[QUOTE]Originally posted by Booby:
[B]Hi,

in my experience I would like to suggest you to not judge a sound in terms of Gbytes.
A 3 or 4 GB piano it's not for sure better of a smaller one.
I remember one of the best piano I've tried was a small size one, from the Miroslav Vitous collection. While sampling there are too much factors that change the sound (mic type, mic position, pre-amp used, wave editing, etc) and for sure Miroslav big experience (and very good hears) has done a much better job than others around.

Of course this library is now old and most of the current one are far better, anyway what impressed me (but also some friends around) was to understand that these few MB of sample were much better than the fabulous GigaPiano for instance.

Just sharing my ideas.

Regards.

Good post and true too.
Big pianos like bosendorfer 290 and steinway D sounds good ( 1300-1800Mb) but this do NOT mean also that smmall giga pianos around 10-20-30Mb are really sounds good too.
If you look at our last GIGA sounbank 8530:
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/giga-sounbank-8530-p-167.html
we have inside 1670 GIGA Instruments, all around from some 1-2 Mb up yo 100-150Mb max to some big pianos.
We have also a lot of Acustic pianos with 5-10Mb that are sounds good too, just 1 layer but are sounds good.
Then look at the new Hyper drumskits too: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/hyper-drums-p-166.html
20 drumkits all around 20-25Mb only, BUT are SOUND AMAZING!

The concept of GIGA that I mean here is totally different!

IF with your T2 or Korg you have to loading JUST 20-30Mb of data, you have to smoking a couple of Malboro and then you are ready to start to play some and when you have to loading another styles with some MB again...smoking again untill you are ready to play again.

Under the Mediastation is totally different, befause we streaming from HD the all sounds and all in realtime.
30-50Mb of Piano in about 0.5 second! This is the difference.
Of course with the Mediastation you can browse the full GIGA library and link the desidered sounds under one hardware key and recall then when you like in REAL TIME.

Of course some GIGA sounds are not so good for you, but maybe are good for another user.
How you can see in my webpage, we contine also offer new GIGA sounds and in midle this week will be available another 45 Real Drumkits and another 300 Instruments, then we are close to 16.000 Mb of FREE GIGA Library.

What you can do with your T2? Browser the all CLOSED 512 sounds and then smoking ton of BOX just for play some more new sounds?
How much $$ they will ask you just for ONE new sounds?
If you then need have 20-80 new T2 sounds how much you have spend?
Not so much?
then buy one PC laptop too ( just look how many here have it) for playing Mp3 songs because a lot here can NOT play one arranger keyboard.
Someone here need STYLES..STYLES and STYLES, yes, because you need Min of 1000 styles OR tou can NOT cover 3 hours of gig's and other musician need MIDIFILES..MIDIFILES..MP3...MP3...because is more easy and sounds much better.

How Bill say always:
Enjoy whatever you play...

Cheers

If the greatness of an arranger is determined by the factory styles out of the box, then we have gone back in terms of music skill level and technology.
I expect that from a low level Casio but not a high-end arranger.

How lazy are people to want to turn on a keyboard and play with a glorified midi player (that is all a style is) and don’t personalize the style?

The beauty of an arranger is that you don’t have to play a song exactly the way it sounds on the recording.

I would say that if you are using more than 20 styles on a 2 hour gig, then you haven’t figured the secret of an arranger.

If the people who want Out of the box styles with no ability to personalize the style, then maybe they should think about playing midi files on their gigs.

Give me a few good styles and the capability to personalize the styles and to make my own, and I along with most professional arranger players would take that over a keyboard filled with glorified midi files.

Specifically about the new Ketron, With all the new advances of that keyboard, if the keyboard does not have the greatest factory styles OTB but has a lot of features to enhance and personalize ones performance on a gig I suppose the ones who are fighting arranger technology would not consider it an arranger?

Alfa, Domenik, everybody else pushing the MS. Prove me wrong.... PLEASE!

You MUST realize by now just how much squeak is in the minority. VERY, very few of us program our own styles. Sure, a FEW of us might be willing to do some fine tweaking on a style that is 'nearly there', but you can count how many here are willing to roll their own entire style collection on the thumbs of one hand!

What few of us that are complaining about restrictive OSs in the Big 3's TOTL arrangers aren't the market you are needing. The only way to beat the big boys is to offer capabilities beyond their offerings WITHOUT making us compromise on styles to achieve it.

But asking us to want an 'open system' arranger WITHOUT top-of-the-line styles being provided puts it in the hands of the tiny, tiny fraction of arranger users that DO want to roll their own. Maybe you think staying tiny and niche market is good for the company. But the reason Yamaha et al have such big budgets for style development is because they sell to the majority of players that want an arranger.

Sure, we'd LOVE to have better features, too, but first and foremost we want great styles. The only people you hear griping about poor features are the ones that AREN'T griping about poor styles. Without the great styles, who cares about the features...?

We've gone round and round this topic before, but despite several software and soundware revisions, the MS is still, OOTB, a poor comparison to even a PSR3k. At four times the price. If you have ever wondered why this keyboard does not already dominate the market, you ONLY have to listen to the styles - and by the way, you do not need a fancy demo, but you DO need better sounding styles, nobody cares how good the soloist is on the top of the style, but anyone can listen to a style and hear a dog!

Touting the MS's ability to play Yamaha styles (poorly in comparison to a Yamaha) only begs the question 'well, why not just get a Yamaha, and sound BETTER?'

That's a question I'd like to hear an answer to... (other than a Nigel Tufnell-esque 'Yeah......, but these go to 11!)

you definitely have a point but still... the factory styles on the T2 and G70/E80/PA800 are awesome! Factory styles are now at a point where they are completely playable in a live situation and sound live/real/cd quality... the fact that minimal tweaking needs to be done is already a reason to spend AUD 5k + on one of these top end arrangers...

there are always people who like tweaking and customising, so the features are also there for you...

to me those Tyros 2 demos from the Wersi OAS sounded unbelievable but then again, do you really want to pay double or triple the price of a Tyros 2 to improve the sound quality?

That is insulting to anyone that uses a modern TOTL arranger. ALL of the major's arrangers give you EXTENSIVE abilities to personalize the style. But they make it so you don't HAVE to. Unfortunately, the MS is going to make you HAVE to tweak extensively, just to get up to the quality of a PSR3k, yet alone a T2! Plenty of us tweak the factory styles in our T2's and G70's. But most of us realize that if the style is a dog in the first place, you are just t*rd polishing. It's a LOT easier to tweak a great style than a bad one.

And, if you CAN make the MS sound that good, why in heaven's name have Lionstracs not already done it? If creating a style library is SO difficult, and so expensive that they can't afford to do it, how on earth do they expect the majority of their customers to have skills they don't possess themselves...? If the manufacturer can't realize the potential of their own product, what right do they have to demand that we DO..?

The sad thing is, we DO 'get it'. We DO realize what the 'potential' is. We just can't HEAR IT....!

The next thing I want to hear is a style demo that blows me away. Don't bother posting to tell me about the potential. Don't bother posting to tell me how much all the other guy's arranger suck because they are 'closed'. Don't bother posting to tell me I just don't understand the MS.

Either post something that rivals the majors, or just go away until you can.....

I think what u have to understand Diki is that the MS is for an extreme niche market. There will be people who will want it but on the other hand people buy arrangers because they come pre loaded with all the goods...

I for sure would NOT want to spend so much money on a tool that comes with the 'potential' to sound a bit better than something less than half its price...

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-10-2007).]

This is old story new players.

I'm user and I like concept of MS or WERSI or other open source keyboards.
I can tell you that some of members are funny here.

I'm happy if I can make my own style or my own modification of song, because otherwise my keyboard is not usable. In this case I can use mp3 player.

Please don't say that styles are good only from box (even 3 big). Some are really good that is all. Other will be in next edition of new keyboard.

Because of that I'm angry on all this arrangers that are fine in this moment but what happened in next years.

I thing here are some guys. Those are afraid of future (maybe their).

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

And one more thing styles are every day better. In this moment they are incorporating live virtual guitarist, live drummer, live bassist and real instruments. If somebody can do that better you are welcome.

But funny thing is that they are mine. And other players will not play same or maybe.

I’m very proud on people like SQUEAK. Only with this kind of people who are making own personalization can be keyboards better. Otherwise we will be lost in world of DJ’s.

Best regards.


MAGICA ALFA

Well “who the cap fits let them where it”.

I just don’t think that it is correct to imply that most professional gigging arranger players are want to be DJs and depend on a factory style to make them sound good and that they don’t have any understanding of keyboard technology and how to please the audience with their vision of a song.

When we say that the value of a high-end arranger to a professional gigging musician is the OTB styles, it only gives arranger players a bad rap. It says that arranger players don’t understand keyboard technology and that arranger players have no concept as to how to personalize and play an instrument. It puts arranger players in the realm of a DJ.

The fact is that some people just do not want to understand the value and concept of these newer arrangers that are being developed.

To compare the price of a long-lasting mediastation to a regular arranger by just taking in to consideration the styles clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of these newer keyboards.


If I were to sum up these newer arrangers in one word I would use the word INTEGRATION. These newer arrangers allow you to integrate arranger playing, sequenced midi files, mp3s and audio files, CD, videos, sampling, software sounds and standard keyboard playing…..

So on that one gig, you can play with styles, play with just a piano sound, use custom made sounds, when you are on a break play a MP3 or CD and so on all on the same machine.

I think that that is a good value for a gigging musician especially to get major upgrades you don’t necessarily have to by a new board.


Now don’t get me wrong having good styles is important. But to stress picture perfect styles as being the deal breaker between getting one of these newer arrangers is the mentality of a home player and not a professional player.

Having picture perfect CD sounding styles is primarily for home users. After all that is who the arranger market is geared for. And that has been admitted by one of the big manufacturers (remember they would not make 76 keys because they say their target market does not want it).

The professional player is an after thought for a 61 key closed system arranger.

Oddly enough, The manufacturers that have open systems and innovative keyboard features are the ones who have 76 key on their arrangers. Even Korg and Roland, although they have closed systems, are constantly updating their 76 key arrangers. It looks like they are looking out for the professional gigging musician.

But I guess to each his own.

ide like to clarify something if I may about the MS in terms of its arranger capabilities...

put aside the additional features such as MP3 and audio playback from the MS and lets compare it to a Roland E80/G70, Korg PA, yamaha Tyros.

lets classify them all as 100% arrangers just for this argument...

a T2/PA800/E80 each have full blown style creation from scratch as well as editing of existing styles and sounds...

what additional (if any) editing features does the MS have that one of these arrangers cannot do in order to produce a 'better' or more customized style / backing rhythm??

I am quite positive that most OMB artists on this forum are using mainly the factory styles for their backing but I highly doubt they are being left unedited in some form or way, that is becuase all TOTL arrangers have such extensive editing/creation capabilities...

the point i am trying to make here is i am not "trashing" the MS in any way, but the vibe i am getting is that you guys seem to talk about the T2, G70, E80, PA800 as if they were 'weak' arrangers or incompetent for live gigging over the MS...

The MS has awesome features and i am sure there are MUCH MUCH more... but in terms of being an arranger, what can it do more than our TOTL arrangers of today??

I understand your point, but anyway I've no need to change all the sounds every song I play. I rely on the basic sounds of my Pa1X (loading time = 0), than I've added 3 sounds of my need that anyway I load once at the start-up and it's done. This is my real world use actually. If I like, say, a piano sound I load it once and I go for it all the day, not changing it every song. This desperate need to load sounds is not normal in my daylife.



I'm sorry to say you that, despite you may be right or not, you cannot make here advertising for one product despite to others. We know you are part of the Liontracks development team and if Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Ketron will start pushing their product and putting "smoke" over competitors this forum will became soon useless for customers being broken any freedom and transparency policy.
No offence intended, but I would like moderators to look at this (including also other product "pushers" around ....).
I'm sorry, but I believe this forum must remain in customer's hands. Hope other attendants agree on this.



no probs here, Pa1X handle mp3 (play/record) and cd too since 2003, so it's long time we enjoy this feature ....

Ps1: again no offence intended.
Ps2: can someone change this topic name ?!

Again this is just my thought.

Best regards.