One thing to remember if we were to talk more about arranger playing technique is that arranger playing technique is dependant on the brand and type of arranger one has.


Because when one tells of how he plays with his arranger, he would use features that are specific to his arranger.
One may talk about how he revoices a style on the fly to go from one song to the next using the same style. on his TOTL arranger. But that feature may not be available on a midrange arranger. So you may get a my own is better than yours argument.

Also when one is playing a 76 key arranger, he can do much more than one who plays a 61 key arranger and that would cause a big argument.

And even if we were to have these discussions, most of the players are concerned with entertaining rather than giving a good musical performance.

And posting music is a no no here because if a poster, with the intent of demonstrating a function or use of an arranger, get severely criticized for his playing or singing or sounds used, would feel bad and not want to post again. People do not want to take the demo post for what the poster intended it to do. They attack the poster’s ability and of course that poster has a very big ego.

I agreed with everything you said except the above comment.

A combination performance/superb musical performance is what the audience wants

zuki

Sad BUT Very true......great post!

Genesys, though I agree with what you're saying to a point, there are also playing techniques & features which are unique to yet universal to most all arranger brands & models :

intro, variation, fill, ending, start, stop buttons
auto-accomp styles
voices
left-right hand voice parts
user stored registration Setups
right hand melodic & soloing ideas
acoustic instrument emulation techniques
transitioning between variations
creative ways to to add fills & breaks
muting & adding auto-accomp parts
chord voicing & voice leading
arranger mode: pitch & modulation wheel techniques



I think it's merely the put down TONE used (ei: so and so's keyboard is: "crap", "piece of junk", etc that are precipitating the wars. Every keyboard brand & model has unique features to appreciate & showcase, and and I think this to be a wonderful opportunity for members to showcase them, either in their music, or describing how they are utilized when they perform. This kind of thing might even convince me to consider purchasing that brand/model next time.



It shouldn't. I think this would be a terrfic opportunity for 76 note keyboard players to SHOWCASE the advantages with an arranger mode song utilizing 76 keys. Afterall, confucious say: "a picture (song) is worth more than a thousand words".



I think both qualities (both musicianship & entertainer skill) can be appreciated on their own merits, or together.



Perhaps, but this problem lies in the fact that this forum lacks an active moderator (as other forums have) able to put out fires early enough on. That said, this situation could be completely avoided if people merely display common courtesy and respect towards fellow members. "Can" this happen? yes. Will it happen? It's anyone's bet.

Scott

Scott great post and ideas...but sadly this whole technique demoesqueish sharing scenario is a smoke screen to a previous Bombarded request for demos which in reality to share "How You Do it" falls into the same category.....Yes we would love this to all work, Yes learning from each other in a perfect world seems feasible,but its still a VERY PERSONAL thing in How we all play .... Yes with all the Video opportunities such as You Tube, Skype, Camfrog we can have a great learning experience between players in that we can all learn from each others way of doing it, Yes scott it all makes sense on paper or in theory....BUT will it happen....not likely.
Although in a smaller get together maybe 1 or 2 people in a P2P type of session on one of the programs mentioned above it could be super beneficial....I would suggest that you Video tape your technique lesson & then you can share with with whom ever you like online.....or although more difficult set up a time to do a group lesson online via camfrog/skype etc etc ...try a technique a week and see what happens......
a video is worth a thousand words.

If you have to ASK for a demo to understand why 76 is better than 61, well, like the jazzer said... 'You'll NEVER get it".

There's a reason pianos have 88 notes. Most piano players will even poo-poo using 76, and they'll definitely diss you for using plastic... Are you saying you've never heard a piano player?

As I pointed out earlier, UNLESS you use arranger mode 100% of the time (and even then, 61 restricts you if you choose to split the keyboard into three parts), you will run across musical situations that need more than 61 notes. I play a lot of LH bass, and I love keyboards that start at low E, perfect for bass parts (I'm not the biggest fan of 5-string basses!). I play piano (and electric piano - need 73 for that!) with a lot of bands (and a lot of SMFs!)... What is more to the point is, how often can you get away with LESS than 76 without compromise?

Of course failure to admit that you are making ANY compromise is the root cause of the whole thread. I am compromising about weight (don't REALLY want to hump 45 lbs if I can help it!), I'll admit that any day, but Scott actually ASKING to hear examples of stuff using a 76 as if he has no idea what it could be used for... that's just denial!

None of today's arrangers are designed to be used strictly as arrangers, or else, why the sequencer? Why the MP3 players, why workstation functions at all?

The minute you acknowledge any use of an arranger beyond simple LH chords, RH solo voice, you have to acknowledge the usefulness of extended range in the keyboard. Whether you choose to get an arranger with this extended range is often a function of, firstly, does your choice of arranger manufacturer even MAKE a 76?

I definitely laugh when I hear die-hard Yamaha users defend 61 keys. They HAVE TO. They have NO choice. If Yamaha DID make a nice 76 S900, I am sure at least a few of them would choose one, if not many, especially if they took the Ketron model and placed the bender above the lower keys so it didn't actually have a much bigger footprint that a T2. Until you actually DO have a choice, it is somewhat immaterial to defend your choice. You actually had none to make...

And choosing to play an acknowledged inferior keyboard action is a financial and practical decision, Ian, but it isn't a MUSICAL decision. Perhaps I am an idiot for putting that first and foremost, but what can I say? I just have different priorities than some...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-25-2007).]

Diki, calm DOWN & rel-a-x dude!

Reality check time. It's obvious you don't READ my postings very carefully. I NEVER ever ONCE claimed that 76 notes isn't better than 61. Here's exactly what I wrote:





As you can clearly see, I was specifically referring to "arranger mode" playing. I NEVER denied the benefits of 76 keys in solo keyboard playing. That said, I would LOVE the opportunity to appreciate the benefits (in an ARRANGER MODE performed song) which utilizes the full range of 76 keys, as I'm sure there are some songs which would benefit having this.

In conclusion: YES of course, if I had a choice, I certainly would prefer 76 vs 61 keys for the flexibility of being able to play in traditional pianistic style, and better yet, have the kb also include: fully weighted 'hammer action' keys to actually play the way you can on a piano, as even semi weighted keys doesn't allow for truly playing in a pianistic style. That said, to benefit having a far lighter & compact keyboard, I'm finding 61 keys quite acceptable, with the added "flexibility" of midi-ing up my Roland A33 76 note controller when desired.

Diki: It's obvious your priorities different than mine, so nothing less than 76 keys will do for you and I respect that.

If Yamaha ever comes out with a 76 note arranger which can fit in a similar sized case as T2, and not substantially heavier, I will be first on board to buy it, and this is exactly what I advocated & pressed for to Yamaha in my paid consultations with them. What they end up deciding to do is up to them, not me.

Ok Diki, have you calmed down yet?

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-25-2007).]

Diki, you are really getting more articulate with your insults...first "crappy" now "inferior".


I don't ask you to justify your reasons for using whatever keyboard suits you...why do you think it's any of your business about my choices?

I do find your posts interesting and informative, and I think you do contribute much to this forum, but please cut the insults...don't lower yourself to "flamer" status...it is very unbecoming and I know you're capable of much better.

All the best,

Ian

**HOGWASH. Personal preference, that's all. In the right hands, 5 octaves is plenty



** Tools, baby. Tools. Use 'em all !
Technique isn't enough for ANYONE. Never was. Guys have always relied on effects, special modifications, mic techiques etc to get the most out of a performance.
Arrangers, Sequences, MP3 files ..... they all belong in your tool belt at every gig. There - happy? I said the "G" word ! hee hee ....



[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 08-25-2007).]