This thread is for anyone wanting info on the Mediastation keyboards. Some of this info can be found in another thread started by Lionstracs announcing their new sound bank at this link. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/014383.html
I hope that by starting a new thread with this title we can make it easier for people to find it both now and later in the archives.

I am relying on all SynthZone members who have any info to contribute. So everyone please feel free to ask questions and add comments. I do not want this to be a one sided sales pitch for Loinstracs, but a complete source of information so that those considering purchasing can make an informed buying decision. We do not need users that are unhappy because they bought with unrealstic expectations, but knowledgeable informed users who have found a new tool with which to make music.

I am no expert on this subject as I have only recently (this year) began using computer based music. Therefore as I am only a newbie sharing what little I know; others with more experience with computers, softsynths and vst�s will need to add knowledge to make this exchange meaningful.

I thought that my experiences with the Mediastation may be of interest to someone so I will include some quotes from a couple of previous threads.

Here are some excerpts from the first Post I made about the MS in June :

"Ok here we go, I have had the Lionstracs Mediastation for several weeks. I got the X-88 Pro Version; as I needed 88 keys, hammer action, the works. Let me start by saying that the looks of this keyboard are very impressive, puts you in mind of a 747 cockpit panel. Lol. But while a little daunting at first , a quick look around reveals a well thought out and rather intuitive layout.

Located in the center of the keyboard directly above the keys are the transport controls for the two players. These players are currently able to play midi files, audio wave files, and mp3�s in 24 bit quality. Also you can crossfade between these players manually or automatically with one touch. But the most amazing feature of the Mediastation�s players are their ability to engage a powerful time stretching / pitch shifting engine and to, at the turn of a dial, speed up or slow down audio files without changing pitch and without degrading the sound quality. The opposite is also possible to change pitch without changing speed."


[This message has been edited by richard_shiflet (edited 11-10-2006).]

Let me describe the physical case. The build of this keyboard is extremely solid and very road worthy. I believe the housing is constructed of aluminum with nicely carved wooden end caps. The finish is silver in color and has a nice modern look. The labeling of all the controls is in large easy to read dark blue printing that contrasts very well and makes finding all the controls easy during live performance. The buttons are large and brightly lit dual color led silicon buttons. This is a big plus to me as I have tried keyboards with small gray buttons that simply blended into the background and were not appropriate at all for live performance.

To the left of the display are the arranger controls. No need for two button combinations when using the arranger because each style part has its own dedicated button: four intro�s, four fills, four endings, and four variations. It also has all of the usual functions that you would expect any good arranger to have plus a few extra that I have not even learned about yet. The Mediastation styles can read standard GM/GS midi files and incorporate audio wave files and giga samples. And there is no limit on the length or file size of these style elements and wave files.

The �User Keys Pads� are a nice touch. You have eight buttons to which you can assign the audio wave of your choice such as a vocal phrase or a special effect. These are available for instant play at anytime. I think Yamaha has something similar to this also.

The quality of the components in this keyboard seems very high. I was amazed to see how nice the sliders used for mixing volumes were. As anyone who has done audio engineer type work, mixing sound on a professional sound desk, knows that the larger the faders are the easier it is to mix sound on and when they have a good smooth feel it makes using them a lot more enjoyable. Well you won�t be disappointed with these faders! They have a high quality smooth action with just the right amount of resistance for accuracy. And they are very large over 3 inches from top to bottom; my Gem SK880 sliders measure only about 1 and � inches long. My X-88 Pro has ten of these faders used for keyboard sounds and outputs as well as two more dedicated to XLR microphone inputs each with its own gain, mute, eq and effects control. Thank you Lionstracs I may even leave my Allen & Heath mixer at home. Lol. There is also one more fader beside the data entry wheel this fader operates different parameters based on the keyboard mode or the current contents of the screen.

Many of you may be used to using registrations. They are called Performances on the Mediastation and are really easy to use. You just press �Performance�, then �New�, an on screen keyboard comes up and you can use it or any attached keyboard (ps2 / usb) to type the name and enter. You can also group them in categories with any name you desire. The performance takes a complete �snapshot� of all the mediastations settings at that moment. Including all sound patch settings / splits, styles, even mp3 or wave files loaded in the player. They can then be recalled by the performance name, the group or the ID number; for easy organization. I think the maximum number of registrations is 999,999,999.

Here is a quote from a post I made a few weeks later about an upgrade to my Mediastation. The upgrade itself is not really relevant anymore as this chip will not be used after the next LS 4.0 upgrade is downloaded, but I felt that this account speaks to Lionstracs support and service after the sale:

"Mediastation Keyboard Upgraded

After owning the Lionstracs MS X-88 Pro Mediastation Keyboard for only a very short while, I am happy to report that I have already received an upgrade to the internal sounds. It came in the form of a 64 meg flash DIMM chip with a complete sound set already burned in.

There are some great sounds included in this set. Domenik sent me a video showing how to properly access the interior of the mediastation, outlining which screws to remove and how to open the case.

Once inside it took only a few seconds to swap the chips. During the process I must have inadvertently pulled one of the ribbon connectors loose from the motherboard. Since I had no idea where it was supposed to be plugged I took a look at the Hardware Manual he had sent me and found the connector clearly labeled. I reconnected the cable, closed the case, and replaced the screws. That was all there was to it!

Domenik even included two brackets specially designed to hold the panel of the Mediastation open. Kudos to Domenik for making what could have been a daunting task very simple and painless!

I know I must sound like a Lionstracs advertisement, but we are quick to complain when a keyboard manufacturer gives us anything less than perfect service. I just thought that excellence should be noticed as well. When is the last time anyone has seen this kind of �service�?

And the cost of this upgrade? It was free! I was not even asked to pay the shipping costs."


[This message has been edited by richard_shiflet (edited 11-10-2006).]

Here are some excerpts from the post "New GM/GS Soundbank" http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/014383.html
That is mentioned at the top of this page:

Mediastation Weaknesses:

Now before you guys begin to think that I am either on the Lionstracs payroll, I wish, or just some idiot who thinks his keyboard is perfect and has no faults; let me tell you what in my opinion are the weaknesses of the Mediastation. First and foremost it is the styles. If you think that a brand new company like Lionstracs is going to start out with a library of styles that surpass companies that have been extensively developing styles for 20+ years; like Yamaha, Korg, and Roland; then you do not have very realistic expectations. As for as the question, �did Domenik ever get someone to develop styles for him?� The answer is yes. When I first purchased my Mediastation, about 6 months ago it already had a small number of styles included. I decided that I would rather base my purchase on the quality and the features of the hardware installed and the open ended upgrade path that would provide me with the most current abilities well into the future than purely on the number of styles available. I was rewarded with in a few short weeks with the first organized library of 270 styles that I was able to download from the Lionstracs site.

Domenik does have people that he pays to develop styles but he has stopped adding styles to the current library as he is now designing the next phase of Mediastation development and it will be another first for arranger keyboards! Are you ready this? The first ever software driven arranger, incorporating audio and midi and���

Based solely on Giga sounds and Virtual Instruments (VSTi�s). If you know the quality of VSTi�s and Giga sounds then you realize how big a leap forward in technology and sound quality this will be! Not only incorporating the occasional Giga sound into a style, but also building the styles from the ground up using all Giga sounds for all style accompaniment parts and then throw in the VSTi�s for good measure. So all mediastation owners will also receive Gigs upon Gigs of fantastic sounds!

This new all Giga and VSTi Style Library is based on the technology of LS 4.0 a new version of Linux Sampler that Domenik is helping the open source community by funding. It is slated for release in the first part of December, so I do not anticipate the G.V.S. Library until early next year.

Another weakness as I mentioned in the other post is the fact that there are not that many active users yet. So you will not find the large user groups and dedicated resource web sites that the larger older companies enjoy. However you will find a much more forward thinking company that is willing to take risks with innovative products that the others will not try.

And when it comes to customer service, larger is not necessarily better. The smaller, more personable atmosphere I enjoy with Lionstracs has provided customer service far beyond the norm. I can speak with the C.E.O. and Hardware engineer of lionstracs through Yahoo Instant Messenger almost anytime. Has anyone else ever had that level of access to another keyboard manufacturer?

However I do see the definite advantage of the large user groups that Korg, Yamaha, Roland enjoy and I look forward to the day when even more of my SZ friends are also Mediastation users.

I have forgotten to describe the actual feel of the Keybed. My Mediastation is the MS X-88 Pro, which is the 88 key version. The keys have the full weighted, hammer action feel. The keybed is from Fatar and it plays superbly. It has good dynamics and is very responsive and when used with the included Giga Piano It definitely feels like playing a real piano!

As far as the X-76 keybed some one else will have to step in there as I have not used it and therefore cannot comment

Should get my 76 this week so will post my initial thoughts then...
Mark

Jonesboy....I would interested in hearing your experiences with navigation & integrating & switching different modes while playing in real time between Styles/Sounds, SMF, Mp3......lyrics.

So would I ??!!!
I'll certainly let you know how I get on...

The navigation of the Mediastation is quite simple and not unlike any other arranger. There are dedicated control buttons for the GM/GS sounds, Organ Sounds, Linux Sampler, MS Synth, Styles, MP3/Audio player, Performance setups, and more. You can also select sounds, styles, and do edits by touching the TFT touch screen. Changing sounds and styles on the fly isn't an issue no matter what sound source you are using i.e. GIGA, GM/GS, MS Synth, or Audio files.

In addition to the dedicated buttons and TFT screen, there are numerous sliders to control envelopes, volumes, organ drawbars, etc. The sliders and corresponding buttons are programmable as well.

The dual MP3/Audio players are a fantastic feature. The real time pitch shift and timestretch allows you to import audio, set the tempo and pitch, and change it on the fly if needed. Imagine having background vocals playing directly from the audio player in perfect sync with your styles and sequences. Need to do a key change but have your recorded background vocals match the key change? No problem, pitch shift it without changing tempo!

With each software update I've seen the Mediastation improve dramatically. Its still not as simple to operate as the Wersi but given the fact Wersi has had a 6+ year jump on everyone else making Open Ended arrangers, that's to be expected. The Mediastation offers an alternative to the Wersi at a much lower price. Current arrangers by Yamaha, Korg, Roland, GEM, Ketron, and others simply aren't in the same league as these two arranger/workstations.

As I've said in previous posts... the Mediastation can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. I suspect most people who buy a Mediastation will never scratch the surface of what it can do.

Dnj
before i made ome small video demo how the MS booting and how i start play sounds, Mp3, styles, Vst.. http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/video/2006/msbooting.wmv

About the keys feel:
We use the Fatar Top 76keys with Piano feel and aftertouch,TP8/SK, the best 76 keys that fatar produce. I think the PA-X pro use the same too.

About the styles:
maybe you there still don't have understand the MS arranger concept. We use the standard Midifile pattern, like Intro1.mid, Intro2.mid, Var3_min.mid...
This files are standard Export to sequencer mode from EMC style conveter and we can read it in realtime.
Of course you can develope your own styles really easy, because you need a standard PC sequencer connect to one GM module and programmin the all tracks that you like ( up to 16)
IF you use the MS like a sound GM enerator and you save in the midifiles the right program change, bank, Vol... automatically the MS arranger will play it in our sounds palette.

We can also import any brand styles, edited by EMC style converter but of course the style will not sounds the same, because dont give the original sounds palette.
This is the sounds difference from any keyboards, you can copy the same Note line midifile BUT of course played in another sound module will be different.

We have in our page one zip file where you can find some example and seq templates for develope styles.
Do NOT need to have one mediastation keyboard, but just one GM sound module, then with the MS sound editor we can remap all in realtime.

For GIGA styles, we use the PC Gigastudio, in each desidered track we load one GIG Instruments file from our new GIGA soundbank. Then with the sequencer you start to write the Note line tracks connected to the gigastudio midi IN.
When in your PC sequencer the style work how you like, you will export the all midifiles to the mediastation and with the arranger editor we link again in realtime the GIGA instruments used for each tracks.
We can edit again the: Volume, Reverb send, Chorus, Panpot.. untill the all GIG instruments are nice sounds levelled how you like.
Each styles can have UP to 12 sounds presets that you can recall in realtime.

If you dont like use the GIGA, i suggest you to use the Roland Hypercanvas VST and programming the styles there.
the Mediastation wil then reproduce it SAME how you have recorder in the Sequencer.

IF this is not a open system, then let me know what we have to change for developing styles more easy.

Domenik,

It's good to know that you have used a top quality "Fatar" keybed for the X-76. It looks like you have gone "First Class" on all mediastation models. I also think that providing the "Style Making" package was a good idea, thanks.

Mark,

I can't wait to hear your first impressions of your Mediastation!

Richard

[This message has been edited by richard_shiflet (edited 11-11-2006).]

Actually if you open up any European keyboard, you will find that in 99% of cases it will be a Fatar keybed that is used; also you don�t get many complaints about the key feel of most European keyboards.

Bill

As soon as I get it - I'll post initial thoughts. Hopefully get it this week - fingers crossed!
Mark

Ciao Mark
Your MS is already shipped today at 10.25AM
be patience some days more... http://www.lionstracs.com/guest/mark/mark4.JPG http://www.lionstracs.com/guest/mark/mark5.JPG http://www.lionstracs.com/guest/mark/2xMS.JPG

The other MS-88 Pro, the big box, is for another USA client, your MS is in the Gator case carton.
cheers

Congratulations, Mark! A couple more days and you'll be proud owner of a Mediastation. We'll all be awaiting your upcoming reviews.

Domenik, thanks for the pics, especially the first one. The Mediastation looks stunning.

Taike

Wow Mark, that must be exciting for you; a photo of your keyboard just before it goes to shipping. How many manufacturers would do that?

Congratulations on your new keyboard...we want a full report, so get your word processor ready.

Regards,
Al

------------------
Al Giordano
www.al-giordano.com

Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums

Have to say the service from these guys has been superb - and yep, really looking forward to getting my hands on the MS - Report will follow...
Mark

Congratulations Mark, at least you won't have to wait as long as I did.

I started pestering Domenik about an 88 key version of his Mediastation Pro keyboard a couple of months before he even designed it. Guess that is why I got the prototype. LOL

He sent me a picture of mine before it shipped as well. I am certain no other manufacturer will give this kind of attention.

Richard

Congratulations Mark,

Welcome to aboard of mediastation users.

I hope you will find in MS so many interesting things as me.

Best regards.

Zmago Ojstersek

Some kind of price point would help clarify the cost/benefit ratio of these instruments.

Just like Wersi, while these instruments are very technically advanced, are they still at the price point that puts them basically out of reach for the average working (or average retired!) musician?

Hell. I thought my G70 was far more than I wanted to pay!

Well when I had a look at a European website's prices, they were (from memory) between 1,600 Euros and 3,500 Euros - which I think means around High 2000's (Aust Dollars) to 6-7,000...

Which is around, what, $1,500 - $5,000 US.

These are my own dodgy calculations, but even if I'm a little off - it STILL seems comparable to (and downright cheaper than) the G-70 - depending on the model you get of course!

Btw Domenik - if you're still reading - I ordered online my Demo CD of the Mediastation from the Lionstracs website - apparently this is a free instant dowload, but I've recieved no email confirmation, or download link (that I can see) or anything - what's going on???

Just remember to factor in the cost of the VSTs you want - several hundred each, to several thousand dollars, depending on which.......

Well that sucks.

I thought it was an open system?

Can I not import any sound I want - or am I mis-understanding things here?

You can import most anything, but the good VSTi's cost bucks.... I don't see the point in buying an expensive arranger, and then loading it with cheap, crappy freeware VSTi's.

Once you order the free download all you do is log in and choose to "view orders" you will then see a link to the download - the demo is about 600mb, the download is ready almost immediately from when you order it,
Regards
Mark

Thanks!

I wish it was made a little more obvious on the site (for dopes like myself).

The download link has expired already (2 days only) and I've now ordered it again.

Still "pending" after 1/2 an hour - certainly not "nearly" instant download (guess I'm just anxious to see it!!! - No patience!)

*Taps foot impatiently*

The Wersi and Lionstracs differ in that the Wersi comes standard with an enormous amount of high quality sounds as stock. In addition Wersi OAS 7 has several types of synthesis available (FM, Wavetable, Modeling) in addition to VST support, AKAI sample support, GM/GS sounds, and sampling. Both Wersi and Lionstracs support VST's so the user can load any particular VST they need into either system. Most VST's aren't free (some are quite expensive but well worth it), but they aren't required in order for the system to make sound. VST's simply expand your sound palette.

Lionstracs has recently added more stock sounds to the Mediastation and is also offering a new bundle of free GIGA sounds for the Mediastation owner. Its a great start but I'd like to see a sound library included that's comparable to Wersi's. The Mediastation has numerous sound sources such as sampling, synthesis, GM/GS sounds, and of course VST support. The Lionstracs supports far more VST's at one time than the Wersi.

The basic Wersi Abacus (about $7,500.00 USD) is far more expensive than the Standard Lionstracs Mediastation X-76 (about $3,500.00 USD). Of course Wersi and Lionstracs make more expensive versions (Abacus Duo Pro fully loaded is about $16,000.00 USD), Lionstracs X-88 Pro (around $6,900.00 USD). Wersi also offers the Ikarus, a lesser priced instrument but by no means cheap (around $5,500.00 USD). Which model is right for you depends on your requirements (61, 76, or 88 keys), what options you may need (expanded digital I/O, pedal board, RAM, etc.), and your budget.

Both the Wersi and Lionstracs offer the user possibilities that embedded type arranger/workstation just can't. Take this into consideration when considering the price of an open ended workstation.

Why is it that people believe the Lionstracs and Wersi require you to spend additional money on VST's to use them? The Wersi for example has more and better sounds that come stock than any arranger I know of. The fact it can play VST's is merely a bonus. VST's aren't required, they simply expand the sound palette.

Lionstracs stock sounds are quite good and you even get some free GIGA sounds as well. The new 4300 GIGA sound bank is one example. I'm sure Lionstracs will offer other free sounds in the future which will only enhance the product. When was the last time Yamaha, Roland, or Korg gave the user a free 4GB sound library? For that matter what keyboard does Yamaha, Roland, or Korg make than can play back 4GB worth of sounds? Even the Korg Oasys can't play a file larger than 2 GB.

Yamaha, Roland, and all the rest of the big players have had decades to develop sounds for their keyboards. One of the advantages of this (particularly as they started sound development WAY before RAM was plentiful) is a huge library of well developed sounds that don't take up huge amounts of memory. 4GB of sounds sounds like a hell of a lot, until you realize that maybe a GB of it is just for a piano sound, and so on....

The amount of RAM a sound takes up will help a sound get more realistic, no doubt about that, but especially for live use (that's what an arranger is all about, after all) it's all about the QUANTITY of good enough sounds, not how stellar a few can be.

Yamaha and Roland probably put more money into just sound development than Lionstracs or Wersi's entire R&D budget. The results are instruments, particularly at the top end of the line, that for live use are close to perfect, deep, rich pianos, expressive saxes and drumkits that POP!

Could they be a bit better....? Of course.
Is the difference worth the hassle...? If you like tweaking (not a lot of tweak-heads playing arrangers).
Is the difference worth the extra money they cost....? That's what the market is deciding.

Once again, don't get me wrong.... I think these things are the future. I am just not brave or rich enough to make them my present (Xmas or otherwise!).

An arranger lives and dies by it's styles. The sounds are just lagniappe. Witness how many bemoan the Technics line, who's sounds aren't up to contemporary comparison (mostly!) but are missed by all who used them for the styles, mostly...

Roland's sounds, in many categories, are not as good as Yamaha's. But the styles more than make up for it (if you like the Roland 'approach'). The T2 would sell much poorer if the styles weren't as good, despite how good the sounds are....

Anyone building an arranger, rather than a workstation, had better put kick-a$$ styles as priority number one..... No amount of Giga-quality sounds will make it sell if the styles don't inspire, and in large numbers....

Imagine how poorly the T2 would sell if it came with few good styles, and you were expected to develop or translate them yourself. At that point, you probably wouldn't care how good the sax sound was!

Hi Dikki
You have just made the case for a Wersi OAS instrument with the new Open Art Arranger software.

Bill

And as a humourous aside.....

...my first Download stopped at 57%

I'm now having to download AGAIN.....(!)


Wish me luck!

I've got the demo downlaod - if you are in the UK send me an email and I can send it on to you if you are having problems downloading - sure Domenik wouldn't mind - Mark
markjones01@sky.com

Cheers mate - I'll see how I go.

Is this CD just a compilation of all the video/sound demos found on the site???

Or, for the same money, I can buy a G70 AND a Tyros2..... (and a car!)

For me, the whole point of new technology is to do the same job (or better!) AT THE SAME PRICE (or lower!). I'm trying to make a living, here......

I already have a home system with a Mac and VSTi's that can do all the fancy stuff... Ivory, BFD, B4 etc., etc.. I use them, and my tricked out K2500 extensively for pre-production work and studio stuff. I just don't feel the need for a $10k keyboard to do the same stuff at the gig.

We're talking seriously diminishing returns, here.... Truth is, if you can't do it on a Tyros2, you probably can't do it, no matter what arranger you get.... The player is still 95% of the equation.

Diki,

I would agree with you that it would not make sense to have an expensive high-end arranger playing cheap sounds that do not sound good. I also agree that buying high quality VST's can cost hundreds and even thousands.

However, since the X-88 & X-76 Pro both come already loaded with the Native Instruments B4 Organ Simulation and the Bosendorfer 290 Giga Piano and my favorite, the Steinway B Giga piano, which by itself is almost 2 Gb in size, I would have to question the assumption that one "has" to load more vst's for a quality sound.

All of the sounds I just mentioned are among the better quality sounds that are available and now with the addition of the 4Gb gm/gs giga library, one could easily make the case that this may be all you would ever need. One could certainly make the case that this is more than any other arranger keyboard can offer, with the exception of maybe the Wersi. I say, "maybe" because I do not know if the wersi can load large Giga files. I know it can use Akai samples, which are quite different.

I can safely say that I do not "need" additional sounds, as the sample set included is very extensive. But I can also say that if I "want" additional sounds that none are beyond my reach with the Mediastation.

"Yamaha, Roland and all the rest of the big players have had decades to develop sounds for their keyboards", yet Lionstracs has used the better technology that is available to create a keyboard that plays higher quality sounds in only a few short years. You are right, however when you say that these established companies began sound development before ram was plentiful and they have done an excellent job, considering what they had to work with. I am very glad that we don�t have to just �make do� anymore as the technology is now available to do better.

Look at FM synthesis. There was a day when it dominated the market. Remember the Yamaha DX7? It was the new technology of the future, and for a while it shaped the industry. But that doesn�t mean that we should not have developed new technologies. Was it not to our benefit that there were people who could see past the present and develop a better future? I am not interested in seeing how many sounds some �well established� company can get into an itsy, bitsy chip of rom and then overcharge me for 10 year old �warmed over� technology. It is an insult! If it were the best they could do that would be different, but I am convinced that all of the big companies could develop the same type of technology as Lionstracs yet they do not! It is not as profitable as releasing a new keyboard every 3 years and including only a small amount of improvements and staying with a proprietary system that is not open. Making their money year after year from the same people upgrading to a new keyboard.

�The amount of RAM a sound takes up will help a sound get more realistic, no doubt about that.� We are in agreement on this point, but on the next, �but especially for live use (that�s what an arranger is all about, after all) it�s all about the QUANTITY of good enough sounds, not how stellar a few can be�, I would have to disagree. Those who are more experienced arranger players may actually use every one of the hundreds of sounds included on their keyboard. I however find that difficult to do as I lean toward certain favorites. This is true with every keyboard I have owned. Even with styles I find that many of the
hundreds that are on my past arrangers I don�t care for and will never use. A much smaller number ends up being my palate. So instead of the quantity of �good enough� sounds I prefer a smaller number of �stellar �sounds.

But with the Mediastation we can have both quantity and quality. Did anyone notice the info in Domeniks first sentence under the post entitled � New GM/GS Soundbank 4300 Mb�? It stated that they were, �1317 GIG Instruments, Drumkits, drumparts, loops and much more.� Sounds like quantity as well. By the way that 4 Gb sound library does not include the very large Giga pianos as they would be about 4 Gb by themselves .

Is it worth the hassle�.? It is for me, but everyone must make up their own mind. We are fortunate to live in a day where there are no �bad arrangers,� only really good ones and even better ones and I certainly respect your choices.

Richard

Diki,

Out of curiosity have you played a Wersi OAS instrument in person? I suspect not. Wersi's sounds in OAS 6 and OAS 7 are far superior to Yamaha, Roland, and Korg from what I've heard first hand. I own a Wersi Abacus Duo Pro, Lionstracs Mediastation, Korg Oasys, and numerous other keyboards and samplers so I can judge them side by side not from some online MP3 demos.

Sure Yamaha, Korg, and Roland have a few nice sounds here and there but the Wersi's sounds are almost all really, really good. I'm not talking about VST's used in the Wersi either, merely the Wersi stock sound library. Once you factor in the VST support and additional sounds then the Wersi is in a league by itself. Only the Lionstracs and Korg Oasys can even come close.

Yamaha and Roland may have had decades to develop sounds but using sounds that have short sample size along with low sample rates does not yield the best sound. If that were true there would be no need for streaming file VST's like GigaStudio or Kontakt. What the compressed bit rate technology does do is allow the manufacturer to have more sounds in a small amount of ROM which isn't necessarily better. Yamaha is very smart in how they sell their keyboards, they make a few really good sounds, use those as the "smoke and mirrors", then occupy the rest of the sound ROM with mediocre sounds. That approach works for Yamaha but Wersi doesn't stoop to that level. Doing so would make it nearly impossible for Wersi to sell an instrument like the Louvre that costs upwards of $70,000.00 or an Abacus that costs around $7,500.00. Think if Bentley, Ferrari, or Lamborghini did that with their cars, I'm sure few would sell and you'd have some really pissed off customers.

The unfortunate reality is not everyone can afford these instruments that represent the pinnacle of what is available today. That is why manufacturers like Yamaha mass market lesser cost instruments. This is after all a business and the niche of high end instruments is quite small and little competition exists. Korg is trying to see if the high end market will work with the Oasys but so far the Oasys sales aren't spectacular. Is that because its a bad instrument or that it doesn't sound great? Nope! It's just so expensive most people can't afford it. In time the Oasys's that do sell will help cover R&D costs for lower end instruments that will share some of the same Oasys technology. Rest assured Yamaha, Roland, and others will follow the lead of Wersi, Lionstracs, and Korgs Oasys and come out with open ended instruments. In time prices will drop and these types of keyboards will be cheaper but there will always be new technology that will supersede it and cost more.

In regard to "an arranger lives or dies by its styles".... I agree and disagree. If you are mass marketing a cheaper instrument aimed at the low to mid range end user who is most likely going to know little about how to develop or edit their own styles, that may apply. For someone like myself who rarely uses canned styles and is willing to edit and make my own styles, sounds, etc., I prefer a system that allows me nearly infinite possibilities. I know that many people feel the Tyros is a professional instrument but in my opinion it is far from it. Sure I could use it to play a gig but for production and recording work like I do, I'd be ridiculed if I tried to use a Tyros and its weak sounds. The Tyros 1 and 2 to me didn't rival my 9000 Pro that was fully loaded. Even with all the sound options in the 9000 Pro it wasn't in the same league as the Wersi, Lionstracs, or Oasys.

Ensnareyou and Abacus
I know that you there have the Wesi keyb with the OAS6 and OAS7..

I like know only some technical stuff, just to know how the OAS is working, because I can't find online this info.
1) OAS6: how many VST you can run in realtime? I mean how many you can open and use?
2) OAS7: I know that give some new features and they are able now to open UP to 4 VST, it this true OR you are bale to open more than 4 VST at time?

3) Sounds samples: are you able to play GIGA Instruments or only AKAI sounds?

4) GIGA: IF you are able to play giga sounds, mean that you are able to open the VST Gigastudio or the new GVI ( Giga-Virtual-Instruments) ? I have Gigastudio here too, but is working only with GIS windows driver and not with ASIO, it mean a lot of audio card limitation, stil Fireware cards seem not working well under Gigastudiom a LT of latency, sometime more than 1.5 seconds.

5) If you are able to open Gigastudion, how you can browser the sounds? in the OAS you have a special UI for the soundpatch ( like we have on MS) or you have touch the display and select one new sounds under gigastudio?
Working in gigastudio UI without the Mouse, is really hard, because the all incons, field, controllers are so small and touch it with the finger is almost impossible.

I will not criticise and advertising nothing from my MS and others brands, I just like know some technical info how the others can manage the VST plugins.

We make realy a BIG work for the KORE Linux VST, but now we can manage unlimited VST plugins and still use the MS patch selector, like a normally sounds, without use the mouse or finger.

More info I can have, more better we can edit in better our system too.

Hello Lionstracs
All OAS instruments as from November 2005 came as standard with OAS 7.
OAS 6 was introduced in early 2004.
I have included a link below where you can download a free magazine which shows the history of the OAS system, it also contains details of OAS 7. (Please remember the magazine is about 12 -18 months old and further updates to OAS 7 have become available)
In addition I have included a link where there are some screenshots of OAS 7.
OAS instruments up to OAS 6 used Cubase as the VST Host, where as OAS 7 has an integrated VST Host.
The sound system uses custom (All connections are internal) Creamware Pulsar/Pulsar 2 DSPs, which have 32 bit processing.
Due to being busy at present, I have not yet had the time to upgrade to OAS 7, but I will try and put together some more details of the differences between 6 & 7 when I get back from work.
Hope this helps

Bill
http://www.worldofoas.co.uk/sample.htm
http://www.yourhobby.nl/forumorgel/viewtopic.php?t=1195

Update
The magazine site seems to be down at the moment so I have uploaded a copy to Rapidshare.
http://rapidshare.com/files/3447870/World_of_OAS_1.pdf.html

Thanks abacus for the info.
I saw the link with the OAS7 Interface.
The picture 14th, seem probe that OAS7 still can drive only 4 VST .

In this link you can see that the MS is able to open much more: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/msos-update-pi-139.html http://www.lionstracs.com/data/gui/vst.png


Strange that Wersi wil use the Cubase for hosting the VST and not another open host that will be able to open much more VST at time. Maybe if they will change, they have to rewrire a lot of code of the Midiserver, that allow the OAS to swtich in realtime the Audio+Midi VST connections trough Host and keyboard.

We use Jack connection and this toll make all automatically under a script code.
For sure they will upgrade this features too.
Thanks again

The Mediastation does support far more VST's at once than the Wersi but the major advantages the Wersi has out of the box are the great factory sounds and more intuitive user interface. The Wersi comes standard with over 700 fantastic sounds ranging from Piano, Organ, Strings, Guitars, Flutes, Brass, Drums, and much more. In fact, if one purchases the additional Wersi OAS Piano, Organ, and Synthesizer sound banks the number of stock sounds increases to over 1300 sounds (this does not include any VST sounds). The Wersi factory sounds are high quality multisampled, multilayered sounds with incredible detail that only GIGA or Kontakt files can compete with. Then take into fact the Wersi does support four VST's as well as analog modeling, FM, and wavetable synthesis and you can get an understanding of what a powerhouse this keyboard truly is.

Don't get me wrong... The Mediastation is a great instrument and I'm by no means knocking it. Wersi has just devised a much simpler interface and has more and better factory sounds than any arranger/workstation I've heard to date. Even the Korg Oasys doesn't have acoustic sounds that match the Wersi. Only the Oasys synth sounds are better which is what makes the Oasys unique, its synth and KARMA capabilities. The Oasys seriously lacks in the sequencer, audio recorder, and it does not currently support any VST's.

Over the last year I've seen the Mediastation improve dramatically with each OS update and the newest 1.2 ISO makes the Mediastation so much easier to use but it can still be better. Lionstracs is definitely moving in the right direction by adding new GIGA sounds and improving the GUI. I'm sure you know this already but look and listen to what the competition has to offer and strive to exceed what they do. Sometimes less is more and the phrase "keep it simple stupid" definitely applies.

Lionstracs already has the most open ended platform of any software based keyboard available today. All you need to do now is fine tune it, add some more sounds, and then watch out World! If Lionstracs gets it done fast enough you'll have such a major jump on Roland, Yamaha, and others who will certainly be coming out with an open ended keyboard soon they'll never catch up. That's what Wersi has done by having OAS out almost 7 years ago!

Question: with all these VST, software programs & such that are included......what about the licencing & registration for these programs....does the buyer have do it or is it included by Liontracks?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-15-2006).]

Hello Lionstracs
The number of VSTs that could be loaded into the Cubase version supplied by Wersi, was 4.
Owners who required more usually purchased Steinbergs VSTACK which allowed up to 16 VSTs to be used.
The main problem with using VSTs is that (Depending on the type) they use up CPU power and Ram, and if you use too many at the same time you get note dropout or system stutters. (Those that are familiar with VSTs will understand this and will set up a balanced system accordingly)
With OAS 7 the host was integrated but the number of plug-ins remained the same, this was done deliberately by Wersi, as the players buying a Wersi would most likely be coming from hardware based arrangers/organs and so would most likely not be familiar with the above concept, therefore by limiting the number of VSTs that could be used simultaneously, it reduced the chance of players running into problems. (When Dual core CPUs drop in price and are fitted as standard, Wersi will increase the number of slots to suit)
You can load a large number of VSTs into a Wersi and then just select the ones you require for your performance. (I believe with OAS 7 they can also be stored in presets, so that you do not have to set them up individually)
A lot of OAS 7 details you will find in the links I sent you, and also by reading Ensnareyou�s postings. (I believe he actually uses OAS 7, whereas I am still running on OAS 6)
To sum up
The Wersi OAS system is designed to make it as easy as possible for the uses of hardware based boards to make the transition to a software based board.
Hope this helps and if you require any more specific information, just post again and I will try to help. (It would also probably be better to start another thread, as we are starting to get a bit OT)

Bill

Thanks Bill for the info.
The Wersi guys are my friends too, then don' worry that i'm here to talk bad about they products.
Is only that I dont have one Wersi here to compare and I'm really interesting on technical stuff how the others ( like Openlabs too) can setup and make working the windows XP with all this hardware added.

I tough that unser XP was all so easy to setup and the possibility to load the all software/features, but seem that this is not so easy too.

I agree with you, maybe is better open a new thread for this because I still waiting to understand if Wersi can straming sounds and how will handle the interface.
Loading Akai samples I have understand, but this mean tht you are limited from the Ram, streaming mean that you are allowed to BIG GIG files.
Untill you can open some VST, like kontackt or Gigastudio, then how you control the all sounds? by the Vst interface?

Perhaps, if Wersi were better represented in the US, it might be easier to get a grip on how useful one of these might be. Abacus, your keyboard lists in the US for $17,000, there is virtually no online information in English, few demos, and a web presence that is scary given how expensive they are.

Perhaps if they would just take the time to present themselves more professionally, I could take them more seriously. Wersi can't even be bothered to translate their own website fully to English. They may very well be the Bugattis of arrangers, but if I can't see one, touch one, play one, read about one, hear one or try one, what's the point?

Once again, I state my case..... An arranger's primary use is to be played LIVE....

OF COURSE a 2GB piano sounds better than a ROMpler one, BUT.... for live use, some of the ROMplers are more than adequate, my G70s piano is quite a joy to play. Is it as good as Ivory? Of course not. But in a mix, at a live show, it isn't $15k worse.... That's what I'm talking about when I say diminishing returns.

Yes, I already use VSTi's for studio work, but it's an expensive pill to swallow to be able to take it to the gig, especially as we all know that within a few years, ALL keyboards will be like OAS and Mediastation, and early adopters ALWAYS pay a hefty price premium. Remember when plasma TVs first came out. How would you like to have bought one of those at $10k, to see a better one at $1.5k a couple of years later?

Let's be honest, here. If all you want is a GIGA sized piano and B4, you can run B4 and Ivory on a laptop reliably for about $2500 and address it from your arranger. Use the remaining $10k plus for a car...... or the ashtray from a Bugatti!

Dikki
I agree totally with you!
Fortunatly the Mediastation Standard 32bit cost only 2600 Euro and you can play the Giga and Vst too, about half price than one T2....
Maybe will cost less buy one complete MS standard that one laptop, display, audio card, midi-keyboard and all the missing auiod-midi tools that you maybe can not configure for live gig's.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[B]Question: with all these VST, software programs & such that are included......what about the licencing & registration for these programs....does the buyer have do it or is it included by Liontracks?

Does anyone know ?

Dnj
All the Linux OS instaled in the MS is under GPL license, it mean Free.
All the GIGA sounds that we included in the Sounbank are totally developed from my sound enginers and Lionstracs Propiety.

B4 license is installed only in the Pro Models, where we have already buy before a package with different number license to use.
The two big GIG piano we have buy the one time license too and we can install when we like.
All the remain VST installed are FREE to use.
IF you like have Kontak2, Gigastudio, Roland Hypercanvas..... you have to buy the original and install it.

I dont think that with the good price of the Mediastation we MUST install 5/10K of software just for make some one happy...

If you like the Ferrari, you have to buy it, you cant find it for some Cents..

OK Thanx Domenico I understand now ......the Mediastation gets more exciting every day !!!!!!

Ciao

Hi Dikki
The conversion from UK Pounds for the Abacus is $10,200
The Ikarus is $8200

Bill

Hello All
I have started a new thread for the Wersi OAS Instruments, as where going a bit OT at the moment.

Bill
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/014461.html

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 11-15-2006).]

I must say I really admire your product! I wish I could afford one It sounds amazing.

I have a little technical question. I downloaded the demo cd, and I watched the videos where the guy takes the thing apart. From what I can see it's basically a PC with a touch screen LCD and 3 big custom boards. What I'm wondering is, does the keyboard (the Fatar keys) require any special interface to connect to the computer inside? or can it be hooked up to any motherboard with a standard connection? (serial, paralell, usb, etc..)? I was thinking of maybe modding a computer case and fit it with a small 49 key keyboard and use that as my DAW.

Doc-Z

Well MS is here - early thoughts? WOW!!!! This is seriously great kit...Sounds are excellent, build quality - very very good and early impressions are very good indeed....styles ok - The usability doesn't seem as hard as I first thought it would be - and as for Lionstracs service - it continues to amaze, Dominek was on to me straight away to make sure I had received it ok and to see if I needed any help - superb service.
I will post a fuller review and my own opinions in due course but for now - it is money well worth spending,
Mark

Hello Lionstracs
I have posted more info on the Wersi OAS instruments in the new thread I have created; (See previous post) it also includes some pictures and demo of the New Open Art Arranger Software that is due out next month.
Enjoy

Bill

Because here is Lionstracs Mediastation Review I can remark that good things of styles in Mediastation are:

WAV in STYLE:

If I copy part of drum loop inside in styles. I use this loop at 120 bmp. Than I only change tempo to 140 bmp and drum loop is playing 140 bmp - faster. I can also use same loop for 80 bmp. Exactly I can do what I want. Same thing is with other complete part of song. You can play it as arranger. A lot of presentations are made there about this part.

STEINBERG VIRTUAL GUITARIST
I try few minutes ago STEINBERG VIRTUAL GUITARIST in style of LIONSTRACS MS. I can tell you that this is now working well. Please you can try.

I hope STEINBERG will not be angry on me. Because someone gave me wrong information that VIRTUAL GUITARIST is not working in LINUX.

Abacus..... ensnareyou said he had a Abacus Duo pro, fully loaded.... On Wersi's US site, they quote $19,900 for this, so maybe $16K+ with a discount?

So a T2 and a car doesn't seem that outrageous as a shopping comparison.....

A few organ manufacturers left over from the old days still haven't decided to join the 21st century, and are willing to build boutique organs at the inflated prices these things used to go for before modern keyboards decimated their sales. Back in the heyday of Hammonds, and Lowries and Wurlitzers, buyers knew, if they wanted a quality instrument, they would have to pony up $10k+ and break their backs trying to move it. But times and technology have changed.

Only a few holdouts remain with the business model of 40 years ago. Perhaps they can get a few buyers to invest capital amounts of money for something that is only incrementally better than other instruments an order of magnitude cheaper. Perhaps not.

The generation that is retiring now grew up on keyboards and synths from the seventies and eighties, with top prices being in the $3-4k range, not the$10-20k monsters their parents bought. And they have personal computers to compete with their discretionary spending, something their parents didn't. These personal computers are capable of doing most of what Wersi want to ask $16k+ for. So it's a tough sell.

Lionstracs are going to eat Wersi for lunch if they don't revise their business model. Mom and Pop are gone to greener pastures, and they are going to have to sell these things to US......

Diki,

A basic Wersi Abacus is all most people would ever need to do what they want. I wanted 76 keys and foot pedals so I opted for the Duo Pro version. The Abacus is around $7,500.00 USD. The Ikarus is also available and it has 76 keys and costs around $5,500.00 USD. One could hardly buy a Tyros 2 and a nice car for that kind of money.

I think you are seriously missing the point when it comes to the Wersi and why they charge so much for their products. The build quality and features rival any arranger made (all metal construction with wood sides, high quality TFT touch screen, lots of real time buttons and sliders). In addition the user interface is so well laid out you won't find another arranger that has so many features that is as easy to use. Until you've used one you won't be able to understand this (Wersi owners know what I am talking about).

Even if you bought the fanciest computer made, loaded it with GB's of RAM, VST's, audio software, and more, it would still not operate like the Wersi. Wersi has their software setup to operate all the features with such ease a small child could run it. To do this required Wersi to write extensive code and integrate VST's into their GUI, all that takes time and costs money. I would hardly call the Wersi incrementally better than a computer running VST's as there is simply no comparison in how the two operate. Wersi = Easy. Computer + VST's = Pain in the ass! Sure a computer system can work great but intuitive it's not.

Lionstracs can and will cost Wersi sales in the near future but not until Lionstracs GUI is as easy to use and factory sounds are on par. Right now Lionstracs offers nearly everything the Wersi has to offer at about half the price of a basic Wersi Abacus. Once Domenik improves the Mediastation sounds and fine tunes the GUI, Wersi will have a much harder time selling instruments. Still the Wersi does have some hardware features like dedicated drawbars but the Mediastation has programmable sliders that can act as drawbars.

It seems that Open Ended Instruments aren't for all people and that's fine. As I aid before, not everyone can afford them, nor do some people need the extensive features. For those of us that do the Wersi and Lionstracs are a great option to the basic arrangers offered by Yamaha, Korg, and Roland.

Ensnareyou,

I'd love to come over your house and see your collection of instruments. You sound like you have quite a collection to keep me busy the whole weekend!

Al

Me too...!

As I said, ensnareyou, I am perfectly happy to be proven wrong about these high priced beasts. I would LOVE to try them out. But, fact is, they are as hard to find and try out (I'm in the panhandle of Florida if anyone close by has one I could try.....) as a test drive in a Bugatti.......!

Videos, good quality MP3s, good hi-res panel shots and downloadable manuals (in English!) would go a long way to spreading the word. If Wersi want to make inroads in the US, all the above need to be addressed.

BTW, I downloaded and listened to the Wersi OAS Yamaha style translation mp3s..... it would be fascinating to hear a side-by-side comparison of the same style on a Tyros2 with no tweaks. Proof of the pudding, and all that......

I have enough keyboards to keep you busy for at least a year! I live on the West Coast though.

I believe there are several Wersi OAS owners in Florida and a few in PA. I think two Louvre's and a Scala. Contact Ralph at Wersi USA and I'm sure he will ask the owners if they'd be willing to show you the instrument. I think you'd be quite amazed when you saw it in person.

i thought that the Wersi/Tyros 2 Conversion demo was really quite good. It had captured the nuances of the instruments just like the T2 but the sound quality was not as high but i suspect thats more to do with the way it was recorded. If Wersi can pull this off with all makes of keyboards then they have moved up to a whole new level in terms of an "open system" . Can anyone tell me if they had to tweak the style after the conversion ?

Well done Wersi.

Hello Spalding 4
As far as I am aware, you just load in the styles and play, with no tweaking required, in fact from the current info available it does NOT convert them to a Wersi Style, but plays them as if they had been loaded into a Yamaha Keyboard.
Hopefully we will have more info when it is released. (Talking to Wersi at the Pakefield Festival, I got the impression that they were also in discussion with other manufactures)
We will just have to wait and see

Bill

Hi Abacus
For my engineer know how, can be impossible load a yamaha styles in another keyboard brand with OUT any conversion.
For load and play direct one Yamaha T2 styles, your system MUST have this features:

1) same pattern number, Intro, Fill, var, ending, stops..
2) same Sound palette Soundbank of the T2, with the same sound program change and sound Variation
3) all the sound palette MUST be programmed and edited with the same Volume setting of the T2
4) must have the same chords algotithms of the T2 or the styles will not have the same chords effects.

So..If Wersi is working to Clone 1 to 1 the T2 sounds with the same programs and variation, then this can be possible, BUT if they will continue holding the actual Wersi soundbank, need a Convertion styles or never can working.

Maybe this will be possible with the Mediastation and the mew GIGA Sampler GM/GS 4.0, because we can programming different GIG soundbank palette and recall it in realtime.
The big work will be find/develope/records the same T2 sounds under GIGA format and then link this all new GIG sounds in the Qsampler Database Soundbank manager, then the MS is able to play direct the T2 styles too.

We get a lot of styles request and a lot people seem that they CANT use well the EMC style converter.

In the next weeks we will delivery the new Windows tool T2 to MS Styles converter too.
This tool will Load a Yamaha style and convert it automatically to Mediastation format. Then we have only to remap the sounds with the MS editor, but the big work to convert styles will done in 2 seconds.

I really think that I must offer this feature too for make happy a lot of MS users.

I thing that will be great advantage of MEDIASTATION users.


Best regards.

OZ

Hi Domenick,
unfortunately I think it's not because people can't use it, its because EMC doesn't really do that great a job of the conversion.

I'm currently going thru the process of converting some of my Ketron SD1+ syles to OMB ( psr .sty format, soundsource is the new SD2 soundmodule) I put the sd style thru emc sd1 to yahama format & came up with a load of rubbish.
Decided to use EMC to save SD1 style as a midifile & used OMB's midi to style conversion & I've got it almost sounding like the original. Unfortunately it's a fair bit of work.

I think it will be fabulous for your clients if you can come up with a really good conversion tool.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
[B]

We get a lot of styles request and a lot people seem that they CANT use well the EMC style converter.

"Hi Domenick,
unfortunately I think it's not because people can't use it, its because EMC doesn't really do that great a job of the conversion"

Thanks for that honest comment Riskibears. I have heard some of these conversions and i honestly have to ask myself if others are hearing what i am hearing !!

But thats what so exciting about this wersi demo of a style conversion because to my ears its sounds very close to the original style played on the original instrument and i congratulate Wersi on spotting a technological advancement that is actually wanted and needed by arranger players in their every day use.

You are right
The EMC use some strange algorithms in the conversion, because have to translate from one source to the destination source format and not the all keyboard will use the same Tracks/patterns.

The best way is make how our Styles T2 to MS Extractor ( and NOT converter) will extract the all patterns NOTE ony to every single midifiles track.
in this way we can have the Real Note line of every patterns, included May, Min, 7th, 7thDim.
16 pattern for 4 chords variation, total 64 Midifiles for one style.( 16X4=64)

The Mediastation arranger right now is able to load/play the all EMC Exported midifile to Seq format and the all single midifiles for each pattern and chords.

After the Note to midifiles export we have only to remap the sounds/volume/chorus/reverb... in the MS arranger editor BUT we don't lose any melodic line of the pattern.
This DO NOT mean that the MS will sounds same like the T2 styles, because we have a different sounds palette to setup.

If the Wersi is working in this way too, then they really choose the right way.
The Wersi arranger in this system can really sounds like the T2 too.

Pity only that the all others embedded brands will not open the system like us and offer you a new advanced open arranger.

Hi Domenick,
sounds great the way you're going about it.

A couple functions I'd luv as a standard in a pattern are
controller 64 sustain ( my ketron has it, my psr doesn't) makes piano patterns sound choppy when a style is converted from one that uses sustain to one that doesn't.
Tempo change, again Ketron uses tempo changes in the Intro's & Endings I'm fairly certain PSR's can't ( within the style itself)
Muliple time signatures ie have a 3/4 in one pattern , a 4/4 in another. OMB as a realtime arranger allows this, but unfortunately doesn't work if the same style is then used in a psr keyboard.
All the different brands have their pluses & minuses in their style structure, by the sounds of things you can create what you want.

Keep listening to your clients.
( unfortunately for time being I can't be one, maybe one day)

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LIONSTRACS:
[B]You are right
The EMC use some strange algorithms

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-21-2006).]

Hi Spalding,
don't get me wrong, I'd be lost without my EMC.
It's the only way I can convert styles from my prior keyboards to my current one. I normally don't use the conversion process though. I usually use export style to midifile, do any editing required in a sequencer, then use midifile to style function in my OMB software for creating a psr style, (or I could use midifile to style function in EMC itself).
For my SD1 I actually use a pc sequencer to record the midifiles across to the sd.
Discovered EMC deletes controllers on SD
patterns.

As for straight conversions, a lot of them are pretty bad. It may depend on what keyboard your converting from & too.
In all fairness it must be pretty hard for emc to keep up with all the new keyboards.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spalding4:
[B

Thanks for that honest comment Riskibears. I have heard some of these conversions and i honestly have to ask myself if others are hearing what i am hearing !!

People you are wrongfully blaming EMC ..This is great software..

The reason the "bad" sounding styles come about...the method of the sounds from the original manufacturer's sounds..For example, with the Ketron X1, the styles conversions that used the strum guitars never did sound right..the fault was the design of the strums..EMC remaps and re-formats the style..it does not edit the sounds...If a converted sound doesn't work..edit the style, or move on...there are a zillion styles to choose from..

Personally I think EMC styleworks is a major reason why top line Arranger keyboards have been so popular..

as I always say " a style is a style"..I would "Not" buy an arranger because I didn't or did like the on board styles..

Just my opinion in support of my old friend Klaus..

Hi Fran,
me personally, I'm not referring to sounds.

For instance, on my SD1, it removes controller 11 from the first beat in a bar
clock 1.0.000.
Normally not a big deal but I never know the default is, because it doesn't show up example: a string chord starts first beat of the bar & does a gradual fadeout, the first that controller 11 can show up is past clock 1.0.004. If the note starts on clock 1.0.000 I'm going to get a glitch.

Quite often when controller 11 is used in a style , strings start really loud for a fraction of a second, then you get this quick drop off in sound ( sounds like a glitch) then it does a smooth fadeout.

Another instance ( SD1 again) if I do happen to convert, my psr styles have to be converted to roland format first, then to sd1 format if I want to have any controllers left in the style at all.

If you have the "plus package" activated (which gives list edit of the style), try loading a psr style with controllers in it. Convert it to sd1 format. Save, load it back in & check the tracks in list edit, the controllers will have disappeared.

If there's one brand that could really benefit, it's the Ketron using EMC with Plus Package for list editing. A lot of the other brands in the top of the line include some sort list edit function for styles . Ketron doesn't.

Main reason why I mainly use EMC to turn a style into a midifile etc etc rather than do a conversion. I need the controllers left in tact.

EMC may well work better for some keyboard formats than others, & even with it's odd quirk here & there , I wouldn't want to be without it. I'd have a house full of old keyboards that I couldn't part with just in case I wanted a style from one of them. Instead I've got a load of old styles that I know I can use if needed because of EMC& the keyboards have gone to owners that wanted them.

best wishes
Rikki



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-21-2006).]

Rikki, I think your example is hardware related again[SD1]..Controller 11 [expression] depends on the maximum setting of the expression..By default the SD1 is 127..Likewise the EMC program is not re designing the style, it is adapting it to conform to the new format [including program changes].
The initial settings will be at default..
Most likely the Roland format readily reads the initial setting quicker and reads the expression correctly..It most likely sets the initial settings , and when the Roland style is reformatted to the SD1..The SD1 reads the properly aligned style, including the Controllers..

It almost sounds like I know what I am talking about...but I am close

Hi Fran,
quite possibly.

I realize EMC is not a designing tool, but the plus package does make it a defacto editing tool ie it gives a full list edit
( similar to microscopic edit in Roland keyboards) It allows the deletion of individual notes & controllers & also notes & controllers can be modified. The only thing that can't be done is additional notes or controllers added to the tracks.
It's great.

My gripe really is that when converting from certain formats to ketron (ie yamaha for one) all controllers are removed not just at the beggining of the style part. ie
if a yammie style has a fade in or out, and it's converted to ketron,
they appear to exist after initial conversion , but after saving the sd conversion & and then reloading it back into EMC , they've all dissapeared.

Ketron ( as you are probably aware) is more than capable of having controllers like expression throughout the pattern. Fade ins fade outs etc maybe it's just a bug in the software & I should complain to Klaus ( haa haa) in my dealings with him, he's always been great.

Apologies to Liontracs for going off topic.

Fran, maybe we aught to move the topic before we get ourselves into trouble.

best wishes
Rikki
p.s.
I luv discussing styles & EMC, though it's never a topic that appears to crop up. Have you tried Klaus's Style Factory??
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fran Carango:
[B]Rikki, I think your example is hardware related again[SD1]..Controller 11 [expression] depends on the maximum setting of the expression..By default the SD1 is 127..

Rikki, you trying to get me banned here...again

Hi Fran,
DEFINATELY NOT!!!
Kinda missed you when you dissapeared last time.
Kinda female thing, you should have learnt , females always have to have the last word. haa haa

If the rumours I'm reading are true about your latest toy , a big congratulations, I'm soooo jealous.


best wishes
Rikki

Jonesyboy, can we please have more impressions, or some sort of "review" of the Mediastation now pleeeeeeaseeeee???

Why not join the General Arranger chat and learn firsthand about the MS? Pretty soon there will be live videos.

See Other Members on the Camfrog General Arranger

Taike.....

exactly the GA chat Forum is really blossoming now....great info first hand...
I dont think you can get better info then from the Person that invented and designed it...

I suggest to Jonesysboy to waiting rewiev here untill he install the new MS ISO 1.3: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/msiso-13-p-124.html

Now we are able to edit and save all the sounds, GM, GIGA, VST...with the desidered volumes and controls, in this way we can levelling any sounds DSP engine with the GM/GS sounds too.
The problems was when we loading new VST or GIGA sounds, to many sounds are programmed with a different GAIN Volume without respect the 0dB Output volume.
Now after SAVED the Patch, we can switch from sounds to sounds engine without Volumes difference.

Some days more and will be ready to download the new GM GIGA soundbank V4, about 6800MB soundfonts and 1600 GIG Instruments.

The MS fun continue always in better...

This is really great.
New futures can make system more independent.

Saving function of volume and other main function of VST is really good.

About another 300 new styles are coming out soon...
Then we have a basic set of 600 styles...

The Mediastation is looking better all the time. And sounding better too.

I don't really like the long boot time but when it finally does boot up it makes it all worth it. The Piano, Elec. Piano, and Organ sounds are very very good thanks to Native Instruments B4 and the Giga Pianos. VSTi's are really the 'wave' of the future (no pun intended ). To have VSTi's internally in one keyboard eliminates the need for an external laptop and an additional master keyboard to accomplish the same thing that the Mediastation does. Kudos to Lionstracs for their innovative approach and design concept.

There is a bit of a problem I foresee down the road with the Mediastation though. The problem is this: The Mediastation has an AMD Sempron 64bit running @ 3.0GHz which is sufficient for running any number of VST software presently but five years from now it may not be enough to run the latest CPU intensive VST software that will be available then i.e. (in five or so years).

What is needed (in my opinion) is for Lionstracs to make the Mediastation's CPU upgradable and also the Motherboard. Since AMD and/or Intel use different Socket formations with each subsequent CPU model they release the Motherboard would need to be replaced too besides the CPU in most cases unless the socket is the same. For instance, I have an Intel Pentium 4 3.4-E GHz CPU (running @ 3.8 GHz speed ), and which utilizes a socket 478. But if I wanted to upgrade to, let's say, an Intel Core 2 Duo processor I would have to also upgrade to a new Motherboard which supports the Core 2 Duo processor i.e. a motherboard with a socket 775 architecture.

Can the Mediastation do this now? I don't think so, right? So if the Processor cannot be upgraded and/or the Motherboard also, the Mediastation may poop out in a few years when more and more CPU intensive VST and other software applications become available and the Mediastion's 'by then' obsolete Processor won't be powerful enough to keep up. So that is my only concern. Sure, the Mediastation is open source and upgradable, but to what degree? The CPU and Motherboard need to be upgradable also, not just other various aspects of the keyboard.

BTW, I could be missing something here. Maybe the CPU and Motherboard can 'already' be upgraded if a person so chooses. But from the info on the Lionstracs web site I did not get that impression at all.

Please advise one way or the other regarding this Domenick.

PS: The Processor i.e. the 'CPU' not the DSP chip {but DSP should be upgradable too, no?"} is the muscle to run the software of the keyboard. Five years from now a 3.0GHz AMD Sempron will be a wimpy obsolete processor on the verge of being put in a museum. Can we agree on this assessment?

So it makes sense for the Mediastation to have the ability to upgrade the CPU and/or Motherboard too. As well as the DSP chip also in my opinion.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 11-27-2006).]

Mike,
I am no expert on cpu's and mainboards but I will answer what I can and maybe Dominek will give more info. First you mentioned the boot up time of the Mediastation. It takes mine about 1 min and 24 secs to completely boot up and begin playing. That doesn't seem that long to me as my windows xp notebook takes a little longer. What are the average boot times for other keyboards? Anyone care to time theirs and let us know?

I understand your question about the Mediastation's upgrade path, that is very important. In fact I would say its one of the Mediastation's strengths. Mine is the MS X-88 Pro it has an AMD Athalon 64 processor 3000+. That's a pretty powerful CPU to start out with. The Main board is a Epox EP-9HDAI Pro http://www.epox-europe.com/products/view.php?product_id=317
It is a 939 socket. The description says that the CPU can be upgraded to an AMD Athalon 64, 4 fx, 64 x2 up to 4800+ with 2.0 GT hypertransport technology.

Also since the Mediastations parts are mostly standard computer parts, It would stand to reason that the mainboard could also be upgraded if the need arrived. However, since Domenik has designed 12 custom daugther boards to drive the Mediastaion, perhaps he will offer more insight into the upgradeability.

Why could the MB and CPU not be upgraded - it is just like any other PC - As long as the format of the board is the same ie, AT or ATX then that is it - new MB/CPU and probably memory - that is it - Dom will correct me if I am wrong b ut the upgrade of the hardware really should not be an issue...
Hope this helps,
Regards
Mark

Motherboards last about 2 years before they become obsolete, and so Lionstracs like Wersi will be using a different Motherboard and CPU during its lifetime, (For instance over 6 years ago when Wersi released their OAS instruments, they used a Celeron 533Mhz CPU and 128Mb of PC133 Ram, the latest instruments use a Sempron 3500+ and 1Gb of DDR Ram, which earlier instruments can easily be upgraded to) and that is the beauty of am open system in that you can always keep upgrading both Hardware and Software without having to change the instrument.
Regarding VSTs, be careful as with some (Particularly the Free ones) as little as 2 or 3 used together will Max out your current CPU.
Hope this helps

Bill

In the Mediastation we can upgrade the CPU and Mainboards too.
In normally production we offer for the X-76 Pro and Expanded the AMD Sempron 64bit, 3000+ and in the X-88 the Athlon 64bit, 3000+.
Of course, IF you will spend much more, you ( or we ) can install the Athlon FX, dualcore too, but the cost of the ONLY CPU can be from 600 to 1200 Euro! depend what you will install.

The Pro and Expanded models have the new Case with the BIG PC hole: http://www.lionstracs.com/site/images/pro/x76proback.jpg
there you can se that we are able to install different mainboards too.
The only Standard mediastation can NOT upgrade the mainboard because we made the Case for the Chaintech MB only, BUT you still can upgrade the CPU, shocket A, 32bit only.
We will continue developing under AMD CPU and NOT Intel, so If you will install one Intel CPU, the OS Installer will ignore it.
AMD support a lot the Linux community and help us to resolve bugs OS software.
Intel is like the Microsoft, to much closed and really slow for Help support and drivers updating.
MS and AMD are open, for that we will not porting the MS to close system.

I had severally times upgraded my MS with new CPU and also I changed motherboard, I reconnected hard disc. I changed also writer to faster. In this way you can change all what you want to change inside.

Also possible thing is ride disc inside. But problematic is space. If you can forget CD than is easy � you can only mount new HD with some small modification.

Here is all possible you must only have idea what to do.

Best regards.

Hey Bill,

Is the Sempron 3500+ and 1Gb of DDR Ram you mentioned above the configuration of your keyboard? What Mainboard is installed? Is it a 754 socket or a 939 socket and how far can you upgrade without changing the main board?

Also, when you mentioned that 2 or 3 Vst's could max out your current CPU, I assume you are referring to Vst's that rely heavily on CPU processing power and that the free ones particularly may be designed less efficiently in that respect.

Can you tell me some that you have found to be CPU "hogs" compared to some that are easier on the cpu or does this apply to most all vst's.

Thanks

Richard

In reference to the Long boot times:

I think this is syptomatic of any PC based workstation as the operating system must load, Vst's must load, etc. etc.

One work around for this is to purchase an Un-interruptible power supply for Live situations. So if some bonehead yanks the power from your keyboard rig, you do not have to re-boot.

I think the Neko has a UPS built internally to address this issue.

I always use one when I play for both the keyboards and the Powered mixer. My powered mixer is especially sensitive to low voltage, so the power conditioner helps maintain constant voltage and protects my equipment.

JMTC
Al