Do you guys use a sequence for this? Or play it live?

I'm trying to play it live but I have trouble with the added 2 beat bars here and there. I'm using a 4/4 style that works very good. How do you guys solve this problem? Do you just ignor the 2 beat bar thing and wait for the 4 beats?

I have more trouble with the simplest tunes.

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 11-09-2002).]

I do it live, and I use a pattern that is made for the Motown style of the 4 Tops hit - "I can't help myself". There is a four beat variation that has the snare on all fours and it works just great.

Here's a tip about playing that song more authentically live, instead of using a canned arrangement. If your kb allows you to assign the auto arranger to the RIGHT hand - do that. Then you can play the correct, signature bass line with the left hand and it will sound like a million bucks. To simplify the line , if you are not bass-savy .... try hitting the FIRST note of the line an octave higher than the second note. The original line is both notes down low, but that may be hard for some to play if you''re not into the manual bass thing.
The octave jump is hardly noticable in the line, and it makes for great hand position during the phrase.

If you don't have a good, solid Motown beat on your kb ........ most any 4 beat rock pattern wil get you by in a pinch. The snare on all fours is kind of specific to the hook of that song.

And don't forget to growwwwwwllllll.

I do it live and have found some beats that "work", but nothing perfect. It's o.k. to use a sequence on such songs that are so easily identified.
DonM

Dave,
I have the same Motown beat on the i30 as the PA80. I corrected my post above. I'm talking about the added 2 beat bar here and there. Like in some Johnny Cash stuff. I never could figure out if these country guys do this on purpose to confuse us jazz guys or do they not know what they are doing. I worked with jazz guys that would take the drummer outside and beat him up if he turned the beat around like that. Ha! Ha!

Hi Boo: Wow! I was really wondering IF and WHEN someone here was ever going to bring this topic up. This is an issue which I've been wanting to discuss here for a LONG time but figured most people wouldn't be interested, I'm GLAD you brought this topic up.

In addition to Roy Orbison's 'Pretty Woman', this isolated 2/4 measure thing is also evident on Johnny Cash's 'Ring of Fire' and Burt Bacharach's 'Anyone Who Had a Heart'. After having played these tunes the 'correct' way as I remembered back when performing with a live band, now with the arranger keyboard, I just gave up and play it 4/4 all the way thru the tune, because if you notice, there are usually 2 separate incidents of 2/4 which occur in a given song section, so because: 2 + 2 = 4 (does it? ), the beat comes out the same 'in the end'. Unfortunately, making this arranger compromise really destroys the 'rhythmic pulse' of the original intention of the song, so sometimes I'll end up playing those 2/4 measures as 4/4. But this isn't the best solution either.

Frankly, for most audiences who don't pay attention to these things anyway, they don't even notice the above changes made to the rhythm, but for musicians & music afficianos (always ONE in every crowd), they'll notice and come up and point this out to you.

The isolated 2/4 measure(s) really sets the song apart giving it its unique flavor. I really admire the outstanding musicianship of guys like Cash & Orbison. Country music is not necessarily as simple & unsophisticated as some people think. Let see them try playing these songs the RIGHT way. Also, the Beatles are also famous for adding isolated 'meter change' in the middle of many of their songs: Strawberry Fields Forever, Get Back, Hey Jude, Good Day Sunshine (just to name a few).

Ok, the ONLY real arranger kb SOLUTION (abeit a lot more work involved) is to create a custom 8 bar style loop which includes the unique isolated 2/4 measure(s).

I encourage everyone here to take the time to listen closely to the original artist version of the songs mentioned here and find where those 2/4 measures are located.

Scott


PS: I remembered on my Roland RA800 arranger, there is a dedicated '1/2 measure' button which can be used to address this specific issue. Anyone here use that feature? How well does it work in a live situation?

Scott, why did you get rid of your G800?

It was RA800 module version of the G800, not the same as having an intergrated KB arranger.

1) Very awkward to access arranger buttons from keyboard controller playing position.
2) No advanced jazz chord recognition
3) Piano sample not the greatest imo

After my experience with the RA800, I'll probably never go the arranger table top module route again.

I had a G800 and that button was very useful.
Unfortunately, it and most of the other buttons were starting to stick and wear out after only a few months. The Joystick spring broke, the registrations wouldn't remember transpose settings, and overall the build quality was very bad. Plus it weighed about a million pounds (more or less).
It did sound good though, and I liked the fact that sequences were automatically GM.
DonM

I do it all in 4. I don't miss the 2/4 bar and neither does anyone else that I play for. There IS a workaround, but you need to be nimble with the start/stop syncro buttons. You set them both to "on" and then each time you hit a key it starts and stops instantly. This is how I do the weird bars that absolutely HAVE to be there, like in Gino Vanelli's "I just wanna stop"
The weird bar in Pretty Woman is no where near as important as the signature bass line, so I organize the priorities from greatest to least, and the 2/4 doesn't make the cut.
For the most part - if something has a real specific beat that is important to the flavor of the song, then I'd rather have a sequence. If it's juts dance tunes - it makes NO difference, and in most cases - it's BETTER to play it in even time.

For example - I play NYNY in steady time all the way through if there are line dancers. The retard at the end just screws them all up. I only do the original ending if I want it to be a "show stopper". If it's a dance tune - the show is on the dance floor.

Scott- Playing jazz standards as I do, and trying to imitate Coltrane, Getz, Rollins, Dexter Gordon and even David Sanborn all in the same tune(Ha! Ha!), is difficult enough for any musician with a Cajun brain like me. If you don't believe me, ask Don about the Cajun brain. Our brains are more conducive to the eating of Shrimp, Crabs and crawfish.

2/4 isolated measures to me just breaks the swinging grove that drives jazz. I liked Dionne Warkick and some of the isolated 2/4 bars were OK but, most of this 2/4 bar trick or mistake stuff annoys me. Really in most cases with very few exceptions in my opinion It destroys the grove.

Dave I get all nestled in a grove singing NY NY and most times pass up the ritard at the ending and that ruins the whole grove just like the 2/4 bar stuff does to me.

I'm going to try to ignor the ritard at the ending and see what my wife thinks and save myself a lot of stress. Life is too short.

I want to take a minute to thank (not necessarily in this order), Don, Dave, Fran, Scott, Donny and others for all of their support in helping an old ex-saxman, bricklayer with his efforts to get back into the music scene again. "Still Crazy After All These Years."

I have to remember to try and do this tune. Any midi files of this tune will be appreciated guys.
thanks again,
Boo

I am not sure if someone mentioned the following above (I don't have time to read it all right now), but on my X1 (with the Oriental OS installed) my MANUAL BASS button becomes a conversion button for a FILL to become 2/4 rather than 4/4. In others words if I push MANUAL BASS, then push FILL, it will only play 2 of the 4 beats then go back to the first beat of the STYLE. I use that nicely when ever there are those 2 beat in 4/4 songs, and it works nicely.

Hi Boo
I too have it sequenced.
Basically used 2:4 time throughout, built the percussion from scratch for every bar.
Wanna try something interesting, try Sting's "I Hung My Head." 5:4 time. Now there's a challenge.

Leon,

All the sax players around New Orleans had to learn Take 5 in the 60's. I think that is the first 5/4 tune ever accepted commercially and play on radios all over the country.

People just don't appreciate that stuff today. Real Jazz is dead.
Boo

boo ..... I use it sequenced .... my left hand is nowhere near UD's and others ... the 2/4 bar shows up in a lot of tunes.... Kenny Roger's Lady, Eagles' Desperado, just 2 that come to mind real quick ... it's a pain and most times I ignore it, (so does the audience)... but as someone said, it usually appears an even number of times, so it works out in the end ...
t.

Both "Lady" and "Desperado" sound just fine played on straight piano with strings in the background. I try to do at least one number each set with NO rhythm at all, and these are two great examples of songs that work in that style.(or LACK thereof !)

The 2 beat measure was never a problem with some of my older keyboards (like the PSR 5700) which had a "Restart Button". The instant you hit it, it went to the down beat. It was far prefferable to turning the bass line upside down...especially in well known country tunes.

Eddie

Hi Mosiqaar,
You know what?
You inadvertently solved the mistery which had me puzzled since I got my X1.
For some reason, most of my fill-ins ran 2/4 and then back to first measure.
I thought it was part of the style but it was inconsistent and it irritated me because it threw me off, especially at the beginning.

Now, thanks to you, I know why.
I generally setup with the "Manual Bass" and "To Root" on because I sometimes like to walk the bass with the left hand.

After reading your comment, I tried turning off the "Manual Bass" and magic, the fill in is now the normal 4/4 and I know that if I really want that 2/4 frill I can get it.

Thank you

The Pa80s TapTempo is also a Reset (restart) button when the style is playing.