Ok Gang! I'm keeping my hopes up that Roland has finally decided to come on board and add 'rootless' jazz style chord recognition on the G70 with OS 2.0 version.

G70 owners who have updated to OS 2.0. PLEASE perform the following Chord Recognition test and report back your results:

In auto accompaniment Split KB mode, play the following 3-note chord voicings (in the keyboard area left of split point) and report back if the G70's chord recognition results are anything similar to what is shown below:

1) F1-C2-E2 : Dm7(9)
2) F1-B1-E2 : G7(13)
3) E1-A1-D2 : C69
4) E1-Bb1-D2: C7(9)

The above chord voicings & associated chords (and in all 12 keys = 48 chords) are now included in the arranger chord recognition table of the following keyboard manuafacterers:

Ketron
Korg
Technics
Yamaha
Ketron

I only HOPE that Roland has finally come on aboard with this because this chord voicing type (and in all keys) are the basic chords played universally by jazz inspired keyboard musicians worldwide.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

Judging by your comments it Sounds like your ready for a 76 key Arranger Scott....being your mostly a Piano style player I'm suprised to see you going for another 61 vs a 76 this time around where you could open up and really let your pianoesque full keyboard fingering style of playing really shine

What happens if you play #3) E-A-D but want A Sus??

I HATE systems that make you HAVE to finger a chord a certain way, If I need a C6/9 I'll play one, thank you very much! Better than accidentally getting it when I meant A Sus! (if I need C6/9 I play C-D-E-G-A - how hard is that?)

Scott
On my G-70 Split Arranger Mode I got:
(1) FMaj (2) G7(13)
(3) ASus (4) Bb b5
In Piano mode (full keyboard) I got:
(1) F(3) (2) G7(13)
(3) ASus/E (4) Bb b5(E)

Out of curiosity I did the same on my KN7000
Split Arranger Mode:
(1) F (2) F
(3) ASus4 (4) Bb b5
In KN7000 Piano Mode:
(1) Dm7(9) (2)G13
(3) C6(9) (4)C7(9)

....and now I am confused!!
Keith

[This message has been edited by KeithB (edited 10-15-2005).]

Dnj,

I'm sure it's no secret I will not buy another 61 key arranger. I feel Scott is on the right track in checking the G70 for useability and I'm waiting anxiously for these finding.

Al

Scott, educate me?
Your jazz chord recognition examples...you refrain from the root and fifth of each chord illustrated...Probably used as passing tones with in the chord sequence..

Why can we not use the inverted bass option? By selecting a bass note ,other than the root and/or fifth..it will stay out of a bass players way...at least I think the root/fifth will not revolve in the arranger/style..

Dear Scott;

Why do you want to know if the G-70 has the rootless chord recognition? You already bought the tyros 2.

Regards;
BN

I'll continue (for gigging) to utilize a 61 note arranger KB because it's smaller and lighter . . . PERIOD!

As I've repeatedly stated, "auto accomp mode" style playing (for me) requires no more than 61 keys, and doesn't require using the octave +/- buttons either. Auto accomp style playing requires an entirely different playing approach than solo piano/keyboard. Solo playing requires more keyboard real estate (additional octaves) to allow for playing left-hand arpegios, octave strides, bass lines, etc. In auto accomp playing, the auto accomp provides all of this, with the LH's only job to trigger the chords, plus rhythmic comping and/or (smooth) chord transition changes. In split keyboard mode, with the split point set at F#2, I find 1-1/2 octaves quite sufficient to handle this task, leaving 3-1/2 octaves (G2-C6) available for everything played with my RH. Hey, this is only a 1/2 octave less than available on an 88 note piano above middle "C". The only time I require more keys is for true solo piano style playing. For 'some' piano works, even a 76 note keyboard is not enough. But for gigs that I want to really showcase solo piano playing, I'll simply take my Roland A-33 76 note controller and midi it to my 61 note Tyros. This offers me the gig flexibility of only having to bring more keys if/when it's really required.
I'll still continue to utilize my 27 lb Tyros (and soon to be T2) because of its significantly lighter weight & smaller size. My interest in a 76 note arranger is primarily for 'solo keyboard' style STUDIO work and recording.




Come on Dikki, Just how often have you found it neccessary to play a 3rd inversion Asus cord? I seriously doubt this has come up very often (if at all) in your playing. Play A1-D2-E2 instead

It's important to realize in keyboard playing, that it's not merely which chords & associated inversions you play, but 'how' you play them in succession to create a chord progression with "smooth" voice leading. This means chord changes where the individual chord tones don't jump more than a whole (Major 2nd) step between chords.

The single strongest (up a perfect 4th) chord progression and 'most often' seen in the American Songbook (aka Jazz Standards) is the II-V7- I Chord Progression. When playing solo piano, it's perfectly acceptable (and expected) to INCLUDE the root of the chord , but in a 'combo' situation that includes a bass player, the rhythm section keyboard player is expected to leave the root out, and let the bassist do it. Because the role of the rhythm section keyboard player, playing on an arranger keyboard (in auto accomp mode) is essentially the same, this applies equally here as well, because the 'auto-accompaninement bass part' supplies the chord's root tones. If an acoustic keyboard player played this way on a jazz style gig with pro players, believe me, they wouldn't be called back to play with them ever again.

That said, there is a specific chord progression kb voicing that pro (especially jazz) keyboard players use to achieve 1) smooth voice leading, and 2) chord voicing which don't include actually playing the root. This includes this variation of the II-V7-I rootless chord progression popularized by the late Jazz legend, Bill Evans, and now played by Diana Krall, Jamie Cullum, and countless other contemporary keyboard artists as well:

II: Dm7(9): F1-C2-E2
V7: G7(13): F1-B1-E2
I : C69 : E1-A1-D2

The above is recognized by Ketron, Korg, Technics, and Yamaha.




Keith, first of all, many thanks for performing the above G70 OS2.0 test.

I fully understand your confusion. Not only have arranger manufacterers not yet come to a consensus on chord recognition itself, but also how they recognize them in split vs full keyboard modes.

Interestingly enough, ONLY Technics has been able to fully implement advanced jazz chord recognition in 'full keyboard' mode. Yamaha & the others have not successfully implemented this in full keyboard mode, yet found a way to get around it by implementing this in split mode, freeing your right hand to provide the chord voicing alterations (b9, #11, etc) without affecting the LH recognition. If only Yamaha could now implement what Technics has already beautifully achieved in full keyboard mode, yet maintain what Technics doesn't do in 'split-mode', I think it would make everyone happy, from the amatuer to the pro, and further arranger kb appeal to even more keyboard players out there.


Correct, in jazz style kb playing, the root & 5th are typically the first notes to be eliminated when adding chord extensions: 9ths,11th, 13ths.

Fran, I believe your 'on bass' example is intended for an entirely different situation, and different than what's needed here. I want the auto accomp bass to still provide the typical bass line patterns, including walking bass (including root tone). The purpose of the rootless 'keyboard voicings' is so I can play live (as the keyboard player) chordal comping which don't include the root, yet still trigger the auto accomp bassist to provide this.



BlkNotes: Huh?! Is there a law that says we're not allowed to own more than one arranger keyboard?

As I stated earlier in this thread, I'll continue to utilize the 61 note Tyros2 for most all gig situations, and (possibly) purchase a 76 note arranger for studio work & recording. I'm not commiting yet if/what 76 note arranger I will (if any) buy, but having a 76 note arranger not only expands the solo piano style 'recording' possiblities, but further expands on the impressive sounds/styles of the Yamaha Tyros2 as well. . . a good thing I'd expect. It's not a Yamaha is better than Roland, Ketron, Korg, etc thing for me. I seek any keyboard(s) that works best for my musical taste & specific playing requirements.

Scott

Scott wrote: For 'some' piano works, even a 76 note keyboard is not enough. But for gigs that I want to really showcase solo piano playing, I'll simply take my Roland A-33 76 note controller and midi it to my 61 note Tyros. This offers me the gig flexibility of only having to bring more keys if/when it's really required.

Scott, I didnt know you had a Roland A-33?
Can you elaboate on this Controller, keyfeel, navagation, etc, etc. ?
Im looking at a newer A-37 as we speak......

Yep, have owned the Roland A33 for quite a few years. Though it doesn't include fully weighted piano action, it has a very nice key feel & great response for a synth-action controller, relatively lightweight (17.86 lbs) for its time, well constructed, and well suited for portable easily transportable 76 note solo keyboard playing.

Donny: don't mean to appear nosey, but I'm curious WHAT keyboard are you currently playing now? I assume you're 'no longer' happy with the Yamaha PSR3000 as you seemed to be only a few short months ago. If so, WHY the sudden change in opinion? Did you sell one (or both) of your PSR3000's?

Scott

Scott, Donny is listening more to what I have to say....lately..

Fran definitly knows his stuff

Scott.....To answer your question I'll be brief,
I have sold one of my 3k's.....I am still using a 3k on stage at this time for the last year, but honestly, Although it has held up exceptionaly fine and is in excellent condition because I pamper all my gear & is in tip top shape all kept in cases & sounds wonderful, Im just putting up with its many "quirks" for MY STYLE of playing & performing, there are certian things I like & some that I don't & I dont want to start a Tissy fit here. But after experiencing a great Demonstration by Prince AJ I am exploring other avenues, a Midjay & Roland 76 key controller is in my very near future possibly an A-30, A-33 or the newer A-37. I also antto weed myself of using a laptop also for many reasons... Equipment, & Ideas have been CHANGING VERY RAPIDLY thru the years & it's just about time to move on.
We'll see ?




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2005).]

Warning: Based on what Fran himself stated below, this might be a cause for concern :

Why would you want your autocomp to recognize rootless chord voicings? The autocomp should play roots to make correct bass lines. When you play in autocomp mode, your hands are two different musicians. Your left is your bass player, and your right is your soloist. Just play regular vanilla chords with your left, and use the hip rootless/quartal voicings with your right.

One of the advantages of having autocomp recognizing rootless chord voicings is that as a keyboard player, you could play a solo as you would if you were playing in a jazz combo (drums, bass, piano and or guitar/horns.)

If you were performing a solo in a jazz combo, you would mostly comp rootless chord voicings with the left hand and do a solo in the right hand.


With an arranger that has rootless chord voicings as a feature, you would not have to change your chord voicings technique much. In full auto comp mode, you can still use the cordless voicings in the left hand and do a solo with the right hand (with a solo instrument like organ, guitar, sax….) This way you still get the root of the chord being played because even if you are using rootless chord voicings, the arranger is smart enough to play the correct root of the chord with the bass sound.

If you wanted to do the same thing with an arranger that does not have rootless chord voicings, you would have to do a lot of major chord voicing adjustments that go out of the norm of playing jazz. To me that is too much work. In addition, you just can not get the same sound as if you were using rootless chord voicings.

A D minor 9th voiced rootlessly on an arranger as F1 C2 E2 is and sounds completely different from a make do voicing such as D1 E1 F1 C2 or F1 C2 D2 E2. Not to mention those chords where you have to play the root note, feels very strange in the hands.


In addition to full piano mode, this is another way I would play the arranger using rootless chord voicings. In autocomp mode, I would use a stile with just the drums and the bass. I would have a left hand sound with a piano and a right hand sound with an organ or some other solo type instrument. I would comp (play chords) in the left hand with the piano sound using chordless voicings knowing that the keyboard would smartly have the bass sound play the root of the chord even though I my self am not playing it. Then in the right hand I wood do a solo or what ever I want to do with the hand.





[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-17-2005).]

"to the genesys" has provided a well written explanation why.



doc-z: I think you may be confused. In auto-accompaniment mode, it's simply NOT POSSIBLE for your left hand to actually play bass lines "as the bass player" would.

The left hand's job (in auto accomp: full fingered split kb mode) is to trigger auto accomp chord recognition, and when emulating a jazz combo setting, with left voice on, and set to acoustic piano, provide the authentic sound of 'left-hand' jazz piano comping. In addition, your right hand, when set to the same LH 'acoustic piano' voice, can play stacked chord tone extension & alterations , providing a rich "2-hand" chord comping sound ala McCoy Tyner, while the arranger chord recognition remains triggered by what's played with your LH.

For instrumental soloing (sax, guitar, flute, etc), as "to the genesys' said, the right can freely play solos, while the left hand acts as the acoustic piano rhythm section player, providing the 'rootless comping chord' sound of an authentic jazz rhythm section piano player in a combo, yet able to trigger the auto accomp bass to play 'root based' bass lines. There is NO WAY to achieve this unless you play the rootless chords that I outlined above.


Yes, though this may work, it is extremely limiting. First of all, you would need to turn-OFF the LEFT voice. This would severely limit comping chords possibilities to whatever you can play with your 'right hand only'. Playing rootless chords in the left-hand allows you to fill the chord out with the right hand (stacked 4ths) to provide a much harmonically richer chord comping (ie: McCoy Tyner) sound: example:

F13: (LH: Eb1-A1-D2)(RH: G2-C3-F3)

In addition, your method, eliminates the possibility of playing the melody or instrumental soloing with your right hand.

Scott

Of course you could always get a Midi Pedal Board, and play the Bass Lines yourself, like a lot of Jazz keyboard players do.

Yes perhaps, but then I wouldn't need my arranger keyboard anymore either, so probably wouldn't be hanging out here on the SZ Arranger forum any longer either. I prefer delagating the bass line job to my arranger's auto accomp, and sticking to what I do best: playing live keyboard parts . . . with my fingers. - Scott

I didn't mean that you literally play bass lines. I meant you used your left to tell the bass player what to do. Usually the bass player uses roots.

Rootless left hand chords doesn't make sense to me in an arranger setting. Well yes if you are used to playing rootless chords with your left, and can't quickly adjust to using roots, well then I can understand it. But it must be confusing for the arranger too. Let's say you play a Dm9, but rootless (F - A - C - E) with your left, then how can the arranger know if it should play Dm9, or Fmaj7?

[This message has been edited by doc-z (edited 10-19-2005).]

Can we get back on point for a second because this is important for me:

Scott, what is the final outcome of the Jazz chord voicings on the Roland G70? Did Roland get it right; i.e. similar to the Tyros? I saw your post regarding full keyboard mode, but in Advanced AI mode, did Roland get it right?

Al

Al, based on the Keith's G70 OS 2.0 findings (above), Roland still HAS NOT got it right with Jazz Chord Voicings, though they do manage to recognize ONE rootless voiced chord, G7(13): F1-B1-E2 . Unfortunately none of the above G70 chord voicings allow you to play a smooth II-V7-I jazz (rootless style) chord progression as you can with Yamaha, Korg, Technics, and Ketron. ie:

Dm7(9): F1-C2-E2
G7(13): F1-B1-E2
C69 : E1-A1-D2

I wonder if/when Roland will finally wake-up to this. I admit it certainly took Korg long enough to include this, but they F - I - N - A - L - L - Y did, so I keep up faith up that Roland eventually will as well. The fact is, that when I started out playing arranger kbs (mid 90's), ONLY Technics included rootless chord recognition,. Other kb manufacturers slowly began following suit (albeit under constant nagging by me and others?) to convince them that its an IMPORTANT arranger feature for the professional keyboard player. Only Roland & GEM haven't heard it 'loud enough' yet I suppose. Back in high school we'd scream: "I want my MTV". Now it's "I want arranger rootless chord recognition" - Scott

I think I can understand why a 'straight-ahead' player might want these voicings, but you DO have to give up the ability to play any chord in any inversion you want and still get the correct chord.

You asked why I would ever play a 3rd inversion Asus? How about this........... Play (in the key of E) the chords of E, A, Asus, and A , a common enough change (perhaps not jazz enough for you, but prevalent in pop!). The way I would finger it would be EG#B - EAC# - EAD - EAC#. This removes the need for a change of hand position and is the correct way (or one of them!) to get voice leading for those particular chords.

Rootless chord recognition forces you to play certain chords in certain inversions - kind of tyrannical behavior not often endorsed by jazz players! I prefer to not have to remember 'don't play 3rd inversion sus chords, the machine will play something else entirely'.

The only way I see for this to work would be for a preference so you could turn it off when you don't need it.

Anyway, to answer your first question - No, the G70 doesn't do rootless voicings. On the other hand, it's piano sound (The Grand X) is the warmest, most detailed and playable piano sound of ANY arranger (and workstations, too!), and incredibly low latency - you get a real feeling of being 'connected' to the sound. You have to go to a GigaSampler rig to find anything that sounds better (if you can afford the cost of a system that's low latency enough to play it 'live'). So what's more important - rootless voicing recognition, or a piano sound that makes you feel you are playing one (action aside)?