I think I've posted about vocal training for myself on here (I guess those threads are gone) but this isn't about me. I made a new friend down here and she happens to be pretty hot. But that's beside the point, eh?

So, she likes to sing and we became friends and I have worked up some songs for her where I play guitar for her and she sings. Her voice is very unique. It's different and very sexy. She's 31 but sounds like a little kid. Her voice is kind of wispy or airy sounding. She likes Norah Jones. She reminds me of the Aussie Kasey Chambers except Kasey Chambers' voice is more gravelly. She also reminds me kinda of the girl who sings lead with The Indigo Girls.

Anyway, my friend... if she has any downfall, it's going flat on notes. Sometimes when she does a song well, it is outstanding. But often, she goes flat.

ALSO... sometimes she canNOT start on the right key. I will know the key of the song. I'll start in "G" or whatever and she'll be nowhere near "G." (To me, that's a pretty serious downfall for a singer.) I will sing the opening note, have her hit it and then she'll wander right back off of it and be singing in something totally different. This embarrasses her but hey, what can I do? I just try to find whatever key she happens to be in. It gets awkward.

So, reason for the post... this girl really wants to sing. But I think she has no prayer if she doesn't get better. And to me, it seems, either you have it or you don't. She doesn't have it. But I was wondering if you guys think with maybe vocal training, could she learn this?

Some singers nail every note. Heck, I go flat on some notes and I go "Ugh, that sucked." But her problem is quite serious. I'll put it this way... I think it (now) keeps her from being able to pull this off. Her voice is VERY unique and she picks out some really cool songs to do. And that is all good. But flat is not.

All of the voice training in the world will not help if she doesn't have an ear, and from what you have described, this is the likely scenario.

Good luck,

Gary

Here's my 2 cents:

Make a few recordings of her, and play them back. If she can identify where she's off - then vocal training will help. If not she doesn't "have it".

SemiLiveMusic,

The fact that 'sometimes' she sings a song well (and in tune) gives me the impression that her problem is mostly due her lack of the knowledge of vocal 'support' and vocal production techique. I think the right vocal coach can teach her the basic mechnanics of singing: diaphramic breathing & support, breath control, and vocal placement, of which applies to no matter what type of music one sings (from opera to jazz, to hiphop). I feel the important thing to look for in a vocal coach (especially pop style music) is someone who can help her to bring out her own unique sounding voice, and not turn her into a generic sounding perfect pitch singer (boring). I suggest checking out the good vocalists performing in your area and find out who they use when they have vocal problems (and we all do). Another suggestion is to checkout the local colleges in your area and have her enroll in a voice class, and better yet, something I recommend to ALL aspiring singers & musicians out there, enroll in an 'ear training' class. The ability to recognize & sing all intervals (both ascending & descending) as well as the chords (in all inversions) can do wonders in improving ones ear & musicianship. I have observed first hand many a music student who couldn't sing in tune before, eventually become terrific singers as a result of ear training.

The great thing is that there are some terrific computer programs which include ear training tutorials. I like to use these myself to brush up on my interval recognition.

Here are a few 'ear training' programs to checkout:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Software/Windows/ear_training.html



Whenever I accompany a singer (on the piano) especially begining singers or ones I've not worked with before, I always remember to play a strong intro with a I-VI-II-V7-I or IV-V7-I turnaround, with the dominant V7 chord leading into I (the first chord of the song). The strong V7-I chrod progression greatly assists the singer into getting into the proper key and hitting the right beginning note.

I can't say whether vocal training will actually help 'her' or not, but being a voice teacher myself, I have seen great improvement, especially if her problem has more to do with vocal technique then a tin ear. The fact that you say she's able to sing on key in some instances makes me believe their may be hope (as a singer) for her. Good luck.

Scott

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http://scottyee.com

Most community colleges offer voice training courses, and some offer them as evening classes. If she is serious about a singing career, and if she does not have a tin ear, I would highly recommend the community college route. It's not very expensive, and usually is a one or two night a week program. However, if she has a tin ear, the program will be of no benefit. I have auditioned dozens of female vocalist over the past five years, many of which could sing a few songs well, but the vast majority could not carry a tune in a five gallon bucket. Some folks just can't sing! Give it a shot--the only thing she has to loose is the tuition, and that doesn't amount to much at the community college level.

Gary

Gary

Lower necklines and higher hemlines will make the flat notes almost disappear!

Scott is spot on.

So is UD for that matter.

Or buy a Roland Discover 5. This board has a setting to Auto adjust your voice pitch.

1. Let her sing without you playing, the tune she is having trouble with.
2. Find out what key she is singing in.
3. play an intro in that key let her sing and see what happens.

Give her a few shots. If, after playing the intro like I said and she sings in a different key after several tries, like Gary said, she's helpless.

Some people can listen to a note 50 times with 50 tries and can never hit the note on pitch.

I hear people talk about so and so has perfect pitch because he can sing any note you name. I can do this and I'm sure others here can do it also.

HOwever for me to do it you have to hit me a C note to get in my head and then I can sing the dom 7th, MAJ 7th so on and so forth. Those of you who think you can't, practice it. You'll be surprised.

If she has trouble singing on key just have her switch to singing country music then no one will notice.

Having 'perfect pitch' is when someone is able to sing any requested note that is named (by someone else) arbitrarily in thin air, and without another note needed to be played first, while 'relative pitch' is when someone is able to sing any requested note, after an inital note (such as C) is played first.

Having 'perfect pitch' is a very rare gift (or curse to many). You are either born with it or not. It cannot be learned or developed. Here's a link to some informative articles re: Perfect (absolute) vs Relative Pitch:
http://www.amarilli.co.uk/piano/perfectp.asp
http://courses.dce.harvard.edu/~musie139/PerfectPitch.html
http://www.edwardwillett.com/Columns/perfectpitch.htm

Here are a few famous musicians/singers who possess perfect pitch:

Julie Andrews
Ludwig van Beethoven
Mariah Carey
Nat King Cole
Bing Crosby
Ella Fitzgerald
Yo-Yo Ma
Wolfgang Mozart
Oscar Peterson
Frank Sinatra
Barbara Streisand
Stevie Wonder
Brian Wilson (Beachboys)


BTW (just in case you're wondering) I myself don't possess 'perfect pitch' , but have developed good 'relative pitch' recognition thru interval ear training. Curious who on this forum actually has 'perfect pitch'.

Scott

I may have it, Scott! I always tended to sing things in my head at the correct pitch, but I can't sing at all!

So I just went over to my piano and hummed a middle C, played a middle C and they were spot on! Well, I waited five minutes and tried it with F. Spot-on! Problem is, I had to register C in my head and then mentally go up the scale to get F. I imagine real perfect pitch people could just immediately produce the F.

But with middle C I am 100% on at all times (I've tried it about ten times now and it's always right).

So I guess I have semi-perfect pitch!

Tommy

I have a friend who has perfect pitch. He is blind. You can hit any chord, or even dis-chord and he can immediately tell you every note. He remembers and recognizes phone numbers by the pitch of the beeps.
He is also a wonderful musician and vocalist. He plays keyboard, clarinet, sax, flute, harmonica and BAGBIPES, all equally well.
He no longer plays music for a living but now works as a computer troubleshooter. His music is now dedicated to church services, and he is also an ordained minister.
He has two brothers, also blind, and they all have perfect pitch. His sister, who is not blind, can't sing a note on key.
DonM

What does this exactly mean?


Also Scottyee I tried a couple of those programs but they all seem geared towards training your ear to catch the right note. Is there a program that will train you to HIT the right note?

This is interesting subject for me and I may have a phenomenon that no others have, but then again maybe many others have.

when I hear from one ear the TONE is a bit off relative to hearing it from the OTHER ear! My ears are not in TUNE lol. But really, this is true, and I tested it many times.

My ears both have very close if not absolute pitch, and I can take a guitar and tune it by ear better than any scale tuner, BUT when I sing I sometimes am a bit OFF pitch and I HATE THAT WHEN I HEAR IT IN MY RECORDINGS. I am not sure if its due to my "ear" problem and I sing once hearing tone in one ear and once in the other and thats when I go off tune a bit (and its like maybe 1/8 tone off not more). Can this be trained to go away?

I play/sing arabic music as most of you know by now, which is based more on melody than chords. I have only been singing for 2 years (I been playing for 23 years though - 14 on keyboards). I will take any advise you can give on text (how do u train for abdominal breathing for example)...and that thing that UD talked about.

I would go take a training course, but my work schedule does not allow it, so the advise I get here is the next best thing.

Thanks

OUCH!....Right on, Tom....or is it "Buck" Cavanaugh?

Keep "pickin and grinnin",

Russ

I thought I would get a rise out of my good buddy Don but he chose not to bite. He knows me too well! Sometime when his guard is down I'll get him.

It's no secret that attractive women help sell ANYthing. Beer, cars, songs - whatever.....

so, if the sunger wears the right stuff and HAS the right stuff ..... well, the pitch is not so important I guess. ( to SOME )

Personally, I'd rather have an ugly singer that had great pipes than a bad singer with great ***s !

I have perfect pitch. Have had as long as I can remember. Transposers on keyboards really screw my brain up. Capoes on guitars are not a problem for me though, probably because guitar doesn't have black keys and white keys. Perfect pitch is how I learned jazz chords not knowing a speck of music theory. When I went to college I started learning the science (or math?) of the complex chords I had learned from listening. I too can tell you a phone number from the beeps.

Something along these lines that has perplexed me. Why are horns in such stupid keys? Why can't all horns be in C? I understand they call whichever key is easiest on a horn the C, but that's just weird. I play tenor sax and it just is dumb that a concert F is a tenor G. That would be a symphony writer's nightmare! Especially if he has perfect pitch!

This is actually what most people who are supposed to have perfect pitch do.
It helps if they are quick with singing intervals. (C-F instead of C-D-E-F)
It is probably learned from a very young age, of course without being aware of it. Some children will always sing in the same key - somewhere that fixed tone is remembered. From there it is always relative to that fixed tone.
People who are not musical in any way can have this.

BTW: I don't have "it".
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drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 09-14-2004).]

The reason is because it aids the reading of printed music. The different sizes of instruments produce different sounds within the audio spectrum, and the Tuba, Trombones etc would be playing notes so far below the staff that the leger lines would be too confusing to read. The same goes for Clarinets and flutes ...... too HIGH up on the staff.

The only reason for the different keys was for reading music. The strings even have clefs that many wind players never heard of.

Well, since I don't read printed music, I guess I never thought of that. That being said, couldn't C still be C? What key is a tuba in? isn't it in C? Even if it were in Bb, are you gaining that much having an instrument in Bb instead of C as far as reading music goes?

Hi Mosiqaar,

Good question. A few years back, I used an excellent 'ear training' software made especially for singers, called "Claire", which analyzes the pitch you sing (via micrphone into the computer) and helps develop your ability to hit requested note pitches (as well as short vocal phrases) 'right on'. I was amazed how it was able to catch pitch inaccuracies only a minute amount off pitch. This software is (was?) only availabe for the Mac platform. Here the only link I could find for it: http://www.auburn.edu/time/Claire

It would be great if there were a PC platform version of this (or similar) software out there. Anyone know?

Scott

With the brass instruments, it's more of a question of physics and the harmonic overtone series.

The basis overrtone series can be played on a bugle with no valves. It starts with a tonic note, then a fifth above that, then an octave, then a third, etc ..... much like teh drawbars on an organ. Drawbars duplicate the overtone series. (This must be printed somewhere.)

As it goes higher and higher, the notes become closer to chromatic than they are in the low registers. So, the overall tone and characteristic of a Bb tuba must have something to do about the way it handles the harmonic overtone series.

There is a limited number of C melody saxes floating around and they are HORRID. Some genious thought that it would be easier to read fake books, but the tonal change was too great. Just as with all things acoustical : SIZE MATTERS.
( only acoustical, now )

Tuba's BTW are in Bb.
It's all about tone color. There is a Bb and an A clarinet, just for those really hard keys. Serious orchestra players need them, but most casual players don't.

For many people, C is not the easiest to play in anyway. It certainly isn't the most comfortable fingering on a piano keybed, that's for sure. Brass players tend to prefer sharp keys, while wind players seem to handle the flat keys better. There are only 12 keys, so it can't be THAT hard to get cozy with more than just one, huh?
If you always play in the same key, you'll probably get carpal tunel (sp?)too.

A person with 'perfect pitch' doesn't have to first register C in their head. They just know the exact pitches of ALL 12 notes in the scale as well as the octave they fall in. In other words, if a person with perfect pitch were taken into a room with a piano (blind-folded), and you just play ONE note for them, they would be able to easily recognize & name the exact note you played. The method of registering C in your head first, and then mentally going up F is using 'relative pitch'.

My former voice coach, Judy Davis:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/01/31/MNL1260 03.DTL

had me purchase a 'pitch fork' tuned to concert A or C & carry it around and listen to as many times during the day. To this day, even though I don't have perfect pitch, I do have concert A & C pitch solidly in my head now, and can identify any other (12 semi-tone) notes of a scale by recognizing the interval relationships between C & other note(s) heard. This method of pitch recognition is referred to as: 'Relative Pitch' recognition, and important skill that ALL musicians need to develop. Tommy, whether you have perfect pitch or use relative pitch skills, pitch recognition is an essential skill that ALL musicians need to learn and to keep honed. - Scott. Here are the basic intervals that all musicians should be able to easily recognize (both ascending & decending):

Unison
Minor 2nd
Major 2nd
Minor 3rd
Major 3rd
Perfect 4th
Tritone (flatted fifth or augmented 4th)
Perfect 5th
Minor 6th
Major 6th
Minor 7th
Major 7th
Octave


To help with interval memorization, here's a link to songs that contain these intervals (first two notes of the melody):
http://www.people.vcu.edu/~bhammel/theory/resources/macgamut_theory/songs_interval_recognize.html

Have fun.


Scott

Thought I'd add my two cents worth in.

I believe there are VERY few people that have perfect pitch across all 12 notes and multiple octaves. Most people are stronger in certain ranges and pitches or even depending on what instrument is producing the pitch.

Typically it gets harder and harder, at least for me, the lower the pitches are. I have much more difficulty picking out pitches in low bass lines and they start to run together. In middle and upper registers there are many notes I can recognize immediately but some are more ellusive.

I also have difficulty when there is lots of distortion or effects on the notes. So some guitar lines I struggle to learn because my ear has more difficulty in isolating the pitch.

I personally believe everyone can improve their ear as long as there is not an actual physical defect. Just like most anything else some people have a natural talent (or perhaps an unnatural talent) and others have to work much harder for the same results.

Even though I don't have true perfect pitch I really messed myself up playing with my synth tuned down a half step for about 3 months. I was playing with a rock band whose singer benefited from the half step drop. I didn't even realize how messed up my ear had gotten until I picked up my guitar and everything just sounded so wrong. Never again will I play transposed for any length of time because it messes up your mind to play one chord and hear another. Eventually your brain just starts to accept those as the true chords.