please...do not compare "apples" with "strawberries"...even if we like both...

Well if we are going to use that type of apples to oranges logic, what does the Tyros 2 have over the PSR 3000 in terms of editing arranger features.

We expect the manufacturer to listen to the customers but deny him to take part in the discussions on this forum. I find this very odd.

To me it's not the styles but the arrangement that makes the difference. Anyone can play a song but not everyone can make it sound good. A good style doesn't make a bad player sound any better.

Well said Taike

Squeak

Same old lines, same old lack of an EXAMPLES.

If any of the MS 'defenders' could post ONE style mp3 that is better than my G70, well, they probably would have, by now.

It's all very well to say that for a 'professional' arranger player, you COULD sound a lot better than a T2, etc., but apparently, there are NO MS's in the hands of these mythical creatures, because NOT ONE of them has ever posted an example.

Despite my last post, here are the same names, with NOTHING to back up what they say. There's a job in the Bush administration for people with that attitude.....

Talk about stubborn..... First and foremost, this is an ARRANGER forum. GET IT? There is absolutely no point in talking about other 'features' until that one is working. You don't extol the 'rich Corinthian leather' until the engine runs. You don't talk about the integrated mp3 player if the styles SUCK..... GET IT?

I've GOT an mp3 player. Most of us do. I wouldn't pay money for a lousy arranger if it has an mp3 player in it, or even an espresso machine (but I'd be much more interested in the espresso machine!).

I've got a computer DAW. Most of us do. I wouldn't pay a ton of money for a lousy arranger with a DAW built in (still prefer the espresso machine)...

I've got tons of VSTi's. Most of us do. I wouldn't pay a lot more than my G70 for a lousy arranger that could play VSTi's (maybe if it had a Zanex dispenser, I wouldn't CARE that the styles suck!).

If Domenik hasn't figured out by now that features will sell his product to a tiny handful of brave souls that don't really need good styles, and are probably going to use it as a mp3 or MIDI file player in all probability (that's a 'professional DJ', not a pro ARRANGER player), and bypass the vast majority of arranger users that want all his 'features', but ONLY after he stuffs it with TOTL styles first, well, he's doomed, I tell you..... DOOOOOOMED!
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Still waiting to hear a decent style mp3 from all you suckers that claim you DO 'get it'...... or is it you just expect someone ELSE to 'get it', and then want to use THEIR styles? Very 'professional'!

Come on, all you 'pros'..... Bueller.......Bueller........ . . . . . . .

thanks for taking my question seriously...not

INTEGRATION INTEGRATION INTEGRATION

That is what a lot of people don�t seem to get with these newer arrangers. To say that one already has a computer, VSTs, an mp3 player, a CD player so there is no need for a Mediastation, shows that the concept of the mediastation is not understood.

Sure I have a computer, VSTs an MP3 player an arranger all separate. I really don�t want to carry all of them on a gig. What the mediastation and now the new Ketron hope to do is to eliminate having to carry a lot of things on a gig.

If you can use sounds from almost any source (VSTs, samples) in a style or as a right or left hand part all on one keyboard, that is a major improvement from having to carry an arranger, a computer on a gig an trying to get that set-up to work.

You can also use audio sound clips to enhance the gig. And now with the new Ketron, you can INTEGRATE audio loops in to a style. Also, some of these newer arranger are getting to the place where you can play other manufacturers styles on their keyboard.

If I use a VST in a recording and I want to perform the song at a gig, the keyboard that allows me to play VSTs on an arranger is good.

If the value of an arranger is just the OTB styles, then the Tyros 2, G70 and PA1X, Genesys are over priced.

Because I could bet you that if you get a real good arranger player and entertainer, and give him one night on a Tyros 2 and another night on a Radio shack keyboard, the reaction from the audience to the styles would be the same.

The good keyboard/arranger players really do not need stellar OTB styles. They have the knowledge and skills to make the styles their own and work for them on stage. If people are so dependent on OTB styles on an arranger then they probably are not as proficient on a keyboard as they claim to be. I know that may sound harsh but there is no other reason for the constant crying for perfect factory styles.

If I had a mediastation, I would not upload a demo because no matter what is done there does not appear to be a real effort to understand the concept of these newer high-end arrangers.

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The good keyboard/arranger players really do not need stellar OTB styles. They have the knowledge and skills to make the styles their own and work for them on stage. If people are so dependent on OTB styles on an arranger then they probably are not as proficient on a keyboard as they claim to be. I know that may sound harsh but there is no other reason for the constant crying for perfect factory styles.
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Harsh??? Yeah that may be a little harsh, but I have to admit it also makes sense. That's why I've said that IMO some are "too reliant" on the perfect style. To be honest one of the negative stereotypes associated with arranger is due to the heavy reliance on the "preset" styles. Again I've heard many demos on this forum that were so clearly 95% preset style based, and the user playing overtop of it. Me I like to hear more of someone's "personal flavor" to the styles. Again just my opinion..... I also understand that many aren't into editing either, which is really IMO what arrangers are also designed for. It's again the "out of the box" experience here.

Squeak

To integrate ALL these features, FIRST you have to start with a great arranger. THEN you integrate the other stuff. As I said, a world class DAW grafted onto a poor arranger is no bargain.

And a poor arranger is one that comes with poor styles, poor sounds, and makes you make all your own. Purists may disagree, but short of a couple of demonstrators and guys that do NOT use an arranger for a general purpose gigs, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON here admits to ONLY using self-created styles.

In fact, the quality of the OOTB styles, and the sounds they use are the primary topic for discussion here, and the primary reason anyone chooses one arranger over another. Of course, this is only the real world, NOT that fantasy place Dom and Alfa live in, where everyone only uses self-made styles, is incredibly talented at creating new styles, and has a world-class sampling and sequencing lab at their disposal.

That's a real good example of a good entertainer needing only a Radio Shack arranger to entertain. So if this is true, why on earth would he spend even MORE for an MS? According to you, it makes no difference. PLEASE.....

First of all, Genesys, do you actually have an MS? If not, according to Dom and others that do, you are in no better position to praise it than we are to damn it. Somehow, magically, posted specs and demos mean nothing unless you actually OWN one (good marketing hype, there!). Sick demos of lame styles only go to show how much better YOU could make it, NOT how poor it actually is.... (Bush could sure use these guys right about now.....!)

Apparently, the lamer the demo, the more it proves how good the MS is.... Dom needs to hire me. I bet with considerable effort, I could actually make something that sounded even WORSE! Sales will go through the roof! Yamaha's board of directors will commit seppuku! Linux will buy out Microsoft! Arab and Jew will dance in the streets together! The lamb will lie down with the lion!

And trust me, the first thing I EVER hear out of the MS that actually lives up to the hype, I will GLADLY be the first to say it (and put my order in). I have nothing against the MS, only its' continued unfulfilled promise. OK, I take that back. I need to hear maybe a hundred styles that rock me (like I would get out of any other TOTL arranger) and THEN I'll take it back!

Strange that the guys that DON'T own an MS are the ones coming to it's defense, but mostly deafening silence from those that DO..... Hmmmmmm.......

Just to be clear, I do not have a mediastation. Also, I am not an apologist to the mediastation.

I just don�t like when people keep insulting and belittling us professional arranger players.

I and I suppose along with most other professional arrangers players would never buy an arranger just based on whether or not the OTB styles are TOTL. To me that is just ridiculous and a waste of money.

When I got my Genesys that was not even a consideration for me.

I buy an arranger so that I can make it my own. I am not just talking about making a style from scratch, but taking an existing style or parts of a style and putting my own personal touch.

On a gig, the styles I use are custom styles, which could be styles made from scratch or modified onboard styles.

I buy an arranger to last me a good 5-7 years. I build my custom sounds and personal style library. This way, my audience get to know me by my sound. Unlike some people, I don�t buy a keyboard to change in 2 years.

The technology on these newer arrangers to me is not the problem. It is whether or not they are easy to use on the fly and whether they are reliable which are the gripes I have with the Genesys.

The example I used with a Radio Shack keyboard support my point because how many pro musicians do you know who gig with a radio shack arranger. Probably none or not many. You know why because although they can probably use the keyboard just based on the styles, they know that there is much much more to a professional arranger that just OTB styles. Features is a major consideration.