Frank,AJ,Rikki and others..
Give me your views on sampling[do everything software],sequencing, recording[audio] programs with asio, vst, dx support, such as Halion Reason, Kontact etc.
I want a single do all program that will allow me to insert my own choice of sounds in a GM map, without limitations..
The program will have to work in a live performance environment.
If possible easy on the CPU..

I need your Pros and cons.

What is your gut feeling on the new to be Bandstand software?

Fran, I will start off with some overall concepts and approaches.

As you know I have adopted the approach that the Auto accompaniment utilizes lower quality sounds or instruments due to the need for the Wavetable to be GM/GS/XG compatible and accept program changes. I have used a highly modified version of sYnerGi GS together with LiveSynth Pro (other synths will work). There are at this point no very high quality GM wavetables which will accept program changes suitable for live performance needs.

For my lead or melody voices I use top of the line samples or virtual instruments, e.g., Bardstown's Bosendorfer, Garritan Strings and so on. I use these with a top of the line Sampler (Kontakt).

For my vocal harmonizers, I use DecaBuddy or Antares (industry standard).

Finally, I recommend the use of at least moderate quality effects, eg., those found in Sonar 4, etc.

To make it all work, I tie it together as a system with forte Ensemble. This host software is designed to work well in live performance situations. You could use other hosts such as Sonar, Cubase, etc. I find forte more reliable and efficient.

A system such as this can easily exceed the quality and effectiveness of any hardware based system and will do so for years to come. It sounds fantastic and is reliable....plus the price is reasonable. You can spend more and do even better. The good news is that you can start almost anywhere and slowly upgrade to suit your budget and your needs. Furthermore, the system is flexible, you can go into small details and change elements of one voice to changing out and adding new voices.....to changing the whole wavetable.

NI's Bandstand promises to be a good wavetable. Given NI's past track record ...it should be of good quality. Even so...if it isn't, just change the things you don't like and you are away to the races. This needs to be checked to see if NI lets you get into their wavetable and change out voices.

So you can go smaller (lower quality) sounds and effects for live performances to speed up the loading process and higher quality sounds and effects for studio work. You can do all this with the same system. If you must have SAVs then the world is your oyster, e.g., RealGuitar, NI B4 II, NI Guitar Rig, NI Akoustic Pianos, Analog Synths, Samples with Keyswitching (voilins with up and down bow, etc.) and so on and on. It is not to difficult to exceed the quality of today's top of the line arranger keyboards. To all of this there remains one problem...nobody can come up with a good virtual pedal steel for country music. Who would have thought?

Alternatively you can also use a combination of hardware and software, e.g., Workstation with Arranger Software, Arranger with software samplers for high quality lead voices, etc.

As I always say....the proof is in the pudding. I believe serious composers and screen writers (and more and more live performers) will continue to use software based systems. Those with massive budgets will always use real musicians with real instruments.

Fran just give up on your G1000 and your friends and start a new life with just software and a dumb controller keyboard. Make the system look impossible to your customers. Make your customers say to you....this little bit makes all these beautiful noises.....it just can't be can it??? Fran you can't lose....our newest minimalist.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-02-2005).]

Frank,
If I am not asking much, would it be possible for you to present us with an audio clip(s) of your setup? maybe a song you like or a midi file that triggers the appropriate sounds?
Theodore

We are about a week away from seeing if NI's Bandstand is the do-all GM program we've been wanting. There's several programs that can play GM SMF's, like Colossus and Reason (with the Omnisounds GM soundset) but none of them accept GM patch changes so they aren't quite ready for stage use without going to a lot of trouble. There's also soundfonts like AJ uses, but the holy grail is to find a great sample-based GM-compatible program and Bandstand has that potential, on paper anyway. Bandstand will be released November 7th.

BTW: I have to say that not all of Native Instrument's products are perfected - I've been hearing from some people who are very unhappy with NI's Akoustic Piano program so we can't take anything on faith.

Hi All
The GM is a Midi Standard that allows different instruments to work together with common voices, i.e.: No 1 is always a Piano etc, how the manufactures implement it is up to them.
Wavetable is just one type of synthesis, and is not used by all instruments; in fact if there was enough memory and hard disk space, the GM voices could all be Giga Samples if the manufacture so chose.
The main reason most of the GM sounds are rough, is because manufactures know that people will change them as soon as the General Midi file is loaded, to suit there own instruments, so consequently they spend little money on them

Bill

Esh, even if NI's Bandstand is only somewhat better than my modified sYnerGi GS Soundfont wavetable ... it will be worth it. In a case like this I will still keep using the top of the line instruments with kontakt for my lead or melody voices and Bandstand for the auto accompaniment.

And yes there are complaints about NI's software including kontakt. I use it with few problems if any. Keep in mind I use my music computer only for music...no internet, no editing, no testing, etc. All testing and editing is done on my general purpose computer and then transferred over to the music computer. Plus I use quality components (sound cards, video cards, HDs, and so on).

As always, for those who wish to hear the quality of the instruments I use go to the various sound developers web sites. They have professional highly qualified people doing their demos. If I provided a sound clip you would throw up your hands and say .... well that is worst thing I have ever heard.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-02-2005).]

Esh, here is a response from EastWest concerning program changes with Colossus:

'The Receptor/Colossus bundle was going to be Colossus Live, we just haven't formally named it as such - but it's the same package (and the deal ends November 15).

No, you can't do real-time program changes as the samples are big and need to be loaded - they load pretty quick though.

I hope that helps.

- Doug'

Frank: yeah, I knew from using Colossus myself about how much time it takes to load samples (not terribly long but not convenient for stage), and I knew about the Receptor package too. What Colossus actually does is load only the initial attack samples of the selected sound and then it streams the rest of the sound from the hard drive in real time, but even those attack transients take a lot of RAM and time to load. Colossus uses a modified NI Kontact engine as it's interface so there's a direct connection between Colossus and Bandstand. My gut feeling is that Bandstand likely is a baby-Colossus and uses the same Kontact-based attack transient/disk-streaming technology, but since Bandstand's soundbanks are a fraction of the size of Colossus then it should allow realtime program changes... in theory anyway.

I really didn't feel yet like investing in a Muse Receptor and Colossus is overkill for live use (excellent for studio use though - it has an unbelievably low noise floor and my recordings with it have been incredibly clean), so Bandstand looks like the perfect balance between sample size and loading time. I can't wait to try it... I just maxed out my laptop's RAM at 2 GB so we're both ready to go!

Hi Fran,
I'm only a nutty hobbyist with more money than talent ( which is a worry, ) haa haa.

Suppose it doesn't stop me from asking some questions , though, which may help some of the pro's guide you.

Are you actually planning on switching to a softsynth / software realtime arranger set up for stage work ie omb/softsynth/controller
or is the setup you're requiring more for studio work
ie you sequence your songs in your studio using a softsynth/sequencer to create midifiles, which you then use on stage for backing.


If I remember correctly your were using Hypercanvas , which to my mind, is probably nowhere near the quality of the other softsynths you mentioned.
I even prefer my soundfonts to my Hypercanvas, though I must admit I'm looking forward to Frank's assesment of Bandstand.

I don't require an expensive softsynth
( like Frank ) for playing melody as I play piano , so I use my Clavinova for melody. If I sang, I wouldn't even need that.

It would be great to have a good quality softsynth for the backing instruments/styles ( like bandstand) , even though I'm quite happy with soundfonts at the moment.

There's some really amazing software around. Sequencers like Sonar. Programs like Fruity Loops, etc
best wishes
Rikki

For me the ultimate system will be an arranger keyboard / software combination. It is hard to beat the control surface of an arranger keyboard for style selection and playing. If the new NI software accepts program changes, then the only issue left would be to make the arranger keyboard to send out program changes for each part of a style. It will be interesting to try this and compare the sound quality, sample load time, etc.

I am just now beginning to setup my new Receptor/Colossus multis. It does not take long to load a multi. Probably longest is the Steinway, but it would be worth waiting for. Gotta get my EW Symphony Orchestra over to it and hope agaist hope I can get Real Guitar installed. Lounge Lizard is already on it. I had considered adding anoter computer, but I after 2 weeks now, I really think Receptor is the answer. I will just add more if needed. Anyway, once you have experienced the real thing (as in huge samples), there is no turning back. (IMHO). I rarely use even the brand new Hammond XK3/147 now. My Tyros definitely can't compare nor any of the other hardware based instruments in my (modest) arsenal.

After listening very closely to the new T2 demos, I am almost certain the drums are comprised of the same tired, hard on the ears becuse of over compresion, lack of dynamics and expression (my opinion) drum voices they have pedaled for years. TOM, please what do you think re my last statement ?

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 11-02-2005).]

Danny, I agree with you....once you use the large high quality samples it is hard to go back to the workstation or arranger keyboards. The only thing they have is a better control surface. It is not an insurmountable issue. I have gotten used to controling my software based system.

Esh, I think you are on the right track especially for live performances.

Rikki, I think you should completely convert over to software based system and a dumb (no sounds or effects) controller keyboard. There are so many very high quality pianos samples out there. Besides using modern math 'if you have a lot and you spend a little you still have a lot'. Rikki the world is your crucible to mix all the best ingredients....

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-02-2005).]

Fran,

My current lineup is in some ways similar to what Frank uses, except that I use modules much more than sample sets, especially live.

Usually I open up Sonar as my host with an instance of Live Synth pro and a somewhat modified version of the SGM180 soundfont for my accomp voices. I too am hoping that NI's Bandstand offers some improvement, but if not, I'll continiue to work on the soundfont.

Style data is sent from OMB into Sonar and then LSP via Maple Midi's virtual midi cable. I can also do the same using FL Studio as my main host, but FL is more of a "studio host" for me, as I find it allows me to edit midi files and add plug ins very quickly and efficiently vs using Sonar. I just like the workflow better in FL

I substituted XLutop Chainer for Forte for playing lead / melody voices, but I think either is a great choice. I open Chainer in Sonar, and then can host a combination of up to 100 isntruments and effects in a single instance of Chainer. I use the Motif ES as my controller. I save presets in chainer that I can easily access by saving and then opening Chainer files.

Typically, I save 16 preset sounds / effects combis in one preset of Chainer. I simply save one instrument setup per channel, and then can quickly access any of the 16 by switching channels in the Motif's sequencer mode.

My favorite modules of late for lead voices come from the Plugsound family of modules. In my "bread and butter" Chainer preset setup, going to ch 1 on the ES opens the PS acoustic piano, Ch2 gives me a Rhodes piano, Ch3 gives me a clavi sound, ch a rock organ sound from B4, ch 5 a percussive organ sound from B4, ch 6 gives me an acoustic guitar from PS's freetd module, ch 7 a clean AC guitar from same module, ch 8 a slighly distorted Fender w / twin reverb from the same module, A great synth lead patch from NIs Pro53 on Ch9, etc etc.....

I also use the Antares vocal kit for vocals and harmonies.

I agree that after being exposed to the incredible sounds out there in the software realm that there aren't any hardware boards currently available that would make me want to put my software "away", at least not at the present time.

AJ

Thanks for the responses..
Let me explain where I am at with the soft synth world.

As Frank prefers, I also am using Forte[host].
My softsynths consist of Roland's Hypercanvas, Super quartet, Orchestral and DX1.
I also have M-Audio's Key Rig.
I also use Native instruments B4 and FM..

Arranger software, I use OMB and Jammer Live...

Other than SMF playback and single lead sounds, I have found the arranger programs live too uncomfortable, compared to the hardware arrangers..

When I added Key Rig, it has 4 modules and I can insert any of the modules into the GM module, allowing me to add a piano[piano module], synth[synth module], and organ[organ module]..I can mute a part from the GM module and select the channel on another module...Great but you pretty much have to keep a fixed map with the added module channels..for example , maybe a brass synth sound on channel 3, organ on channel 4, and piano on channel 1..

The weakness of the Key rig...a single drum kit,,,it sounds great but without the kits I am use to on my G1000..

Another question,, what do I have to set up to accomodate sound fonts? Please give me specifics..

Fran, Soundfonts are getting a little long in the tooth but they are not bad. You can start off with downloading (free) a wavetable such as the one recommended by AJ, namely SGM180. You can then acquire Soundfaction's Alive or use Creative Labs free Vienna to edit this table (change effects, change voices, replace voices, etc.). Finally you need a sample player to run the Soundfont Wavetable, e.g., LiveSynth Pro, SynthFont ( http://www.synthfont.com/ ), etc.

Even for the lower quality requirements for live performances, I would still recommend using higher quality lead or melody instruments. You could use the more moderate quality found in libraries such the Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, EastWest Colossus, etc. This in addition to any modules you may wish to use, e.g., B4, Guitar Rig, etc.

You can set this up similar to AJ's above example, i.e., separate instance of say kontakt with a separate instrument loaded on separate channels. The Auto Accompaniment would be run on a separate instance of the appropriate sample player say SynthFont within your host software.

I would like to ask AJ if he has tried the Plugsound GM Module and if he has what he thinks of it.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-03-2005).]

Hi Frank,
I couldn't get "Creative's Vienna" editor to work with my laptop, till I bought my Audigy NX2 USB sound card. I think you actually have to have a creative soundcard for "Vienna" to work.

Alive worked perfectly as an editor in the laptop, (even with the inbuilt sigma card) .

Kenneth's " Viena " editor, works without a creative soundcard, also. Haven't had a chance to try his latest synthfont midi player software.

Viena & Vienna, had me confused for a while, till I realized they weren't the same program

Actually SynthFont is a great way to test and see if soundfonts appeal, without going to the expense of buying a creative soundcard or software that supports fonts.

Now I use either my livesynth pro/forte setup ( which is far more flexible) or the audigy card for playing fonts.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]Fran, Soundfonts are getting a little long in the tooth but they are not bad. You can start off with downloading (free) a wavetable such as the one recommended by AJ, namely SGM180. You can then acquire Soundfaction's Alive or use Creative Labs free Vienna to edit this table (change effects, change voices, replace voices, etc.).

Frank,

I have 5 Plugsound modules to date, the GM module included. At 600 mb or so in sample rom, the sound quality is rather good for GM, but it is of little use for live performance backing voices because ( by design ) it does not recognize patch change data.

I also d/l'd Viena for use on my laptop Rikki, but have not given it more than a surface look to date. From what little I have seen, it does appear to mimic Creative's Vienna though.

Unfortunately, Live Synth Pro is no longer in production. There are several other options if you wanted to use soundfonts Fran, though I do agree with Frank in that their best days may be passing by, hence the reason I want Bandstand to work out as a permanent solution.

As far as using OMB live, I too thought it was a bit difficult vs my arranger boards, but after practicing a bit, I find that I have adapted well enough that it no longer is an issue for me.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-03-2005).]

I have downloaded the demo of OMB, but I found it troublesome having to press F1, F2 and so on to get to the different variations, and on my 61 Key keyboard, setting the lower octave for such things is out of the question.

Last, but not least, I find my fingers flying to the buttons of the Casio's variation buttons instead of the computer keyboard's function keys. Old habits never die....

So, regarding the "I can't adapt well to the way OMB changes styles etc" thing, has anyone here tried those little separate numeric keypads for laptops? These things could easily sit on an arranger or master keyboard and provide a number of keys easily accessible and on a "natural" place (above the left hand). Has anyone tried to use such a thing (ie configure OMB to trigger variations when you press the keys in this keypad).????
There are many types, mostly USB ones, older ones had a Y connector for the "real" keyboard
example:
http://www.goelectronic.com/Merchant2/me...ode=6+KEYS-MICE

This may or may not be a solution.

I use my Motif ES Trident and it's a breeze for me. My mod wheel does my fills, and my assignable knobs do my variation changes and intros / endings. I probably wouldn't even consider using OMB live if I had to use a qwerty kb or Pf functions to control it.

AJ

AJ, I don't know about you but for a GM Wavetable not to accept program changes seems to deminish its value. This is an issue with many of them. I guess you can always use the sounds for other purposes.

Thanks for your information on this.

THe other solution is to get a 76 note keyboard/controller. That way you can assign the lower notes to those functions.
Starkeeper

Hi Trident,
I set up the keys to suit myself. I don't use a lot of the functions , so I just left them out. I'd be luck to have a dozen or so keys actually assigned.
With my piano, I ended up getting a cheap remote computer keyboard, that I stand up against the music rest, rather than use the laptop keyboard. As far as I'm aware a numeric keypad won't work, ( better clarify, the small type of numeric keypad you mentioned) which is a REAL PITY. I suggested it to Jos at one stage, but so far I don't beleive it has been implemented as a function.


If you normally use your styles in sequence throughout the song ie go from vari1,to 2 to3, then you could use the higher, lower variation keys, plus there's a key for Intro/Ending and a key for Fills. So in short you could cut down the number of keys required on your computer keyboard.

One function I hadn't noticed for a long time was the presets. It's really great to be able to set everything up for a song , ready to go, just the same as in the keyboards.


best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]I

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-04-2005).]

Rikki,

In the current version, using PC keyboard 2, you can assign functions to the keys: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 - / that will be accepted both from the keypad as the main part of the keyboard. So that's exactly the 12 you needed. The num-lock must be on.

Jos

Hi Jos,
I use PC Keyboard 2 but since I alternate between using the laptop keys & the remote p.c. keyboard, I've found it easier for the time being to just use letters as my laptop doesn't have numeric keypad section.

A small numeric pad ( like Trident mentioned) http://www.goelectronic.com/Merchant2/me...ode=6+KEYS-MICE
would be much more convenient. My remote pc keyboard is really too clunky as it takes up my whole music rest. A nice little numeric keypad could be blutacked or somehow stuck to the midi controller. It would be perfect ( or at least for me) haahaa

best wishes
rikki

p.s. just in case I've misundertood, I am correct in saying it won't work with the type of numeric keypad Trident mentioned??

Sorry,I reread my post and realized what I stated could have been misunderstood.





[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-04-2005).]

Your welcome Frank. I agree btw. Of the 5 Plugsound modules I have, the GM is the only one that I find to be of little use to me, though it can serve some purpose when I sketch songs quickly in FL or Sonar, in that initially I only have to open one module.

Although later versions of Hypercanvas added the ability to read patch and banks changes, I have never gotten it to work properly. Not such a big deal, because Hypercanvas is fairly good, but certainly not the cream of the crop and and not as good sonically ( to me of course ) as Plugsound's GM module.

AJ

Rikki,

It will surely work on any numeric keypad. If the keypad works with a spreadsheet program it will work with OMB as well.

Jos

[This message has been edited by Jos Maas (edited 11-05-2005).]

don't know if this is important to the original poster, but does OMB recognize rootless chord voicings?

Thanks Jos,
I might do some checking out, and see how I go.
best wishes
rikki

Hi Oleg,
as far as I'm aware, keyboards do send out program changes ( or at least they used to).
I tried connecting a number of my keyboards to various synth modules over the years.

Problem was the bank & program changes within the style won't neccasarily match your sound modules program & bank changes.
Only way around it was to edit the styles and put in the correct bank , program change no's, adust volume etc etc.

It sort of worked with hardware sound modules ( though an awful lot of work and I gave up), don't know how you'd go with softsynths.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Fran,
you've got Forte, then all you need is a soundfont player & some fonts.
one option may be http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz%2B.htm
proffesional soundfont player.
There's a demo to try.
I gather you only want them for sttyles, not lead/melody voices.
best wishes
Rikki

Fran

If you have Sonar then you probably should have Live Synth pro as a DX plugin with it. That's how I am currently using Soundfonts. Open up an instance of LSP in Sonar, assign the midi output of your style player to the input of the LSP's midi channel ( select midi in "Omni" for all channels to play ), open up your soundfont in LSP and voila.. it works. You could substitute an app like Forte or SFZ+ for LSP as the soundfont host. I've also used the latter with no issues.

I use the Maple midi virtual midi cable as my connection between One Man band and Sonar / LSP.

AJ

Here is something else to consider. If you are going to use soundfonts for your backing instruments ( or any other sound modules for that matter ), don't forget to add a little reverb, and chorus effect. emphasis on a "little". Makes all the difference in the world for me.

Just as important, maybe more so, you need a DX / Vst eq effect. I have my PA80 and my softsynth setup side by side here. When I forget to turn the effects on the AJ2006,... forgettaboudit. It sounds pretty dull and lifeless. Turn them on and tweak properly, and it sounds very good even vs the PA80's lively styles. This is true for me when I'm using any number of different soundfonts. Even the Hubbe free font, which is maybe 60 mb worth of sounds, rocks when I "tune it up" right with just a sprinkling of effects.

If you guys try fonts without effects, chances are yer gooing to say something like " what are these guys talking about. these soundfonts sound poor vs my arranger "? OTOH, turn all the effects off in your arranger, and see how that sounds... Not so good I'm guessing ?


Fran, DNJ, everyone else interested.. here is the bottom line for me...

It takes some work to get the system to sound really good, but it can be done. I'm at that point already, though I can always add even more to it. With the right setup, you should be able to get the backing voices to at least be on par with if not exceed any of the top arrangers, and you can almost surely exceed the sonic quality of the lead or panel voices of any of them. Also, once you set your backing up with the best GM voices, using most of the different manufacturers style won't require the styles to be tweaked again to fit your system.

Part 2 is being able to set up a dedicated controller so that it is as comfortable for you to use as your hardware arranger in a live setting. I'm not quite there yet. Physically playing is the easy part. It's already become second nature for me to use my mod wheel to trigger fills, my ribbon controller to change variations ( up and down is all I can do with that but I could use the adjustable knobs to pick and choose ), and my sliders to trigger intros and endings. That's the easy part. What I don't have or cannot access easily ( but may be able to incorporate at some point ) might be very important to some guys, may not matter to others:

No registrations ( though in apps like Sonar or FL I can save / reopen as many setups as I like )

No screen like an arranger ( though I'm told you can add an external mini screen and keypad )

No multipads per se ( you can trigger sequences like an arp using certain keys or controllers. There are quite a few programs that support arps and several vst arp progs as well.

You could use an external harmonizer and link thru One Man Band.

For me.. I can live with a somewhat crude interface ( when it comes to not having easy access to my setups, no real multipads, etc ). I don't do this everyday for a living, and the gigs I do play are usually relaxed, in that I can get away ( sometimes very nicely ) with doing acoustic stuff without even turning on the arranger a large percentage of the time. That's when having great lead voices is a huge plus. For someone else, you may be very limited by not having all the bells and whistles right in front of you where you need them, or.... you may be able to find good workarounds that I haven't thought of.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-08-2005).]

For those of you that like the idea of the computer and soft synths etc, but baulk at the thought of having to set everything up, (Including the more items you need to transport to a gig) then don’t forget the Wersi instruments which essentially have all the above, but built into a normal Arranger Keyboard, which means you wont have to worry about all the setting up, and if your used to arranger keyboards, you will be able to play straight away.
For those that already have there set ups, then an arranger (Even if it does have the same capabilities) might not suit, but since I changed from Midi Controller, Computer and Software back in 2004, I haven’t looked back.
Just a thought.

Bill