Say there is a song you really like but you can't find a style that fits it well enough and can't find a midi. How, exactly, would you go about creating backing tracks for this? Assume you want it to sound as much like the original as possible. I mean, what kind of hardware or software would be required?

I know a guy who does this from scratch but I don't know exactly how he does it. I think he told me one time he has some kind of sequencer. Like me, he plays guitar and keys. He does a good job.

Obviously, you have to lay down tracks for drums and bass, and maybe even play the bass lines note by note. Then, whatever else the song requires. With the appriate rhythms and patterns for the particular song.

This isn't something pressing, just curious how this is done. I'd like to look into it. You could tackle one song a week and in a year, you'd have 50.

This isn't a problem for ballads. There are plenty of styles that you can make work. But there are some up-tempo songs I really like a lot and it would be nice to have them sound close to the original.

Then again, maybe it's not worth it.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

http://www.americandad.com/Default.aspx?tabid=296
http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Soundware-Guid...000000000881786
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov03/articles/backingtracks.htm

Bill,

You can do the entire job on your keyboard, and it's really easy. Just press and hold down the record button, then select the midi channel you wish to record. Then select the specific instrument or drum set you wish to use. There's really not much to it at all, but if you need detailed instructions you'll find them at www.psrtutorial.com then click on the Lessons tab.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

I do it from scratch to make extra cash

I use cakewalk Sonar and my T2 for the midi samples.

please let me know if you have any questions.
happy to help

Nick

Bill there are a couple ways to tackle this..
Producing a great SMF is an art that very few can do..

It takes a good ear and very good keyboard chops to pull it off.

Most people I know can not do it , to the extent of the top guys that produce commercial files..

Personally I know of three people that are good at this..and I know hundreds that try..

Bill, the easiest way is to find a style close to what you need..Listen primarily to the bass and drums, these are the heart to a sequence..If you have the capabilities to combine other parts of one style to another..this can save you much time..
I am not sure you can do this with a PSR2000, maybe someone can confirm.

I also recall the sequencer on the PSR2100 was not up to parr for this job..

Look into PG Music's Powertracks[under $50].

When you get the basic bass and drums, you can try and add the signature parts to a tune...intro, turnaround etc...Be sparse with the notes you add..remember they all use polyphony, and you only have 64...

Good luck, if I can help you farther , email me..

Fran,

Yes, this can be done on the 2000 and 2100, it's very easy to do, and even a dummy like me can do it with ease! The instructions in the user manual, however, are very poorly written, therefore, that's the reason I suggested that Bill go to the PSR Tutorial where well written instructions reside. None of this stuff is neurosurgery, but it does take some time and there is a learning curve. That's why I switched from Kickapoo Joy Juice to Margarettas!

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Gary I am switching from Strawberry Icecream sodas to Black and White milkshakes...

If I have to create a file from scratch I do it this like this....

1. Get Audio file, load into Cakewalk.

2. Listen to file. Attempt mentally to isolate the drums, bass, vocal, strings, brass, etc etc tracks as separate entities and sing/hum along to each distinct part. I am lucky here; I have always been able to play by ear; what has improved as a result of formal musical training has been by ability to quickly recognise the "jazzier" chord structures.

3. Create basic drum track and use to create a tempo map by hand. I have never found the automatic tempo map creation option in Cackewalk to be any use.

3. Having created tempo map, get drum track spot on.

4. Add in Bass, Vocals, Strings, Piano, Brass, Guitar, etc etc tracks

If the guitar work is very strummed, I tend to copy a strummed passage from another style / midi file and adjust. As a keyboard player I am not good at "Live" strum guitar tracks, they always sound like "This is a keyboard player trying to sound like a guitar"....

After this, refine until satisfied.

Sometimes I find I have to stop trying to be "note perfect" and instead go for "feel perfect", in other word I know the notes may not be totally correct but the overall mood created by the file is accurate.

Say that I could buy a backing track for a song. I guess they sell those for popular songs, don't they? I know they do for gospel songs because my neighbor does that. I guess it's similar to karaoke tracks. Do they sell backing tracks to popular songs on the radio, minus the main vocal? If you're trying to sound like the original, that IS the original. I wonder why not do that? I guess you'd become a karaoke guy without karaoke.

Point being, I don't know, maybe it's not so cool to sound EXACTLY like the original?

I create my own midi files by recording them on the psr2000. I do this a lot. And then I play guitar and sing over the top of that. But some killer songs that I love, I just cannot create what I want with the styles I have.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Do you find that what you create often sounds very much like the original?

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Bill why not just find a good midi file. I have maybe 20 or 30 real good midi files I use for Rocking Robin, Ray Charles Georgia, etc. They are almost excatly like the record.

Uh, I said in the first sentence there is no midi for the hypothetical song. (There aren't midis for some songs I'd like to play. Contemporary hit songs.)

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

The easiest way by far, is to start with PG Music's Band-In-A-Box. You can literally create a song in minutes... selecting from 100s of styles. You may then want to refine the song in their PowerTracks sequencer, altho, BIAB may be all you need. Great program - cheap, easy, and good support.
http://www.pgmusic.com/

Glenn

Hi Bill
Here's one I baked earlier!
Have fun with your own efforts.
here

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Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

Good points Bill!

To sidetrack a little, the reason I use midi files (in the keys / drums / vocals duo of which I am half) is that the public - especially the younger public - is expecting us to produce a noise which is a reasonable representation of the original. We started using sequences over 18 years back (we were a trio then) after being involved in a disastrous audition; we were the only totally live act (everyone else had tapes) and were completely and obviously outclassed. An Ensoniq ESQ1 was purchased to provide limited sequence capability, and to beef up the sound.

More recently (say 15 years back) it became obvious that when working with DJ's we were finding that even though we were doing pretty good versions of modern stuff, the younger end of the audience just would not dance when we were on. At this point I got an Ensoniq SD1 (with floppy disc!) to allow much greater flexibility and opportunity to use more sequences (the ESQ1 was memory limited).

And a few years after that I did a couple of years mid-week as a solo act (to help out a hotel who'd been let down). I got a PSR630 for that job and thus got into Midi files.

And now I'm a PSR3000 owner!

These days, even though as two middle aged gentlemen mostly singing songs originally sung by younger acts (with (a) more members and (b) girls) we find that we can shift any age group, because whilst the files are "our version" (and more especially "our key") they still are close enough to the originals that they are INSTANTLY recognisable; this greatly reduces the "I don't know this song I'll sit down" tendency.

To anwser the original question, am I try to get an exact representation?

Sort of.

I try to exactly reproduce drums and bass as these hold the song together. I like to get string and brass pretty close as well. Piano I get exact if slow and melodic and somewhere near for rapid rhythmic stuff; ditto guitar.

When transcribing a song I try to isolate the elements that make the song different and get those precisely right; so I look for the hits, fills and riffs, especially those that are not being played behing vocals. I concentrate less on the finer details of the track behind lead vocals because the audience is listening to the vocals and not the backing at that point.

The mix of the track is also biased to leave space for me to play some keys and esepcially the drummer to play lots of drums; these stops our "version" turning into glorified karaoke.

I find that the more uptempo a track, the more fine detail you can leave out because in a live situation no one can hear it anyway. These are the "go for the right feel" situations.

I would say that you have captured EXACTLY the art of "our version".
What the general public listen for are the bits which they recognise, even without knowing the technicalities.
Overall, I would say that your synopsis is perfect.
Well Done!
cheers
Eddie


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Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info



[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 08-18-2006).]

MacAllcock, how long would you estimate it requires for you to do a song?

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJmXzNgi1Qc

This video might help you with the process.

How long does it take to do this....

Thats the hardest question of all.

Sometimes, if I know a tune really well, I can get to the "usable" stage in under 3 hours, but this would tend to be with ballads where the various elements are easy to isolate.

In reality I don't really count the time because I know if I did the answer would be longer than I'd like it to be. I suppose the average is about 10 hours, but in real time it's probably onger because I get frustrated and do something else, or worst case get frustrated and start from scratch again!

I admire the people who do this professionally, they must work their socks off!

I suppose the "that's good enough" point is reached by the law of diminishing returns, once I've decided that the version created does sufficient justice to the original.

Also, the nice thing about midi files is that you can always go back. At times my partner in the band has got so frustrated with the time I'm taking on "fine tuning" that we have "gone live" with a version that I personally am not happy with, just to see how well it works. And usually, I must admit, they go fine. But if the version sounds dodgy, at least there's another voice suggesting improvements and the next time is usually better.

Ultimately we are back to that old favourite, personal opinion!

Semi,the most important thing that you are going to get out of this exercise is bigger ears because you're gonna be running your playback device into the ground!

Another way to figure out backing tracks is to isolate each track of similar styles in the mixer section of your keyboard and listen to it at least 10x.This will further give you an appreciation for how seemingly simple music can be sometimes when,in reality,it isn't.

[This message has been edited by casiobot (edited 08-19-2006).]

the pros usualy start with a drum track.
I usualy (turn on the metronome), record a track with chords maybe melody that the whole song will rely on, then add drums, bass etc..., than erase this first track that you created.
It really takes a long time to actualy be good at this, and you gotta think ahead when you're recording. All this can be done with just a keyboard that has a sequencer in it. it takes lots of practice and stuff

check this forum: http://board.midibuddy.net/

Is there software that can isolate the various instrument parts from a CD, say with maybe a very good equalizer? I know there is software that will create a midi file from a CD, but most folks say it doesn't work well.
Starkeeper