Hi Scott
You may be correct about the USA, but I can assure you that here in the UK it is exactly the opposite, most hobbyists learn proper chords from the offset, and enjoy delving in to there instruments to find what is in there, they also absorb all the info on the various forums and magazines about how to get the best from their instruments, this is particularly noticeable at festivals where the in depth use of the instruments from the various manufactures are the best attended. (Playing techniques also come high on the agenda)
Regarding changing manufactures, if they find an instrument that sounds better or gives them more of what they want, then they will soon change and learn the new OS system. (In fact the only reason people sometimes don’t change is mainly down to cost, although at some later stage they will always find ways to get what they want)
Perhaps the above is why manufactures concentrate more on the UK and Europe market, then they do on the USA market.

Bill

Scott I have to disagree. I would never attempt to show any "bias" towards a particular make when selling someone a keyboard--even a first keyboard.

The Casio OS is similiar in almost all of their line up. One can move from one Casio to the next, and not be overcome by an entirely new set up. That's just locking someone to "one" brand for life.

All the companies make good keyboards, and as children and adults progress the odds of them switching brands is very likely.

We can't just assume that someone isn't going to use the drawbars, sequencing, ect. How are we to know where their interests will be 6 months or a year down the road?

I would never assume someone wouldn't use the drawbars. Especially an adult. Many adults were playing the organ and piano before keyboards/synths.

I just think it's a very closed minded position to take.

Squeak

Scott,
I disagree too. Do you think 76 & 88 key keyboards, especially those with weighted keys, were designed for people who play with one finger in each hand?

I think these keyboards were designed to meet the needs of people like me - composers, and piano players - people with musical background or serious hobbyists.

This is my main concern. There is no keyboard on the market that meets my needs. I need an 88 weighted keys arranger with quality of sounds similar to PSR-2000 or 2100. You might suggest I need to look for a synth but they are too sophisticated. Maybe the Mo8 is my keyboard? Too expensive probably...

Buy an 88-note controller, a PSR 2100 and a midi cable. Or a pro-level digital piano and the Ketron Midjay.

I had the same thought, that nothing existed that would fit my needs, but it wasn't true and I now have two stage rigs:

Rig #1: Yamaha 9000 Pro (with PLG150-PF for piano w/64-note polyphony) with a Radio Shack Piano as a controller. Works great and sounds excellent. I thought it would be inconvenient to go back to a dual keyboard rig but it isn't... the Radio Shack piano (rebranded Casio CDP-100) is superlight to carry and the action is terrific.

Rig #2: Kawai ES4 w/Music Pad Pro v4. The ES4 piano has 96-note polyphony and is a great instrument with no shortcomings. The Music Pad Pro can play back MP3 files for accompaniment and I use it with acoustic pianos as well. I considered the Ketron MidJay as an arranger and MP3 player to go with my piano but I use backing tracks more than arranger functions live and I needed a convenient way to display my music anyway so the Music Pad Pro was the way to go.

I tried everything in the under-$1000 digital piano market and found that it was all useless for me - 32-note polyphony would never cut it - but for less than twice the price of a $700 Casio or Yamaha I could have three times the polyphony with a Kawai ES4 and own a piano that would be great to play for many years to come no matter what technology comes along. The arranger part is secondary and there's many ways to address it if you really need it.

Hi George
There is a Piano made with an 88 note hammer action keyboard that has full arranger functions, unfortunately they have not yet released a portable version, and it is also quite expensive.
The instrument is the Wersi Giga Piano; (And it has all the arranger functions of their OAS keyboards) it also has advantages over the other Wersi OAS instruments, in that the piano samples are taken directly from The Grand VST by Steinberg. (Other OAS uses have to purchase The Grand VST separately)
Just thought I would bring it to your attention.

Bill

The least expensive all in one 88 key model on the market at the moment (with a stable OS) is the MO8. It's not an arranger though.

There's the Fusion 8HD (that sells for less), but if you buy this model you better get yourself a can of "Raid"--your music will be crawling with "OS bugs".

Squeak

Why is there a pre-occupation with all-in-one keyboards/arrangers? One size doesn't fit all, which is why mega instruments cost so much: because they sell to so few. The more feature-laden the keyboard, the more that can go wrong and the more work it takes to debug it. Customer spend thousands just to wind up being a beta-tester. I've lost a lot of faith in MI companies over the years - these days I need an instrument I can rely on when I pay for it, not years down the road.

Esh,
It's because of the set up. The all in one unit.., is more appealing to the market. The choice is one unit, or multiple pieces of gear to accomlish the same thing. We want our value meal supersized, but our gear downsized for all different reasons.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-19-2006).]

Haha. Well, I suspected that my post might bring a lot of response, especially since a lot can be lost in the printed word over being able to discuss and explain different aspects of this concept, so I knew a lot would be assumed and possibly stir strong feelings in one direction or the other.

Everyone that responded to my post has valid points. I know what the ideal learning/teaching situation would be, but I can tell you that having been out in the trenches in the home organ field for many years, which is essentially an arranger keyboard in a wooden cabinet, that what would be an ideal way to learn, what is easy for you and me, and what really takes place with students is 2 different things.

Now, most of what I said is referring to senior hobbyists, with a lot of that which can be carried over to younger people. Each person is different in ability, natural talent, time spent practicing ect.

The best way to learn, IMHO, as I see it from many years of being exposed to this is to get a person started with one finger in either hand, just like is taught in a typical beginner piano lesson. If all other elements go rather well, such as being able to play both hands together in something close to being in correct time with the rhythm and they have the interest , then an attempt should be considered to switch to fingered chords playing all chords in the most recommended F -F position. This is where all chords are played in inversions where each chord is played as closely to the other chords without jumping around. This will allow those students to be able to play without looking at their left hand which will mean fewer mistakes and much more rapid progress.

Once a student learns and masters this approach, if the desire is there then more advanced left hand activities could be approached. These people would be rare, unless they are staring out as a younger person, especially a young child.

I am all for most of the ideas expressed so far, but again, I can see what takes place in most situations.

The pointer system is both a blessing and a curse. In one sense people learn how to play all chords by pointing to the note that is the name of the chord, playing the other notes of the chord and jumping all over the place locking their fingers in that one position. So, in one sense, it's good and instant. In the other sense, almost invariably those people will always, and I mean always have to look at their left hands when moving from one chord to another and will lose their place in the music and this is where the mistakes come. I'm sure there are some people that have gotten this down to a science, but I have observed this problem for over 30 years.

A lot of this has to do with a students desire of where they want to get with their playing. And remember what I am talking about here is learning to play organ/arranger keyboard, not piano. I also teach chord piano. On piano this makes sense because the student will sound good almost right away, but with a lot less to consider such as playing in perfect time with the rhythm section.

So, this approach is designed to allow those that can't or don't want to switch to fingered chords to be able to play and not quit in frustration, and yet allows those with the interest, desire and aptitude to continue on through other various ways of playing left hand in logical steps.

I hope this clears up any questions about this. I am all for all of the possibilities being explored, but there is a definite need to start so that all players will continue and not just the ones that can master fingered chords.

Best
Scott




[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 07-19-2006).]

Dear friends,
Thanks for your suggestions. The Mo8 sounds incredibly and Esh is right that I can access all yamaha styles by using Jos Maas' One man band. Such sophisticated keyboard could keep me interested forever - or until I get to the point where 64 poly is insufficient

OK. I'll try not to be too choosy.

For the momenth I think I'd better stick to my present keyboard.

Best regards,
George.