Looks like Keyfax is shipping the first of the new Yamaha PLG150-AP acoustic piano card to preorders, which I decided to be one of. Mmmm... anticipation! I'll get to try it with the 9000 Pro and compare it to the old piano card, the PLG150-PF in a few days. Looking forward to a different set of new sounds to play with on my keyboard. Of course I'll throw a couple of comparison mp3's on my website for sport.

Just listened to the demos....very cool. I wish I could afford it for my CS6x! I wonder how it compares to Rolands piano?

Carrie

Dunno, but the "piano shootout" page is still up that has several different piano emulations, including the Roland G1000, in a side-by-side comparison here:
http://www.svpworld.com/tyrospiano.htm

Once I get my PLG150-AP I'll add it to this shootout for comparison. It would be nice if someone with access to a Roland Fantom would participate in the shootout also.

Pro,

Just curious; do you know if there is a return policy for the board if you are not satisfied?

Thanks
Ed

No, actually I don't know what Keyfax's return policy is. I always figured I could sell the AP board or the PF board it could replace on eBay easily if I chose to. Actually I have all of the other boards except the PC (percussion) and the VH (harmonizer) boards anyway so if I didn't like the AP I had planned on just adding to my collection. I think I'm going to like it a lot though - the demos are impressive and I rely almost completely on having an expressive piano sound for my gigs.

Just got a UPS notice that it'll be here tomorrow (Friday, 4/5).

Ok, I've spent about an hour and a half with the PLG150-AP installed in my 9000 Pro and have been comparing it to a 9000 Pro with the older PLG150-PF installed and a Motif ES 8.

First - well I'm not as blown away with the sound as I expected; there are some flaws with the sample transitions in the critical lower midrange that are very disappointing.

Let me start by saying that the AP has a good piano sound; better than the Motif ES famed triple strike "Full Grand" by far (which I always disliked) and better than the 9000 Pro's "Live!Grand" by far, and even better than the PLG150-PF's pianos but not by as much of a margin as the first two instruments I mentioned. The immediate thing I noticed was the high end notes sound extremely realistic with all the overtones I often miss with other piano emulations. It really sounds like an expensive grand piano when you tickle those high notes. The lower midrange sounds a little dull to me, but so do many real grand pianos... I adjusted the velocity curve to "Soft1" and that brought out a little more tone. With the velocity curve on "Normal" you practically have to beat the keyboard to death to get any brightness at all... unless of course you select some of the brighter presets that seem better suited to rock. And the bass piano tones are great with lot of resonance. It's the midrange tones just below middle C where most chording occurs that I dislike, and there is an obvious sample change from G# to A below middle C that outright sucks. From that G# down to D# the samples suffer from sample-slowdown syndrome and they don't sound as realistic as the rest of the tones. It's obvious no matter what preset you try. The PLG150-PF by comparison doesn't have this problem at all, but it sticks out like a sore thumb on the PLG150-AP. This is the AP's biggest flaw IMHO. BTW: the AP piano sounds very "stretch-tuned" to me with no non-stretched variations available.

The PLG150-AP seemingly has one purpose in mind: solo piano playing. It's more expressive than anything I've compared it to from Yamaha so far but I don't have a P250 or the like to compare unfortunately. But that damn lower midrange really seems like a small tragedy for what is otherwise a very nice expansion card.

A quick mention about the other sounds: they are all variations of the acoustic piano, with more/less reverb and EQ and then some have some S/H trickery with questionable usefulness. Pretty much what you expect... no EP's or clavs, although there is an imitation dulcimer patch.

Oh - need I mention that as usual with Yamaha the documentation is POOR! Not one word of how to use this card with the 9000 Pro yet again (I had a lengthy debate with Mark Anderson about this in regards to the PLG150-DR and he told me that they would address this problem in the future - they didn't). And there are parameters that have no definition/description at all in the thin manual, such as "DSP Stage2 (slow/fast)". This means what?

Yamaha includes a CD but there's only 324k of data on it which would've easily fit on a floppy, including demos and plug-in voice data for the Motif, S90, etc.

Is the PLG150-AP worth the money? IMHO, just barely... it could've been better.

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 11-05-2004).]

Great review, Jim.
Clear, concise, and unbiased, since I know you wanted to like it more. Nice job.

Jim, thanks for your review; I know that you are planning to add the PLG150-AP to the piano shoot-out, so I wonder: why don't you add also the Motif ES triple strike piano? That would be really

Jim, Great review! But now I'm not sure if I will be satisfied with this is board?

Right now I'm just using a Tyros and a classic Motif. Just curious; do you think this would be a significant upgrade to satisfy my need for a better piano sound?

I know sound is subjective, but I always value the opinion of one such as yourself, that has played a much larger variety of keyboards than I have had the opportunity to do.
Ed

I suspect it would be too dull sounding live with bass and drums. It sounds like you are thinking that way too.



[This message has been edited by alfredo (edited 11-05-2004).]

Thanks guys. Dreamer: the Motif ES is already on the shootout page - it's the first sample listed.

Ed: I think the AP is a good addition to the Motif but Alfredo may be correct: it is a dull-sounding board compared to the PLG150-PF. I found that working with the AP's velocity curve settings as well as the volume offset controls do affect this board's performance a lot, and there's a wide possibility of settings that change the tone. It may not be a fair comparison to put this with the rest of the piano shootout for that reason, but that probably won't stop me.

After thinking about it some more and playing tonight on my 9000 Pro with the PLG150-PF installed, I think the PF is a better choice for use with arranger or sequenced backing because it's consistantly bright. I suspect that what I don't really like about the PLG150-AP could be the choice of microphones used in the sampling process. Whatever the reason, the PF card sounds clearer to my ear. The AP card may suit piano-only players more than the PF.

I'll try to put some samples up soon to demonstrate.

Hi Jim, thanks for the candid review. I look foreward to hearing your samples.

Scott

Thank you, Jim; I was unaware of the addiction of the Motif ES to the piano shoot-out; I have seen that you have added also the Motif ES S700 patch (from the library CD).


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 11-06-2004).]

PLG150-AP Saga - Part Two

Last week when I posted my review of the PLG150-AP here I also crossposted it in the Motifator Plugboard forums. One of the reps from Yamaha immediately replied that the PLG150-AP will only play the raw sample data from the AP card - no voice data was included for the 9000 Pro. As soon as I had the chance, I installed the card in my Motif ES 8 and my faults with the sample transitions disappeared. In fact, the AP card in the Motif ES 8 sounds great - better than either it's own native "Full Grand" triple strike or the PLG150-PF. It's a beautiful mellow grand piano sound that I really like... good news for ES owners. The bad news is that the PLG150-AP sounds unpredictably different in other host instruments, unlike the PLG150-PF piano expansion card which sounds the same whether it is installed in a Motif ES or a 9000 Pro.

Clearly Yamaha knows the PLG150-AP won't sound good (or at least as good as it should) in the 9000 Pro but they market this card for use with this instrument anyway. The skimpy AP owner's manual doesn't tell you what to expect from each host instrument that is supposed to be compatible with the AP. Yamaha is practicing deceptive marketing here that borders on legal liability. It's one thing to stop supporting a discontinued keyboard but entirely another to make 9000 Pro owners believe they can add the kind of high-quality triple strike grand piano that they can get for the Motif ES. I would swear they have some kind of grudge against 9000 Pro owners.

If there is any gratification from all this besides having a nice update for my Motif ES 8, it is that a lot of Yamaha non-arranger customers feel the same way I do - many on the Motifator forum said that the PLG150-AP board should work fully in the 9000 Pro right out of the box if Yamaha is going to market the AP board for it. Yamaha reps haven't replied and I don;t expct that they will. I still recommend the PLG150-PF to 9000 Pro owners (I reinstalled mine) but as for any other PLG cards, including the PLG150-AP, buyer beware!

Hello,

Has anyone had any feedback on how the PLG150AP sounds with the Yamaha's S80 or Kenton's Plugstation as the host instrument?
Also, Yamaha on occasion, will make deceptive implications about some of it's products in terms of compatability. This is not just with the 9000 Pro.
Yamaha makes an output expander dubbed, the AIEB2, which primarily works with the Motif series, yet on the websites of most online
music gear retailers, they stated in their ad blurb that it will also work with the Yamaha S80 and CS6x.
When I called the technical support department, I was told that the AIEB2 wasn't
even tested with the S80 or CS6x.
Something not-so-different happened in regard to Mlan A-spec (the first generation
of Mlan) that appeared on products like the Presonus Firestation and the first Mlan 8E expansion module. Its an earlier protocol from Mlan B (on the Motif via the newer Mlan exp module 16E? and the O1X control surface/mixer) that according to them, isn't
directly compatable with the later Mlan B.
I would compare Yamaha's synths favorably in terms of patch programming flexibility over Roland (Fantom series) and some Korg (Triton is more user friendly, but some Korg stuff tends to be overly reliant upon the FX section to vary the sound palette and fill out the sounds), however, it is wise to check before you buy, whether with Yamaha directly, or forums such as this about any compatability issues between expansion products and discontinued instruments.
Again, would appreciate any feedback on how
the PLG150AP sounds in the S80 or Kenton Plugstation.

Best,


Soundman

Pro, that is raw that they would state that the PLG150-AP is compatible with the PSR9000 Pro when it won't produce it's specs in that instrument. A raw deal indeed for anyone buying it and who doesn't own a Motif like you do. Yamaha is so ... sometimes. I can't think of the bad word.

Beakybird

Yeah this last episode with Yamaha was the clincher for me, and nothing has changed in the last month since I made these initial comments. It's one thing for Yamaha to not support the 9000 Pro but it's quite another to not support new accessories so they will function fully in the 9000 Pro - this is a purposeful negligence and deceitful marketing. And trying to have an intelligent conversation with Yamaha about this is impossible... each rep says the other is mistaken and I'm convinced that the left hand (ie: pro keyboard division) doesn't know what the right hand (ie: home keyboard division) is doing. I'm sure they are all hoping that anything regarding the 9000 Pro will just go away, but for me and many others it will be a permanent reminder of their corporate incompetency and customer inconsideration.

My current Yamaha keyboards will satisfy my performing needs for the next few years as they are, and I will not buy any more "compatible" accessories. My long-term plans are to eliminate Yamaha products from my arsenal completely, as I did Roland products some time ago for the same reason - lack of support. Someday soon we'll have keyboards without compromises or excuses, and they wont be from Y/K/R.