Midnite,
I agree with you much ado over nothing.
Terry

I know of no digital product providing a digital out by putting the final analogue signal through a A/D converter, and if they did, the designers deserve to be shot!

One big advantage of digital out is for making your own audio cds on a pc. It does not matter if you have a $10 or a $1000 soundcard, you get the same top quality recording.

Midnight: I do not wanna buy Motif simply because it's not an arranger. And yes, Motif has way better features than any arranger right now.

You might wanna say that I can't get everything in one box. True. But can it be done? yes. Will I pay for an arranger Motif for $5000? Oh yes. And it's not only because of digital I/O. It's because of a good sequencer, ability to add cards with sounds, arppegiator, AWESOME drum kits, real-time effects, you can tweak the sound any way you want, great support (just look at motifator.com), I can go on more on that. Do not tell me you wouldn't want all that. I just hope Yamaha would read this message instead of yours who just simply saying: OK, dont have this or that and too much $$$ for Tyros, but it's OK with me, don't even bother putting whats a MUST....

I'm sure Tyros is a good machine, but it doesn't mean we can't mention what we would want in it.

New Yorker,
While I think the Mofif is a nice board....I had one before my PA 80, it has quite a few short comings too, as do all boards. For one, the arppegiator isn't anywhere near that of a Triton dual arp setup. It has some polyphony issues too. It was not very user friendly either. I thought the sequencer was just short of a nightmare to operate.
Would I love to see an arranger/workstation combo you bet.
Terry

Who the hell cares? This is the first time a digital output seemed a necessecity in any arranger keyboard, of course after the fact it is announced. Sorry if seem a little harsh, but if your REALLY that interested in good sound quality for your studio, you WONT look for an all in one solution, because nothing exists. No triton, 9000, etc, will ever make that proffessional sound you are all looking for. If you think about it, if there was a full proof all in one solution, everything else would become obsolete, and do you really think that is going to happen?
And I am not so anti-arranger person, I owned the g1000 and now the pa80 and love them. But if i really lead myself to believe there will ever be a PERFECT keyboard, I would take myself to the hospital and detox myself, because I must be high on some major drugs. Appreciate the improvements that these componies try and give to you. And you won't get so angry if you didn't shell out 3grand everytime a new keyboard came out. If your interested in your studio, buy a good computer and a good sound card with good converters, or a seperate converter that sounds incredible.

Had to vent sorry...

Macbabbi: disagree completely. You can make awesome music with just one decent workstation. If you can't - than you won't make good music with 100 keyboards in your studio. Sorry.

Trtjazz: I tried Motif for a week. Sequencer is very powerful and you just need to learn how to work with it, like with any keyboard. You can't judge a sequencer on Motif by "playing" with it in a store. It was nightmare for you, and it was pleasure for me, so I think it's a matter of a mind set: What's hard for you is easy for me and vice versa.

According to motifator, polyphony issue is solved with Motif.

Yes, arppegiator is much better on Triton than Motif. Well, what is your point? I believe Tyros doesn’t have any…

Um no one is talkinga about music in this case. I am talking about proffessional digital sound, which is now a requirement for some od-ball reason. Arranger workstations are made for live situations, and for song writing ideas. It is not meant to be the easy way out of making music and proffessional arrangements. Anyone who ONLY uses that for their arrangements, will never have that PRO sound you are all striving for. My point was, if you really want that SOUND, your not going to get it from a keyboard alone, actually NEVER. Why do pre-amps, g4's, Sound cards, etc, exist then? I will never believe that one single arranger keyboard will ever take the place of all that.
As far as making music, you are right, you can make great music with a single workstation, but it will always miss something. Live is a different story. I am still amazed what the PA80 does for a live situation. You'll never ever believe that I am playing ALL of that music live with all of my own programmed rhythms.

So again, I'm talking sound, not music,

Thanks
-Alfred

I thought not to reply at all to end this discussion which was NOT only about digital out but the features that all arrangers miss compare to non-arranger workstations.

Yes, the sound cards/gear exists to create a pro sound... But where this sound should come from? Well, that was the point that if the sound comes from digital out (from an arranger) it creates a very clear audio vs. analog (and then a/d conversion). So you do need digital outs FOR great sound cards to receive the sound.

Anyway, lets just end this discussion, my point was about features on arrangers and non-arrangers and the price.

Fine that Tyros doesn't have digital I/O, fine that it doesn't have sampler, fine that there is no arp, fine that there are crapy drums (outdated) and so on. But I tell you what's in there that outdo any workstation in relation to what it does and what Yamaha ask for it: about $2600 (if u buy in Europe).

It should cost no more than $1900 for what it has and what it does. That was my point.

New Yorker,
Two things....I owned a Motif for about 8 months, not just looked at one in a store, but you're right easy for one hard for the next.

I guess you missed my point entirely here:
"Yes, arppegiator is much better on Triton than Motif. Well, what is your point?"

My point was that none of us will ever see the perfect board with the perfect functions in everything and each board is some sort of compromise.

"I believe Tyros doesn’t have any…"

And is why I said I would love to see a combination arranger/workstation. For me though and the work I do, if I have to opt for one or the other which I do like everyone else does,(in just 1 board) I prefer an arranger.
jam on,
Terry




[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-13-2002).]

If the KN7000 demos are an example of the benefits of having digital out, then I would rather stick to analog! From what I have heard, the 7000 is thin, edgy, cold and clinical, it reminds me of the first phase of cd players that hit the market. I prefer warm evocative sounds, fat warm bass and the sounds that old roland synths produced.. I think Yamaha keyboards to date have achieved a warm and more natural sound, whether its because of analog outs I dont know but for me having digital outs isn't going to make any difference at all. This keyboard is intended as an arranger, a performance keyboard, I dont see many pro studios using them but even if thats the case, I dont think that the analog outs are going to be the death of the Tyros! The psr740 schematic showed it was quite simple to access the digital ins to the D-A convertors before the analog stages, I dont think it would be a problem to fit an aftermarket conversion if required - though you could also think about upgrading (if necessary) the analog output components, op amps etc. I think the analog stages help to smooth off the nasty digital roughness that otherwise creates cold lifeless music...

Simon



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Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
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