When I used to use a drum machine I could simply press button 1 for pattern A and button 2 for B, and maybe #3 for a fill, etc. Why don't arrangers have loop sequencers so we can play/record/set a chord/drum arrangement that repeats so we could use two hands for soloing or something else? Cakewalk has a loop feature, but I don't know if I could choose verse, chorus, bridge, etc. on the fly. Even Band-in-a-Box doesn't permit you to choose sections live. Does anything work that way?

------------------
Cass Pawlowski - Motown
PSR2000, SC88, Cakewalk

cassp,
This has been a complaint of mine for a long time with most arrangers.... The majority do not allow loop recording within the 16 track sequencer. They do however allow it when you're recording styles, but that too is quite limited. The style recorders work well for drum tracks, but when you're recording bass lines, and other tracks you have to stay within a specific key sig.... I don't see why Yamaha cannot add loop recording to the sequencers... (actually I don't think it's possible on the disk based recording models), but with their newer line up like the PSR-2000 this feature should be on there... If I remember correctly Yamaha even left out loop recording on the 16 track sequencer on the 9000 Pro, and set it up the same way to loop and overdub under style recording..

Squeak

Only Technics has this...it's called Composer (unless I'm understanding you incorrectly).

Yes cassp, on the PSR 2000 it is called a Multi-Pad. There are 4 Multi-Pad buttons on the PSR 2000. You can use one or all four at a time. It even has the ability to use more than one voice within "each" of the Multi-Pads, eg., start with a Piano voice then it can switch to a Guitar voice all in real time looping. And all of the Multi-Pad voices can be "recorded" along with a Style file, with the Main, Layer, and Left voices in the PSR 2000's 16 track Sequencer. You can do a Quick record, recording all tracks specified at once in real time, or you can do a Multi- recording that allows you to record one or more tracks (up to 16 tracks) giving you more control over the recording arrangement and the composition of it.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: Roland's new VR-760 Keyboard also has multi-effect voice looping in real time but you can use up to "16"! voices at once. But the VR-760 is NOT an Arranger Keyboard even though it does have an Accompaniment feature it is limited in its complexity and usefulness for us Arranger Keyboardists, ie., "No Style Acommpaniment" it just has basic Rhythm accompaniment. But if you want a great Keyboard that is not an Arranger that can do all that your asking, ie., "Looping Sounds In Real Time" and more, the VR-760 would be a great choice in my opinion. Btw, I have been thinking more and more lately about getting a Non Arranger Keyboard to supplement my Arranger keyboard. In my Band I don't use the Arranger features of my PSR 2000 any way. And those sounds on the VR-760 just blew me away. It even has 9 adjustable physical Drawbar sliders right on the front left panel of the Keyboard. Some of Roland's Keyboards have taken a back seat to what other Manufacturers are offering (sound wise) but not the VR-760 imo. It is one Awesome, albeit non-arranger, Keyboard.

Best regards,
Mike

Roland G1000 uses "Chord Sequencer" to do this..

You shouldn't have to use the multi-pads for this though.. The basic sequencer itself should allow you to set a loop point, and the number of measures to be looped... It would be nice if arrangers had sequencers like those of a synth....

Squeak

1) Mike, I have been reading about the VR-760 for a couple months now and had a chance to play one this past Saturday. I agree, WOW! This is the first Roland board in a long time that has the elements most non-arranger keyboardists are looking for. The drawbars were great, the pianos were typical killer Roland and the synth section was just amazing. I'm working on a scheme to get one soon - probably gotta sell my Kurz Mark 5 to do so.

2)Squeak, I agree that using the multi-pads was not what I had in mind. How many times have you played a three-chord song and wanted to just loop those chords so you could wail on a piano or organ solo? That's what I mean! I'd be happy if the loop was only 4-8 measures, as long as it was simple to do - LIVE. The VR-760 may be my answer, esp. if I can slave the clock to/from the 2k. Back to the net for more research. Hope some Roland, Korg or Yamaha R&D people see this thread, 'cuz I really think more arranger players would LOVE a simple to use, down and dirty LOOP SEQUENCER. Play & record it LIVE and let it LOOP until you shut it off.

3) Fran & KN, Please explain how the Roland and Technics loop recorders works.



[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 05-27-2003).]

Cassp,
That's why I miss my synths.. I was always making 4-8 bar looped riffs and would jam my butt off to them. Plus my synths had pattern chaining (something that any arranger would benefit from)... By the way those down and dirty loop sequencers are out there and have been for some time. Here's a few

Roland XP 60/80-- Offered non-stop loop recording, meaning you could record one track and without having to press the stop button move to the next track and start recording all in real time. It was a really cool feature and really limited any gaps in teh creative flow.

Yamaha EX-5/7-- Both awsome synths.. The EX-5 still has some of the best voice editing out there. Plus both models allowed independent track loop recording.. Say you had a pattern that conisted of 4 parts.. You could record a 4 bar drum part set that to loop, a 2 bar bass line and set that to loop and so on.. All the tracks could have their own loop settings.

Korg Triton (Classic and Studio)-- Great loop recording on these units too. Plus they too offer the independent track loop recording.

There are several other models too... If you really want to get down into recording great sounding loops with ease a synth is really the way to go. Granted I do love the arrangers, but when it comes down to raw internal sequencing power I have to go with the synths on this one..

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-27-2003).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-27-2003).]

Squeak, agreed. I never thought I'd miss my XP50 when I sold it a few months ago because I wasn't using it on the job anymore, but now I remember that RPS thing it had, and it was a loop sequencer and it did work well. Because the band isn't playing much right now it's hard to justify buying something new, but I definitely do need a synth. The 2k has some great sounds and features, but it isn't a dedicated synth. Lately, I've really tried to buy equipment for my needs, not my wants or even the latest board on the market. But now I'm really looking seriously at the VR-760. I've had a few Rolands and I guess I still like them (except the Phantoms - YUK!). The 2k is a refreshing change from my previous aranger, a Korg iX300. My band plays a lot of MIDI stuff, but the arranger gives me that LIVE option whenever I want to do something different. I use my SC88 for the midi files and now use the arranger as my sole stage keyboard - K.I.S.S. - but maybe I need to bring back a second keyboard (synth). I've rambled too long OT. See ya.

cass

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 05-27-2003).]

Cassp,
I myself am still ticked that I got rid of a few synths.. I used to own both Roland XP-60 and the Yamaha EX-7.. Both of those units had awsome sequencers. I liked the Yamaha's better though. Have you looked at the Korg Triton Le? That's a decent synth with good voice editing, and a great sequencer... I think it runs $100 more than the PSR-2000, and the Le uses smart media cards now...

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-28-2003).]

Squeak,
No I haven't really looked into the Triton very much. I used my brother-in-law's for an organ part on a demo, but other than that haven't really checked it out. Maybe it's because I had a Korg iX300 and wasn't impressed with most of the sounds. I know the Triton sound engine is completely different, but I still haven't been interested (although my idol, Felix Cavileiri of the Rascals usues one) - I was looking to replace the iX with something else, which ended up being a 2k. I've tried a few arranger modules, but couldn't quite get accustomed to sharing the keyboard with the mod. I love the 2k, but don't use it as an arranger on the job as much as I thought I would, so that's why I long for a synth again, but I'd have to keep the 2k or something like it. I find that most arrangers are really made more for the European market than the US. They seem to use them more effeciently there and still play a lot more traditional dance styles. To use this in a classic rock/oldies venue, as I do, isn't really what they were designed for. Actually, I half-thinking of looking for a new band with a real drummer and bass player, but probably won't.
Cass

I think you might like the Triton LE. The sounds are based on the original Triton.. Go to a few websites and look for some demos. That older model Korg you had will not sound as good as the LE model. The 2k is a great keybaord. It's a shame the US market for arrangers isn't as popular as it is over seas.

Squeak

Hi Cassp,

regarding the Technics- It has 4 user memory banks (A,B,C,D) with 4 variations each plus user customized intro/2 fills/endings. You get to create your own "loop" or "pattern" up to 12 measures each.

What I used to do was something like this: Mem Bank A var 1: Intro
Mem Bank A var 2: Verse
Mem Bank A var 3: Verse2
Mem Bank A var 4: chorus
and so on....you get the idea. You basically can play all this live (use the split mode, set it so that you'll have the whole keyboard except for the far left "c1" for the accompaniment to keep playing).

Yamaha has something similar- but not that many onboard accessible memory (Scott Yee and I had loooong discussion on this, he'll be able to fill you in on this issue I think).

Korg- I do also own the Triton Studio, which has the "PlyLoop" function, separately for each track. If you've never used Technics before, this may be somewhat acceptable, I was a Technics user for 15 years, so it took little bit of time to get used to a different way to do things. You can also do "short songs" (song001,song002,etc) treat them as part of your actual songs, and tie them all up in the end. The difference is, that with the triton you have to program this in advance (not live).

I've heard Korg PA80 may have similar feature like Technics..but you may want to wait for PA-X to come in. I only played the PA80 for about an hour at the store (probably not enough time or manual was not clear- I couldn't work it the way I wanted it to be)...but who knows you'll probably have a different experience.

That's about it for now- sorry for long response.
KN_Fan

Sorry my dear Kn-fan.U have been playing Technics boards for last 15 years and u have
a little knowlege about the sequencer.I am
sorry i dont know what models have been with u.

I have kn6500 and it has the best sequencer i have ever had.Regarading the loop
wihch,i think is the most imprtant function
is available in 6500 in all the sections
for example in easy rec mode,in multi and
ofcourse in making your own patterns.

KN6500 is realy made for pro song maker
it gives me a lot of pleasure when i compose
my song and the best editing functions.
Ofcourse the Kn7000 also has the same os.

Do not waste your time go for Technics.
and it will become your better-half,I hope.

That's cool that the technics allows you to loop in all areas (even the song sequencer).. I didn't know you could do this on those models. Yamaha should take note of this and start putting better sequencers in their arrangers. However, again Yammie wants to keep that fine line between arrangers and synths, and probably will always fall short on some things intentionally. If something like the Tyros was in the price range of say a Yamaha Motif6, then I think you'd see more synth users coming over to play.. Most people I talk to actually like arrangers, but don't want to pay three grand for a Tyros or a 9000 Pro, when they can get a Yamaha Motif for less.

Squeak