Hello everybody,

Wow, we're finally getting some dialog going in the GEM forum....I'm excited!

Okay, let's talk midi editing (or at least what I like to do). For you WK8 owners out there (and WK4, SK880, etc) where are the best sounding instruments, what banks?

Depends...Right? Depends what we are talking about. Piano...probably Piano1 which is in midi bank0 or Generalmusic GMX Bank1 (I'll start calling it bank1 from here on out). Piano2 is a little brighter, that works sometimes, and I also like PianoMk1 found on bank2. Okay, how about bass? For me, FingerdBs2 and 3 found on banks 6 and 7 respectively sound the best. I also use AcoustcBs4 found in bank4 a lot too. Slap and Synth are fine up on bank1. Okay, guitars...The overdrive guitar found in bank1 is okay but doesn't work that well in newer songs (my opinion of course). Yet the LeadDist3 found in bank6 is awesome. I get a midi file with overdrive guitars selected, 8 times out of 10 I will change up to LeadDist3 and get some great results. How about drum kits? DK_Std_1 is okay but DK_Std_1WX and DK_Std_10 sound crisper, snappier, whatever you want to call it yet still gives the same timbre as DK_Std_1. I've been substituting DK_Rock lately with some real interesting results, a different sounding kit but can be a lot of fun with certain songs.

So I think you get my point here. Take a midi file but jazz it up a bit by using the better sounding instruments your keyboard has to offer. I've never really changed the songs that came with the keyboard, the GEM folks definitely did there homework there. But I've got 500+ good midi files from Tune1000 that just use the standard general midi banks. I gotta tell ya, some of these songs are a night and day difference between just leaving them alone and swapping out the general midi registers for different ones that I think sound better.

So when I heard that the latest keyboards play midi files right off the disk, you don't have to load them into RAM, I was excited. What I was hoping for was to select the file, scan down the instruments chosen, change what I want, hit the "Store Procedure" button and off I go. That IS what I do if I load it into RAM. But that doesn't happen if I play it right off the disk. Sure I could change the instruments after the song starts but that can get a bit cumbersome especially if I'm changing a lot of stuff.

Oh well, no biggy, I can live with it, I have so far. For the stuff I use a lot, I use Calkwalk to change the settings then save it to disk...That's probably the better way to go anyway. It would be nice if GEM would release a Genesys instrument definition file for Calkwalk soon (hint). All of this would be a moot point.

mike

So basically, Genesys does not have RAM and because it does not have RAM, actual editing of files is more difficult, in fact, most likely there is no such thing as instant editing?

Is that the point?

Or what I am missing?

Oh no, Genesys has got RAM. I was trying to find the actual spec but couldn't...Maybe one of the other guys knows.

Now I don't know for sure so you'll have to take this with a grain of salt. There's a difference between loading a song then playing it and playing it directly off of disk. When you play a midi directly off of disk, you don't get a chance to change (and make stick) any of the midi events before the song starts. The events I'm talking about would be which instrument to use on which track.

But when you load the song into RAM, then make a register change, then do a 'Store Procedure' (or save), that change superceeds any initial "Patch Change" midi event and doesn't change it unless it receives another Patch Change event somewhere during the course of playing the song. Doesn't change the actual file, just makes the changes in RAM. What I'm not sure of is whether the original instrument choice is found in the sysex file or is it in a header in the midi file or what.(?)

So what I was hoping for was the ability to let my instrument changes superceed any midi event changes before the song starts regardless of whether it was coming from RAM or directly off a disk. I'm not asking it to change notes, effects, timing, lyrics, etc...Just the initial choice of instruments used.

And like I said, it's not that big of a deal. If they can't do it, then they can't do it. I'll get by.

Maybe I'm just asking for too much.

I remember somebody saying that Ketron likes to put their best sounding instruments in bank 1 and 2. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Of course, then you've got the ol' what's sounds good to me might not to you.

mike

but can you load a song into RAM?

You can do all your editing, make the instrument your own. The diffrence is it stays like that, even when you power down, Everything stays. It is a whole new approach to a keyboard. The genesys doesn't have ROM, Those sound installed at the factory, those styles, even those demos, are all in that flash. A sample that you load, actually becomes part of the instrument.

Let me clear this up, the instrument doesn't have volatile battery backed RAM, nor does the instrument have ROM which most manufactures put their sounds and styles. This instrument can completely change from software update to software update. The sounds and styles are not stored permanently on a chip. Every function is stored on the instrument via Flash RAM. In theory all the sounds and styles can be removed and your own personal sounds and styles can be put in there place. The genesys has 8 Megs of Flash free that you can load songs, styles, samples, MP3, etc. In theory, if you want more room for your own stuff, get rid of the things you aren't going to use on the instrument to free up some flash ram.

This is a completely new way of looking at an instrument, and can confuse people that are use too the old battery backed RAM and familiar with having the manufactures sounds and styles permanently embedded on the chip.


[This message has been edited by PaulD (edited 01-30-2003).]

[This message has been edited by PaulD (edited 01-30-2003).]

Good morning,

First off, I want to thank PaulD for all the very helpful input. It's nice to have somebody like that on board. Next, I want to say that I'm no expert, not even close. Just an ol' accordion player that now plays GEM keyboards as a hobby and for relaxation. Most of my quotes come from reading the manual and/or practical experience. And I'm about to quote the manual again....I'M NOT TRYING TO GO AGAINST WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!!!

(In case anybody wants to read the same manual I'm quoting)

http://gem.generalmusic.com/en/products/genesys/genesys.html

Page 2 of the Genesys_Working.pdf:

The Genesys contains an internal re-chargeable battery which is used to retain the contents of its memory while the unit is switched off. If the unit is left switched off for more than about 3 days, the battery will discharge completely and the contents of the memory will be lost.

Page 45:

The SONG PLAYER can play a song in any of these formats from any available device, Floppy Disk, Hard Disk, CD, SCSI device or from the instrument's internal memory, (which is called RAM in the SONG PLAYER and DISK menus).

This is the RAM that I was talking about and so I guess that answers SK880's question...Yes, you can load songs into the keyboard's RAM.

Page 54:

Changing the sound in any track is simple. First, make sure the song is playing and then select SINGLE mode in the PRESET FAMILIES section.

MAKE SURE THE SONG IS PLAYING...That's my whole point. If you are going to play directly from disk, you can't make any edits before the song starts. And the only edit I'd be interested in making before the song starts is the instrument selection. Yet if you load the song into RAM first, then select SINGLE mode and change the instruments, then STORE the procedure, the changes stick when you start the song. And how long does it take to load a song into RAM from a floppy, or hard drive, or CD-ROM?...The same amount of time it takes my WK8 now....A while! So playing directly from floppy didn't turn out to be the revelation I had hoped for. Unless of course, all my midis are redone in Calkwalk selecting the correct instruments to begin with...Then direct play off of floppies would be great. That's a lot of work on my part. I'd better get busy.

And this nit-pickin' on one certain topic doesn't mean I don't like the keyboard. I'd love to have a new Genesys sitting on my keyboard stand right now....I just can't afford it. Definitely looking forward to the compact model.

mike

Thanks. So it does and must have RAM otherwise, it will not be able to run the operating system. Furthermore, the RAM is battery-backed (which is good), for 3 days only (which is not that good). Moreover, you can load songs into RAM (which is excellent).

How much RAM total?

so the Genesys or and it's newer light weight brothers can read from SCSI ? is this still only from a couple of specific odball devices like SCSI zips and Jazz?, not generic large SCSI HD's. I have just spent many nights trying to back up the supplied Hd contents of WK8 se first to Zip then to CDR with computer of course, after a lot of faffing I discovered I had to load all the samples into ram then resave B4 the ZIP would multicopy the HD contents, Still pleased with my WK8's though but ccould be easier with a few tips on what many people must still find over and over with no help

Honestly, I appreciate you calling me on this, as I have never gave it any thought as to why there was a reload after 3-4 days of being unplugged. I always chalked it us to memory corruption as I am on the road with this instrument all the time, and I have one of the first genesys shipped into the country.

As soon as I read your posting, it was eye opening. I quickly did some research and fired off an email to Chris Anthony (one of the members of the team that designed and programmed the genesys). Chris was gracious, he saw that I have become active in the forum, and typed up a response. Here is what he said:

"The memory used in the Genesys is not actually Intel FLASH although this has been much used as an analogy to explain it's advantages to people. The proliferation of "flashable" memory devices means that most people can grasp the benefits of such a system by simply hearing this one word.

All memory in the instrument is technically contigious; that is - there is no division between ROM and RAM and everything from the o.s to the sounds and styles is erasable and updateable. For management purposes, we designated a certain area as "RAM" which simply describes the area of this memory which can be re-written by the user. The remainder of memory is software-locked. This is the section which contains the o.s and the "resources" (sounds, styles, music library etc.). This area can be re-written only by loading new factory-created resources from a CD or other device.

The memory itself, does require battery backup during power-down and this is the whole reason for the existence of standby mode as explained in the manual.

Reagding the loading and editing of midi files, the system offers all the advantages as the SK/WK line (load a song, change all sounds/volumes etc. and then save all your changes by pressing one button), with the added advantage of a direct from disk/cd/hd/scsi player plus a new GM remap feature which instantly selects the best alternatives to the standard GM voices, (including real sounds, fazioli piano etc.) when playing any midifile.

Chris"

I hope this helps in understanding the genesys. I personaly love this instrument, and not because I work for Generalmusic. There is no arranger instrument that has the power of genesys, nor have a very intuitive user interface. Yes, it doesn't look as high tech as the other intruments out there, but what is more important, looking high tech, or being high tech. Yes, the instrument is heavier than most everything out there, but nothing sounds as good (Speaker system, and samples) Nor has as much stuff onboard, I.E. CDRW, Video Outputs, Hard disk recorder, vocal processor, 32 midi channels, etc.

Don't get me started about updates, and upgrades..... How long does it take to update your instrument??? Can you update/change the built it sounds??? What model will be replacing this instrument next year???



[This message has been edited by PaulD (edited 02-01-2003).]