On all "PRESET" Tyros Styles which include OTS, when selecting OTS buttons (1-4), even though the stored LEFT voice selection is called up, the LEFT part's on/off status is always OFF (left voice part button light goes out, and no left voice is heard).

I can of course manually turn the LEFT part button back on, but if I then select another one of the (1-4) OTS buttons, the LEFT part is automatically turned back OFF again.

Short of re-saving the PRESET style as a new USER style, with the OTS (1-4) Left Part on/off status set to ON, there's no way I'm able to keep the LEFT part voice status turned "on", when switching between OTS 1-4 buttons.

It seems strange to me that Yamaha would go to the trouble of assigning specifically chosen LEFT voice instruments in OTS for all their PRESET styles yet have the LEFT VOICE 'on/off' status stored as OFF when actually selecting the OTS (1-4) preset buttons. btw, I DID remember to make sure the keyboard's 'FREEZE' button was turned off as well.

Ok, what's going on here? Am I missing something? In addition to my Tyros, I kind of remember that my PSR2000 worked this way as well. Curious if PSR3000 owners are experiencing the same thing as well. Is this just a bug or did Yamaha purposefully intend their PRESET style OTS Left Voice settings to work this way? I don't understand the logic of this. Can anyone else here provide an explanation?

Feedback from other Yamaha arranger owners (from: Tyros, PSR3000, PSR2100, to PSR2000) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Scott

Scott. Yes the PSR3000 does just the same and I agree...it's a pain. It would have helped if there was an option to place a tick in the freeze button.

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 01-28-2005).]

Graham. Good to hear that it's not just an anomoly (bug?) with my keyboard (Tyros) alone.

Thankfully, for most of my playing scenerios, I prefer to keep the left voice always set to 'acoustic' piano, and using my workaround method: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/010030.html able to achieve this, but there are OTHER times when I do want to utilize the Preset style's OTS 'left voice' selection as well, and this is not possible with the LEFT voice continually shutting off when merely switching between OTS buttons 1-4. This makes absolutely NO SENSE to me whatsover. Is this a major "OTS Preset Style" design flaw on Yamaha's part?

Scott

Hey Scott,

I posed this question on the Arrangerworkstaion.com site back in October: http://www.arrangerworkstation.com/forum...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

And did not get a satisfactory reply. I'm with you on this one - totally frustrated.

Looks like we have another "fill to self" issue buddy!


Let's start that support writing campaign.

Regards,
Al

Hi Al, the response you got on your ArrangerWorkstation thread posting sounds like the typical line Yamaha gives when presented with any problem: Deny the problem, and then say that Yamaha purposely designed it that way. Funny thing is that they're NEVER able to come up with a legitimate 'playing scenario' where having the left voice OTS selection continually defaulted to OFF makes any sense. I'm really wondering if Yamaha will ever admit to and correct this 'obvious' glitch on Tyros II, because if they haven't caught on since the PSR2000 (first kb with OTS) and the PSR300 (several years later), I kinda of have my doubts. I'm exhausted after finally getting them to fix the 'fill to self' issue, so Al, perhaps you could rally this cause. - Scott

Scott, it doesn't sound like a glitch, but by design..It would seem to me the majority of players would want the one touch setting turned off, alowing your own sound selections rather than the preset ots..It would make more sense to operate this way than having to turn off the OTS all the time...Perhaps if Yamaha allowed for the OTS settings to remain globally[user choice] it would make more sense..
When I tried to use my PSR2100, I rarely wanted to play the OTS, while performing..
BTW, I don't miss the Yammy at all..and not because of the OTS..

.

Fran, are you by any chance on both Roland & Yamaha's payroll?



If one chooses not to utilize Yamaha's Preset OTS voice selections, they would simply not select from the (1-4) OTS (one touch select) buttons, but make their own sound selections manually, and save these to registration for later recall if desired. It makes NO logical sense whatsover why Yamaha would assign a LEFT voice to their Preset Style 'OTS settings', and not have it heard (by default). If Yamaha did this by design, then it's definitely 'ill-designed' in my opinion. - Scott

Scott,
I did notice the same thing on my Tyros and my guess was that Yamaha kept the left hand voice off on purpose, to save polyphony.
This is not a big problem for me, because I don´t like the preset OTSs anyway and I always prefer to program my own registrations, but I understand that it can be a frustrating thing.

Are the preset OTS programmable? Can a user change them? Are they associated with a style?

Just select the freeze button and that left hand voice will remain on during the any OTS changes. You can select any voice, set up the song via a registration, with any left voice, then proceed through the OTS and you'll retain that left voice through the entire song, regardless of variation or OTS. Unfortunately, the freez itself cannot be stored in the 3000s registration, at least not that I'm aware of.

Cheers,

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 01-28-2005).]

Yes, the OTS settings are actually stored with the STYLE itself. They are also programmable, but once you change the settings you have to then save and call the newly created USER style up instead. That defeats the purpose & convenience of using PRESET styles.




True, but how about when it comes time to change the preset style selection when going to the next song? Before you can even select another Style, you have to REMEBER to:

1) Press the FREEZE button again to release the current voice

2) Select another PRESET Style with OTS.

2) Press one of the newly selected style's OTS buttons (1-4).

3) Press the LEFT Part button to turn it "on".

4) Press the Freeze Button yet AGAIN to prevent the Left part from shutting off when merely switching OTS (1-4) selections.

Miss one step and it won't work. It's really absurd to have go thru all these steps (and in that exact order) just to utilize the LEFT hand OTS voice programmed into Preset Styles.

Scott

Why not just set everything up in a registration, style, right voice, right layer, left voice, tempo, variation, synch start, intro, etc.

Now merely select the registration, which has all the information stored within, press Freeze, press any key and begin playing. As the song is ending, press Freeze again and you're ready to select the next registration, MFD, midi file, etc. Not a lot of button pushing, but of course, this would depend on how you set up your registrations.

Gary

Hi Gar ... I of course realize that you could do this, but why have go thru all this rigormarole just to play 'on the fly' from PRESET styles? If Yamaha would have just stored their LEFT voice settings where they SHOULD have be in the FIRST place: with all the 'other' Voices (Main, Layer, Rt1, Rt2, etc) in the OTS memory contents "VOICE" group, like they SHOULD have, this problem could have been totally avoided. Go figure.

Scott

Ironically, this was how it was done with the PSR-5700 and PSR-740. They switched to the current system with the 2000. Sometimes I wonder what the design folks had on their minds when they came up with some of these so called improvements. Just gotta' live with em' till the next one comes out--then it's back to learning another new system.

Cheers,

Gary

Yep, this sounds hauntingly familiar to the suddenly missing "Fill to Self" feature on the Tyros. When I first reported this to Yamaha, rather than acknowledging the problem, they adamently insisted the ommision was a conscious 'design change' decision on their part. It was only after many months of repeated hounding that Yamaha finally acknowledged bug, and included it again on the Tyros via OS update.

I'm now beginning to wonder if the same thing may be going on here with Yamaha's sudden change (starting with the PSR2000) of storing the LEFT voice settings with the' "STYLE" Group rather than "VOICE" Group, as I can think of NO practical benefit (from an arranger keyboard players standpoint) for Yamaha to have intentionally implemented this as a 'design change' improvement.

I would have expected Yamaha should have caught this bug by now, especially after 4 subsequent new model releases since this initially took place on the PSR2000: PSR2100, Tyros, and PSR3000. Perhaps Yamaha just thought we wouldn't notice?!

It's only because I finally discovered (by sheer luck & some ingenuity) a workaround solution for freely selecting preset styles without changing the LEFT voice that this is no longer a 'life & death' issue for me, but Yamaha definitely needs to again, store LEFT VOICE settings with all the other voices (RT1 (Main), RT2 (Layer, and RT3) in the VOICE 'Memory Contents' Group, and hopefully implement this with Tyros II. At this point I guess it's just 'wait and see'.

Scott

Scott. You should have known by now that when Yammy put a good feature on a board....They think...Ha!!! that was a good feature we added on the previous model...let's leave it off the next new model.
They have done this numerous times over their keyboard ranges.

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 01-29-2005).]

On my Tyros, I set the Left voice to Live Strings way back when I got it. For some reason, it always stays on Live Strings no matter what preset style I select. Even if I load a style from disk, the left voice remains Live Strings. And if I have turned the Left voice on, it remains on no matter what style I choose, with or without OTS activated. Isn't this what you want the Tyros to do, Scott? If so, it is possible. I don't remember exactly how I set it up this way. I do always leave the Freeze button on.

Tom G.

Hi Tom, Wow, I think you just helped me discover "why" Yamaha may have chose to store the LEFT VOICE with the STYLE parameters instead of with the other VOICE parameters now. Perhaps there was a Yamaha method to the madness afterall.

Yep, the LEFT VOICE which always plays after the ACMP button is selected, following inital keyboard boot-up is: "Live Strings". Unfortunately, after you select a style and then START up the auto accomp, the LEFT PART selection button light goes out and the LEFT VOICE is no longer heard.

On the other hand, if you now re-activate the LEFT PART selection button light, select a VOICE for the LEFT PART, and then activate the FREEZE button (with Freeze content's: STYLE checkbox marked), you'll then be able to freely select ANY style on the keyboard and switch between registration (1-8) and OTS (1-4) buttons, while retaining the LEFT VOICE selection to the voice initially selected.

Storing the LEFT VOICE selection with the style itself, and not with the other voices (RT1, RT2, Main, Layer) is what provides the ability to freeze 'only the left voice' in this situation. Even so, I personally prefer to setup my default LEFT VOICE selection along with my startup default 'registration file' settings (vocal harmony type, split point, chord recognition type, etc) to be all automatically called up by the press of a SINGLE button right after startup. The initial Registration setup configurqation programing may take little time, but once programmed, you never have to think about it again: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/002610.html

Unfortunately,the above doesn't solve the nagging problem of the OTS preset LEFT VOICE Part selection automatically turning off when selecting an OTS button (1-4). Yes, you can utilize the freeze button to retain the OTS LEFT VOICE selection while that specific Style is selected, but if you select ANOTHER style, you have to: de-select the freeze button, select the new style, press an OTS button (1-4), press the LEFT PART button again, and then activate the freeze button (yet again). I can only hope Yamaha will finally address & correct this in Tyros II.

Tom, thanks again for pointing to the possible explanation why Yamaha chose to store the LEFT VOICE settings with the Style settings.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-30-2005).]

I think this is actually regarded as a 'feature' instead of a 'bug' per se.

Yamaha is in my estimation giving more control to the User when using any given Preset Style.

They're 'all' off so at least it's was done on a consistent basis.

When using the OTS link the Left part Voices are utilized, i.e. a Left part Voice bank is loaded, although it is left in the off position. Simply pressing the Left Part panel button will enable it.

Sometimes the Left Voice may not always be needed when playing a song using a Style. When a person is in any one of the given Variations within the Style, e.g. variation "B" etc. of A thru D, one can then enable the Left voice if he or she chooses by simply pressing the Left Voice panel button.

Granted, if a person changes to a different Variation within a Style the Left part Voice is once again disabled. But simply using the Freeze button as Gary mentioned will keep the Left Voice ON regardless of switching between variations.

This gives the User more control over the Style than for Yamaha to have enabled the Left part Voice(s) of the Preset Styles from the get-go on each and every Style in my opinion. >> You turn it ON when you want to, not the other way around where you turn it off when you don't want to, i.e. reaching up to turn it off when you didn't necessarily want it on in the first place. Doing that repeatedly could lead to aggravation needless to say.

In the case of switching to another Style either during a song or when starting a new song, simply turning off the Freeze function would allow the new Style to load its own new Left part Preset Voice (if any). You could then re-enable the Left part Voice and the Freeze function if you choose, to keep the Left part Voice always ON during the new song, etc. if you want it to be. If you switch between Styles "during" an existing song: then if you had left the Freeze button ON, the Left part Voice before you switched Styles would still be used and, if the Left part Voice panel button was ON on your Tyros at the time, it would still be active when you switched Styles of course.

Of course we all know - those who own a Tyros anyway , is if you set everything up in a Registration beforehand when using a Style for using with a song etc., then all your settings are pre-stored and called up when a person presses any of the 1-8 Registration panel buttons. Thus simplifying things even further. >> Once you get through the actual Registration setting up process that is.

Best regards,
Mike

Guys, its not a "design flaw" and its not a conspiracy. And those of us who take the time to address your questions on the forums, aren't busily trying to figure out ways to cover up for the engineering department. They do make mistakes sometimes, and life goes on. This time it was a design decision. Think about it, can you make a custom style and have the L voice on within a given OTS? Then, so can we with the presets. This is not part of the design of the instrument so much as a design of the content. It's like saying wouldn't this voice be better with a little less vibrato? So the decision was made to leave it always off. Some people prefer it off. What criteria should we use to decide which ones have it on and which off? Let's hear from everyone who uses OTS.

Yamaha loves your feedback. If we give you a response you dont like or disagree with you, it's not because we're covering up, it's because we have a different perspective.

Steve

Steve,

From my experience, always off is just fine most of the time. However, I really liked the way it was set up on some of the earlier keyboards, which had the provision to select the OTS independantly of the left voice. Didn't need to use the Freeze button, just selected the left voice I wished, then could go through the OTS for the right1 and right2 voices without affecting the left. Just made sense. That way, when I wanted that left voice, it was a single button push to turn it on or off, and when I progressed through the variations and OTS, that voice I selected was the one that played. I guess the folks in the engineering and design department figured that linking the left voice with the OTS was a good thing, and that would be true if everyone liked to use the same left voice for every song using that particular style. Unfortunately, this is never the case. Nope, they didn't call me about this one either! That's OK, I can work around it.

Thanks for your help,

Gary

Yeah, what he said.


------------------
The old Newb

Always, always off. Unless it's a manual bass part, and in that case, the arranger is off too.

Steve,

Previously, I primarily utilized custom registrations files, but over the last year (or so), to provide a more spontaneous performance, switched instead, to calling up songs from a customized Music Finder database, playing 'on the fly', while utilizing the OTS (1-4) button presets.

I ALWAYS keep the LEFT voice turned "ON" because I believe playing left hand full chords (including rhythmic comping, fills & arpegios) an IMPORTANT aspect to creating a more impressively live sounding arranger keyboard performance.

For most playing situations, utilizing my Custom Registration workaround setup to freeze the LEFT voice (Acoustic Grand Piano) works fine, but there are often situations which I would have appreciated the ability to call up songs from the Music Finder and have the OTS presets not only automatically load the LEFT voice, but turn it ON as well. Any possibility of at least having this added (perhaps in Tyros II?) as a USER OPTION?

Steve, as long as I'm making requests, I continue to PRESS my request for enhancing the Music Finder feature to bring it too its MAXIMUM POTENTIAL. To start with, I strongly suggest that the song's 'KEY TRANSPOSE' setting be added.

Also, adding the ability for a MFD song record to call up (link to) a Registration Bank file, would provide many other important keyboard settings included in REGISTRATION, but not included in OTS.

In addition, link to styles & registrations located not only in the keyboard's USER area, but in the keyboard's hard drive and/or external storage device as well. If this isn't possible, than INCREASING the Tyros USER area storage capacity from the currently existing 3.3 MB, to 10 MB+, would allow us to utilize FAR MORE custom styles via the Music Finder. Because my keyboard's USER area memory has long ago been filled to capacity (with custom styles), I'm having to continuely delete many good exisiting 'custom styles' just to accomodate room for newer ones.

Thanks for listening.

Scott


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 02-01-2005).]

Steve,

I would like the this option in the Freeze/Registration settings in the Utility section. If I want it to be always on or always off, I think I should have the option to set it in ROM. Call it LEFT HAND LOCK.

As I said, some people prefer it off. Let's hear opinions about whether it should default to on or off and/or what criteria we should use to decide which ones have it on and which off.

I'm not looking for suggested updates or new product designs. I've already passed along these comments and I can't tell you whether or not any of your ideas will be implemented in the next generation. But, if we don't get sufficient feedback on this L voice on/off default in the OTS issue, then it will continue to remain the way it is. That doesn't mean, let Scott ask me about it 20 times. Having 20 people give me their opinions once is much more effective.

Steve

I think the OTS should leave it alone. If I set it on it should stay on, if I set it off it should stay off, independent of the OTS

YamahaUS1. I always use left hand on for all my playing. Usually either Strings.Piano.JazzGuitar. It would be nice if it stayed on once selected independent of OTS.

If I were to get a Yamaha keyboard again, I would want left hand on once I put it on and stays on even when I change styles. It should come off when I take it off. The user should be able to determine whether the default is on or off.