instead of hijacking another thread, which i sort of did,
I decided to start a new one on the subject:

quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
. By playing arrangers, we are intentionally cutting out lots of other persons from working. Why because we want to make more money. Instead of playing in a band with other instrumentalist, we use and arranger that has samples of those instruments, technology that causes those instruments to play by themselves by us pressing a chords (styles)-------------------------------------------
Mo:
We are not cutting out other people from working unless
we are going into a place that has bands and saying: hey
why pay all those guys when I can make the same music
for the price of one. in my experience that is not what is
happening, and if a place hires an omb to replace a band,
that means the band had little impact, because no way
an omb will have the same kind of impact or be as strong
an attraction as a good band would.

It's just that today's economics and musical tastes
increasingly preclude the hiring of bands as a viable
option, so the deejay, the kjay, the omb have filled the
gap. we are able to work as live entertainers because we
are economic for smaller venues and events. what does
amaze me, however, is the number of you that say they work as omb's to 100-250 people. I don't really understand that at all, unless the venue or sponsor finds
the omb, for some reason musically preferable to a band.

But we can hardly blame the practioner of what technology has provided for the fallout that comes from technological advance.
A couple years ago i hired a pianist to work duo with me on a gig..i played sax , sang, and used my kb for vibes etc..solos..
i hit the bossa rhythm bass/drum backing on one tune
and the pianist got up in a huff and said.." i know too many good drummers out of work for me to consent to
play with a machine" I thought he was misguided. Do You?

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Miami Mo




[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 07-06-2007).]

There have been one and two person bands around forever. My organ teacher did a duo with a drummer and I saw many solo organists in the 60's and 70's. And there are always the pianists of any sort. The fact that arranger technology helps OMBs sound like trios and more is simply progression of technology. Even when using SMFs or arrangements, it is my keyboard playing that I focus on. I know that my playing could (should) stand on ots own, so there are no apologies for using arrangers in place of musicians.

All good points but the fact still remains that other than original organ players and piano players, an OMB (especially those who use arrangers) are intentionally, for economic reasons, cutting out other instrumentalist.
Now economics is not the only reason personalities, competency of other musicians, practice times are all other reasons.

But remember when some of you play as an OMB, you are not just using keyboard sounds (piano and organs) bur you are using saxes, trumpets, guitars and bases and drums and other live instruments.
To tie this in with another thread, why do you think the majority of people on this forum have the Tyros 2. Because of the SAV that try to mimic acoustic instruments. And what about the comment the Roland and Ketron have a live sound. So you all are trying to sound like a live band.

Do you think if they were no arrangers there would be no live music?

hey let those sax and trumpet players learn to play arranger keyboard...then maybe they can put some of us out of work..

are you saying that arrangers have replaced live music?
first of all, aren't we are live?. as live as a solo pianist or
organist or guitarist..the solo instrument we happen to
play is an arranger kb that has many sounds/rhythms.

but yes, we do replace, in a way, drummers and bass
players..but the question is whether the kinds of venues
most of us play can afford to pay duos/trios. if they can't,
then the choice is no live music or us..which is better?

those that work almost exclusively with smf's and/or
full arranger backings are really crossing over from live
solo musicians who happen to play arranger kb's...to
nothing more than a more sophisticated form of deejay.

------------------
Miami Mo

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 07-07-2007).]

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 07-07-2007).]

don't get me wrong..I think those that work as above serve as a much more creative alternative to the deejay,
and I would like nothing better than to see the "kjay"
replace the deejay, because , to me, the vaunted
"creativity" attibuted to deejays is almost non-existent.

but, it's still not in the realm of those who use the
arranger kb to amplify an inherent musical skill..e.g,
a pianist who "adds" stuff from arrangements and a
palette of sounds.

------------------
Miami Mo

There are a couple of sax players around the Baltimore area who play arrangers and do a nice job. You can always find a job if you're creative and willing to do whatever it takes. It's not up to us to keep everyone employed.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

right on..that's why i said the pianist who was upset i
turned on the rhythm because drummers were out of work
was misguided. a very Luddite point of view....

------------------
Miami Mo

I just hope when DJs or some other type of music/computer manipulation takes over the arranger like how arrangers have taken over acoustic instrument playing you all will be singing the same tune.

Just like in the thread with sampling, it is only the people who it hurts are the ones complaining.

ttg,
what are we suppose to do? keep our arrangers at home?
maybe it will start to swing in the other direction..
kjays replace deejays..
then skilled soloist w/arranger "extras" replace kjays..
then bands come back...
who can predict what the future holds?
meantime we use things because they are there..
is what we are doing immoral? are we really putting
musicians out of work? and if so, what are we supposed
to do about that?

------------------
Miami Mo

I feel the only musicians I put out of work are the ones who don't show up for rehearsals, the drunks, the egomaniacs, and all the other problem makers/starters, not even mentioning the low talent wannabes.
If there is a talented musician who can and will pull his or her own weight on any instrument that coincides with my repetoir I would welcome them in a fast moment. The more the merrier as far as I am concerned.
To me music is not just about the sound but also the working together of different personalitys and talents.
At the moment it happens to be myself, my fiance (soon to be wife), and all the people who made the styles and sounds which are available to me.
After all, aren't we helping to keep those techies and un-known musicians working also?

Jim

Enjoy your talents and abilities to entertain.


[This message has been edited by OldNewb (edited 07-07-2007).]

In the 70s when the synthesizer first started getting widely used the British Musicians Union tried to introduce a ban on using synths in clubs saying they were putting other musicians out of work by replacing them with synth parts. Obviously this was short sighted and didn't last for very long. There is always a backlash against new technology but there really is no stopping it.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 07-07-2007).]

OTOH, Nigel, there was a ban on Broadway for synths when used as ersatz string sections, etc.. That ban was eventually broken, and now only a handful of shows have any string players, etc..

I think there is a big difference between a small venue, who if faced with the cost of a full band simply could not afford it, and large venues and On-Broadway sized theaters, who always HAVE used real musicians (and been easily able to afford them) until the technology comes along to replace them. Then it's simply a case of corporate greed.

And, as the players of those replacing technologies, we are only a technological step away from having exactly the same thing done to US! Witness how many Broadway (or at least, off-Broadway) musicals use tapes (or rather, computerized playback) instead of any musicians at all!

What we have lost is any sense of collective bargaining power. The move away from unions, and the government and big business sponsored union-busting that has gone on since Reagan and the ATC fiasco has made us all collectively forget about (or ignore) the reasons we needed unions in the first place. They are an awful solution to the problem, but as the early decades of the 20th century showed us, corporations and big business, when NOT balanced by an equally powerful union, will squeeze it's labor force for everything it possibly can.

We are more productive as workers than at any time in our history (the American workforce, that is), but wages have NOT risen in proportion. Executive pay and perks have shot through the roof, though. So SOMEONE is benefiting from the longer hours, less holidays, less benefits and sped-up workflow. But it ain't us....

It is maybe distasteful as 'artists' that we should consider collective bargaining even necessary (isn't the world supposed to recognize our value and pay us accordingly? ), but sooner or later, we are getting squeezed out, just like everyone else. The only thing that keeps us going is that a club owner can't outsource OUR gigs to India or SE Asia, and America hasn't developed a taste for Tex-Mex, Mariachi and Conjunto, yet!

But they HAVE developed a taste for a music (guided by the handful of huge corporations that own ALL the radio stations?) that relies very little on live musicians, and uses tapes and computer playback for most of it's 'sound'.....

Rap and Hiphop and trance and techno....

The squeeze is on.